Forced to stand for pledge

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In 25 years I've never had a student not stand, but I wouldn't make one stand IF the reason was valid.

OP, did your child explain to the teacher the reason behind the choice?

As an agent of the government (teacher working in a public school) you may not compel political speech. You don't get to decide what reasons are valid because you cannot compel political speech-no exceptions. If you don't understand that I strongly encourage you to take a class in US constitutional history as part of your professional development.

If you ask, ACLU will come do a First Amendment training for your school. It's something I've helped with pro bono.

I've also found my local ACLU very helpful and responsive. And, for teens in public school, this video is very informative (and boring). I would highly recommend watching it with your teen and discussing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6ghXMtooV8

[Anonymous]

Standing is part of the salute. So having to stand out of “respect for the other kids” = having to do part of the salute out of “respect for the other kids.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone here feel that asking kids to stand and recite the pledge to our flag every day smacks a bit of fascism? Like... why do little kids need to swear allegiance every day before school? I love our country but I do think there’s big difference between patriotism and nationalism. And then, when they get older, we have these pep rallies where the kids all stamp their feet and chant and get revved up for the big game... ugh.

YES! I won't do it, and I won't make my kids do it. I was born overseas (as an American citizen) and lived abroad for much of my childhood and found it so bizarre when I started in school in the US that students were made to do this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Standing is part of the salute. So having to stand out of “respect for the other kids” = having to do part of the salute out of “respect for the other kids.”

+1 As I understand it, this is why many Jehovah Witness family have their children leave the room during the pledge, because participating by standing is still participating.

[Anonymous]

Go to Iran

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Go to Iran

Because in the US, you aren't allowed to criticize the government or ask questions about it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Standing is part of the salute. So having to stand out of “respect for the other kids” = having to do part of the salute out of “respect for the other kids.”

Sorry

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think there is a difference between standing respectfully with hands at your side and placing your hand over your heart to “salute” and “pledge” to the flag... sitting down is a political statement. How old a child are we talking about?

So what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think there is a difference between standing respectfully with hands at your side and placing your hand over your heart to “salute” and “pledge” to the flag... sitting down is a political statement. How old a child are we talking about?

Which is exactly why the public school can't make the kid stand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there is a difference between standing respectfully with hands at your side and placing your hand over your heart to “salute” and “pledge” to the flag... sitting down is a political statement. How old a child are we talking about?

Which is exactly why the public school can't make the kid stand.

This thread is like groundhog day. I really encourage everyone who hasn't read to read

State of West Virginia Board of Education v Barnette

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/319/624
"The Fourteenth Amendment, as now applied to the States, protects the citizen against the State itself and all of its creatures -- Boards of Education not excepted. These have, of course, important, delicate, and highly discretionary functions, but none that they may not perform within the limits of the Bill of Rights. That they are educating the young for citizenship is reason for scrupulous protection of Constitutional freedoms of the individual, if we are not to strangle the free mind at its source and teach youth to discount important principles of our government as mere platitudes."
and
"There is no mysticism in the American concept of the State or of the nature or origin of its authority. We set up government by consent of the governed, and the Bill of Rights denies those in power any legal opportunity to coerce that consent."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there is a difference between standing respectfully with hands at your side and placing your hand over your heart to “salute” and “pledge” to the flag... sitting down is a political statement. How old a child are we talking about?

Which is exactly why the public school can't make the kid stand.

This thread is like groundhog day. I really encourage everyone who hasn't read to read

State of West Virginia Board of Education v Barnette

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/319/624
"The Fourteenth Amendment, as now applied to the States, protects the citizen against the State itself and all of its creatures -- Boards of Education not excepted. These have, of course, important, delicate, and highly discretionary functions, but none that they may not perform within the limits of the Bill of Rights. That they are educating the young for citizenship is reason for scrupulous protection of Constitutional freedoms of the individual, if we are not to strangle the free mind at its source and teach youth to discount important principles of our government as mere platitudes."
and
"There is no mysticism in the American concept of the State or of the nature or origin of its authority. We set up government by consent of the governed, and the Bill of Rights denies those in power any legal opportunity to coerce that consent."

If OP were serious, we might take this thread more seriously. But posting on a Sunday in April? That's not serious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think there is a difference between standing respectfully with hands at your side and placing your hand over your heart to “salute” and “pledge” to the flag... sitting down is a political statement. How old a child are we talking about?

PP here-I appreciate the thoughtful discourse in response to my statement. Thank you for sharing your perspectives. I am not overly patriotic myself, and I don’t agree with my child being forced to pledge allegiance, especially as I believe my own child is too young to understand any of it. That being said, I do appreciate the ACLU and the deeper explanations given to me about why even standing should not be made mandatory. While my personal opinion may differ with regard to what is respectful to others. (As an example, I don’t believe in God but I do not allow my child to use the expression “oh my god” because I feel it is disrespectful to those who do believe.) Anyway. Thank you for the additional education as to how if sitting is political, than that is a good enough reason to not require standing. I’m not sure I agree that standing is part of the salute...since that is absolutely ableist...and plenty of paralyzed service men and women still salute the flag without standing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there is a difference between standing respectfully with hands at your side and placing your hand over your heart to “salute” and “pledge” to the flag... sitting down is a political statement. How old a child are we talking about?

PP here-I appreciate the thoughtful discourse in response to my statement. Thank you for sharing your perspectives. I am not overly patriotic myself, and I don’t agree with my child being forced to pledge allegiance, especially as I believe my own child is too young to understand any of it. That being said, I do appreciate the ACLU and the deeper explanations given to me about why even standing should not be made mandatory. While my personal opinion may differ with regard to what is respectful to others. (As an example, I don’t believe in God but I do not allow my child to use the expression “oh my god” because I feel it is disrespectful to those who do believe.) Anyway. Thank you for the additional education as to how if sitting is political, than that is a good enough reason to not require standing. I’m not sure I agree that standing is part of the salute...since that is absolutely ableist...and plenty of paralyzed service men and women still salute the flag without standing.

Have you ever seen "Please stand if you are able"?

[Anonymous]

I cannot believe that this many people on this board are offended by the Pledge. That is a shame.

[Anonymous]

I think it's fascinating that the consensus to support standing is that it is done out of respect for the other students. I've always stood for the Pledge (and the National Anthem), but it never crossed my mind to do it for others around me. In my mind it was always done to honor the service and sacrifice of those who have fought to achieve and preserve my liberty.