Forced to stand for pledge

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a Citizen now but was born in a different country and have dual citizenship. I don't like saying the pledge of allegiance. However, when I am in a situation where it is being said I will stand up with everyone us and face the flag and stand quietly out of respect.
You should teach your child to do the same OP. You can be respectful without " saluting" or " pledging"

+1 I’m respectful in all sorts of situations I disagree with.

[Anonymous]

Was your kid actually forced? Or did they just tell him to, and he did it? There's a difference, you know. I would find out, as this is not legal, but if so, are you prepared to complain and/or possibly take the issue further? Do you have the guts? Or did you just feel like complaining on DCUM about it for some attention?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would complain to the school administration and point out that the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in West Virginia v. Barnette that students cannot be compelled to salute the flag or say the pledge of allegiance in public schools and that compelling a student to do so is illegal and a violation of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. For the teacher who did this, let it be a teachable moment. OP, not that it matters, but are you prohibited by your religion from saluting the flag or saying the pledge? America is and should be the refuge for freedom of conscience.

More accurately, the Supreme Court ruled that public schools cannot compel students to salute the flag or say the pledge of allegiance. OP, did this happen in a public school or in a private school?

[Anonymous]

In 25 years I've never had a student not stand, but I wouldn't make one stand IF the reason was valid.

OP, did your child explain to the teacher the reason behind the choice?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In 25 years I've never had a student not stand, but I wouldn't make one stand IF the reason was valid.

OP, did your child explain to the teacher the reason behind the choice?

That's not how it works. You can't make a student stand, period, even if you think that the reason is invalid. From West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette:

Here, it is the State that employs a flag as a symbol of adherence to government as presently organized. It requires the individual to communicate by word and sign his acceptance of the political ideas it thus bespeaks. Objection to this form of communication, when coerced, is an old one, well known to the framers of the Bill of Rights.

It is also to be noted that the compulsory flag salute and pledge requires affirmation of a belief and an attitude of mind. It is not clear whether the regulation contemplates that pupils forego any contrary convictions of their own and become unwilling converts to the prescribed ceremony, or whether it will be acceptable if they simulate assent by words without belief, and by a gesture barren of meaning. It is now a commonplace that censorship or suppression of expression of opinion is tolerated by our Constitution only when the expression presents a clear and present danger of action of a kind the State is empowered to prevent and punish. It would seem that involuntary affirmation could be commanded only on even more immediate and urgent grounds than silence. But here, the power of compulsion is invoked without any allegation that remaining passive during a flag salute ritual creates a clear and present danger that would justify an effort even to muffle expression. To sustain the compulsory flag salute, we are required to say that a Bill of Rights which guards the individual's right to speak his own mind left it open to public authorities to compel him to utter what is not in his mind.

[Anonymous]

I taught in a school that had some Jehovah's Witness families. They do not say pledge.

Our principal had a rule--no one had to say the pledge, but all had to stand out of respect for the other kids in the class. If they objected, they were allowed to go out of the room and wait in the hall.

At the Olympics, when the national anthems are played, I'm pretty sure that all people stand out of respect.

[Anonymous]

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask everyone to stand out of respect. Not for the flag, but for the other students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In 25 years I've never had a student not stand, but I wouldn't make one stand IF the reason was valid.

OP, did your child explain to the teacher the reason behind the choice?

As an agent of the government (teacher working in a public school) you may not compel political speech. You don't get to decide what reasons are valid because you cannot compel political speech-no exceptions. If you don't understand that I strongly encourage you to take a class in US constitutional history as part of your professional development.

[Anonymous]

I don' know of any other countries that require citizens to affirm their allegiance to the country before regular sports games and daily for school children.

I grew up in the US. It was not weird at all to me until I spent years abroad before coming back. It is very weird, guys.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don' know of any other countries that require citizens to affirm their allegiance to the country before regular sports games and daily for school children.

I grew up in the US. It was not weird at all to me until I spent years abroad before coming back. It is very weird, guys.

+1 Agree. I go back many generations as an American and still find it very weird to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In 25 years I've never had a student not stand, but I wouldn't make one stand IF the reason was valid.

OP, did your child explain to the teacher the reason behind the choice?

As an agent of the government (teacher working in a public school) you may not compel political speech. You don't get to decide what reasons are valid because you cannot compel political speech-no exceptions. If you don't understand that I strongly encourage you to take a class in US constitutional history as part of your professional development.

If you ask, ACLU will come do a First Amendment training for your school. It's something I've helped with pro bono.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone here feel that asking kids to stand and recite the pledge to our flag every day smacks a bit of fascism? Like... why do little kids need to swear allegiance every day before school? I love our country but I do think there’s big difference between patriotism and nationalism. And then, when they get older, we have these pep rallies where the kids all stamp their feet and chant and get revved up for the big game... ugh.

We spent two years overseas (UK) and when my kids would tell their classmates about this practice, they were horrified! It was definitely an eye-opener. Also interesting b/c obviously their church of England state school had prayer in school and that was not an issue. But the pledging allegiance to our flag was seen as truly bizarre.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don' know of any other countries that require citizens to affirm their allegiance to the country before regular sports games and daily for school children.

I grew up in the US. It was not weird at all to me until I spent years abroad before coming back. It is very weird, guys.

+1 Agree. I go back many generations as an American and still find it very weird to do.

I am the PP. Let me be clear, I don't think this means the US is a fascist state, or that people who do not find it odd are brainless sheep, or anything like that.

I can just see why someone who is a dual citizen -- which is entirely legal in the US, and is permitted without disfavor in our legal system -- would be uncomfortable saying the pledge in contexts that are not specific to citizenship (such as a citizenship swearing in). That doesn't mean they are not committed to upholding the ideals to which they are pledged.

[Anonymous]

My kids went through stages of not standing for the pledge but were never forced. They, like most of their peers in their public school certainly knew they had that absolute right. I disagree tgat it is required for all to stand as a shoe of respect for those who choose to stand as a corollary would be to sit to honor those who chose to exercise their freedom to not.

I personally find the pledge to be the opposite of patriotism as the act of upholding our Nation’s values comes from what is done w/o force moreso than from a communal shaming

[Anonymous]

I think there is a difference between standing respectfully with hands at your side and placing your hand over your heart to “salute” and “pledge” to the flag... sitting down is a political statement. How old a child are we talking about?