Ivy League Aspirations Unleashed (NYT Q&A with Harvard's DofA)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
When I read posts that include references to UC, UVA, U of Chicago, Williams, Amherst, Wellesley, etc., then I will see parents looking at the bigger picture instead of being fixated on Ivies.

I can speak only from the experience that I and my schoolmates had (I am the previous poster who asked about the source of the "new thinking"), but many of those who do go to the Wellesleys and Chicagos and Mount Holyokes and Williams have also applied to the Ivies and more often than not, are not turning down an Ivy acceptance to go there. It is not hard to see why. For good or bad, the life-time "benefits" of attending an Ivy are enormous-- not just from the education, but from the network and brand-name in graduate applications and in job applications.
This obsession is undoubtedly self-perpetuating, but it is there now for good or bad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From these threads and everyone's push for Ivies, I keep hearing about how success is measured by becoming a lawyer, etc.

It is overall happiness with oneself and his/her goals. But it's silly to think that the Ivies have the edge on turning out well-balanced, happy people.

Maybe posters need to state what constitutes success in their posts.

I am the above poster again.

Certainly there is no reason to believe that the Ivies are going to turn out more well-balanced or happier people than the non-Ivies. There is no reason to believe the opposite either, though.
Success can also a complicated concept because it's not like you decide what that is at one point in time but rather, it evolves depending on what transpires before. Success, right out of grad school, meant something very different (ie, getting a great first placement) than it does 11 years after the fact. Nevertheless I am sure that many people include respect at work, income, the job's consistency with their private life, enjoyment of their work and their being valued at their job, as integral to being "successful".

[Anonymous]

pp has differentiated nicely. The idea of what success is does change over time. Still, kids coming out of school want to get a job -- that is even harder than ever in today's economy. Therefore, they should try to get into the best school possible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If someone is going to do the 5 hours of homework in high school -- they're certainly not going to shoot for an average college...they're going to shoot for the top. And, parents should not decide for their kids to shoot for something smaller unless it comes down to cost. Even then, a lot of privates are offering better aid now than the publics that are revoking merit scholarships as we speak because of state budget cuts.

I think some of the people responding on these posts don't have a kid at a private school; if they did -- they would know what the score is relative to homework hours and the likes.

Interesting question -- is the issue here that people are paying for a top private, and this "money's worth" issue, if you will, is more likely to make you want to go to an Ivy? Or is the issue the 5 hrs of homework a night, which another kind of investment, but is obviously not limited to the top privates -- the top publics (Whitman, Blair, TJ) are absolutely the same. So is it going private that leads to Ivy Obsession, or doing 5 hours a night of homework at either private or public? Or either and both?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
When I read posts that include references to UC, UVA, U of Chicago, Williams, Amherst, Wellesley, etc., then I will see parents looking at the bigger picture instead of being fixated on Ivies.

I can speak only from the experience that I and my schoolmates had (I am the previous poster who asked about the source of the "new thinking"), but many of those who do go to the Wellesleys and Chicagos and Mount Holyokes and Williams have also applied to the Ivies and more often than not, are not turning down an Ivy acceptance to go there. It is not hard to see why. For good or bad, the life-time "benefits" of attending an Ivy are enormous-- not just from the education, but from the network and brand-name in graduate applications and in job applications.
This obsession is undoubtedly self-perpetuating, but it is there now for good or bad.

Wellesley grad here. Never applied to an Ivy. I applied Early Decision, got in, and was done with the senior year drama on December 15th, while some of my friends twisted in the wind all spring about whether they would get off the wait list at Princeton (such a shock for the class valedictorian. He was a pretty bland guy, so I can't imagine the interview went too well).

Perhaps it is the same warped values that led me to apply ED to Wellesley, which was my first choice, instead of chasing after Ivies that have caused me to enroll my children in private school for - gasp! - the liberal arts education. Those same warped values also make me think that [WARNING: 20+ year old school data coming] if they want to do film, I hope they apply to NYU film school, or if they want to continue liberal arts education, they apply to Wellesley, Williams or Oberlin, or if they are into hard core math or science, they apply to MIT or CalTech, etc. If they apply to Ivies, I hope it is because they want to go there for a specific reason. Just as one of them has figured out she couldn't care less about Ugg boots because she thinks they look stupid, I hope they both figure out you pick the school that fits you, not for the brand status. If it's Harvard, I will happily write the check. If it's Georgetown School of Foreign Service, I will happily write that check, too. If it's Wellesley, I will skip to the post office with the check.

Not all of us send our kids to competitive schools because, for us, it's Harvard or bust. I can't be the only oddball out there. As for the non-Ivy curse, maybe I would have been president if I went to Harvard, but this strictly middle class little girl thinks growing up and getting to the place where I can send two kids to private and give to the annual fund, etc., even without counting on DH's salary, is something I can live with.

[Anonymous]

Absolutely right, pp. I get concerned when I seem to read posts that are all about the names and not about the fit or the focus. Just sub "'Smith" for "Wellesley" and our thoughts are identical. Kids should go to schools that specialize in their interests and not just for the name.

For me, it was about getting a woman's education as I knew I'd be competing against men in my professional life and knowing I wanted my own company. I think if I went to an Ivy (and was accepted to them), I would not have turned out as well - or as happy.

[Anonymous]

I would bet that most of those posting on this thread have young, very young, children, so you are still in the fantasy stage of parenting where you think the sky is the limit for children as special as yours. I have had three children go through private schools, two are in Ivies, and I will tell you that none of it matters. NONE OF IT. The social life at the Ivies I know about is extremely disappointing for any kid that is even slightly normal. The most normal smart kids are at the smaller liberal arts schools, which are not the brick walls you are trying to scale. You should give your kids a break while you still can.

[Anonymous]

As an Ivy grad married to an Ivy grad, we would prefer that our child not select an Ivy school when it comes time. Preference is for him to be a big fish in a small pond and be at a school where he either gets lots of attention from professors, not TAs, or a college that specializes in what interests him.

Part of this change is due to the fact that the Ivies have changed - and not really in a good way. You used to go to study with a specific professor. Not anymore. It is more of a factory now and the emphasis is on R and D. You find yourself lumped into a class of 500+ valedictorians. Unless you are really exceptional, most kids experience extreme competition while disappearing into the class without distinction. It is hard for someone who is used to standing out to go into a situation where he is just like everyone else - or worse.

It really is all about the fit.

[Anonymous]

21:47 and 5:45
Thank you, thank you.

[Anonymous]

Negative and more negative two PPs...let me get my baby cradle out for you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
When I read posts that include references to UC, UVA, U of Chicago, Williams, Amherst, Wellesley, etc., then I will see parents looking at the bigger picture instead of being fixated on Ivies.

I can speak only from the experience that I and my schoolmates had (I am the previous poster who asked about the source of the "new thinking"), but many of those who do go to the Wellesleys and Chicagos and Mount Holyokes and Williams have also applied to the Ivies and more often than not, are not turning down an Ivy acceptance to go there. It is not hard to see why. For good or bad, the life-time "benefits" of attending an Ivy are enormous-- not just from the education, but from the network and brand-name in graduate applications and in job applications.
This obsession is undoubtedly self-perpetuating, but it is there now for good or bad.

Wellesley grad here. Never applied to an Ivy. I applied Early Decision, got in, and was done with the senior year drama on December 15th, while some of my friends twisted in the wind all spring about whether they would get off the wait list at Princeton (such a shock for the class valedictorian. He was a pretty bland guy, so I can't imagine the interview went too well).

I am the poster who you replied to. Well, as you see I did not indicate that each and every Wellesley applicant has applied to an Ivy. But many of them have. As I wrote, it's based on my growing up experiences-- people in my neighborhood and people in my schools (private for HS, pub all the way before).
I guess I understand from your post that you too knew similar people -- such as the (unsuccessful?) Princeton applicant.

I am trying to keep my posts balanced. We are all aware of the unhealthy obsession that the Ivies have come to be. In "my time" it was already present, but it is nothing like it is now. My husband is foreign (German) and did not do any of his college/grad school here. I know that we will never be one of their double-legacy beneficiaries for our kids' education and I am quite fine with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
When I read posts that include references to UC, UVA, U of Chicago, Williams, Amherst, Wellesley, etc., then I will see parents looking at the bigger picture instead of being fixated on Ivies.

I can speak only from the experience that I and my schoolmates had (I am the previous poster who asked about the source of the "new thinking"), but many of those who do go to the Wellesleys and Chicagos and Mount Holyokes and Williams have also applied to the Ivies and more often than not, are not turning down an Ivy acceptance to go there. It is not hard to see why. For good or bad, the life-time "benefits" of attending an Ivy are enormous-- not just from the education, but from the network and brand-name in graduate applications and in job applications.
This obsession is undoubtedly self-perpetuating, but it is there now for good or bad.

Wellesley grad here. Never applied to an Ivy. I applied Early Decision, got in, and was done with the senior year drama on December 15th, while some of my friends twisted in the wind all spring about whether they would get off the wait list at Princeton (such a shock for the class valedictorian. He was a pretty bland guy, so I can't imagine the interview went too well).

I am the poster who you replied to. Well, as you see I did not indicate that each and every Wellesley applicant has applied to an Ivy. But many of them have. As I wrote, it's based on my growing up experiences-- people in my neighborhood and people in my schools (private for HS, pub all the way before).
I guess I understand from your post that you too knew similar people -- such as the (unsuccessful?) Princeton applicant.

I am trying to keep my posts balanced. We are all aware of the unhealthy obsession that the Ivies have come to be. In "my time" it was already present, but it is nothing like it is now. My husband is foreign (German) and did not do any of his college/grad school here. I know that we will never be one of their double-legacy beneficiaries for our kids' education and I am quite fine with that.

I fail to see how you are trying to keep your posts balanced. Rather, it seems as though you are trying to perpetuate the Ivy or Bust mentality. You assume graduates of other "lesser" colleges must not have gotten in to an Ivy, and that they are somehow screwed for life because of it.

I actually didn't know anybody at Wellesley who applied to an Ivy, but maybe it was because we were all busy getting a great education instead of moaning about how our lives were over unless we could manage to get the Harvard halo by marrying a Harvard man (because let's be honest: that's the real stereotype in your head). I attended public all the way through. Actually, the Princeton guy finally got off the waitlist, and my best friend turned down Harvard for MIT. Others in my GT program went to the Ivies, including a hefty batch to Penn. Another good friend turned down an Ivy and U of Chicago to go to G'town's foreign service program. I can't think of anybody, actually, from the GT program who did not end up at the school he or she wanted. I'm sure if all of us had been told from the beginning that we abolutely had to get into one of the Ivies or our lives would be over, some of us would have been disappointed. Luckily, nobody was spouting such foolishness. We chose schools we wanted to attend.

My favorite story, btw, about Ivy ridiculousness was when someone else who was a summer intern at the same place I was interning went on and on about what a disaster it was that I didn't go to an Ivy. After all, how would I ever get a decent job? I pointed out that we were having that conversation in the lunch room at the exact same place of work, and then compared grad school student loan debt with him. He's the one who walked away feeling sick.

[Anonymous]

It seems a lot of people are writing rants about their favorite 7 sisters university -- that doesn't really help those of us with boys.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It seems a lot of people are writing rants about their favorite 7 sisters university -- that doesn't really help those of us with boys.

It's the exact same paradigm. You can either tell him he must get into an Ivy or you can help him pick a school that fits him. The conversations above happen to be taking place in the context of of a seven sisters school, but those were not the only schools singled out for disdain. I believe the poster also said people going to the University of Chicago weren't turning down Ivies to do so. So, let's say your son really believes in the whole Chicago School of Economics thing. Do you let him run with it, or do you believe he should go there only if he is not deemed good enough for an Ivy?

[Anonymous]

Most people applying to Ivies aren't going to get in anyway -- even if it is their big dream to go to one. So, parents can be helpful in presenting these other great options. US News & World Report has national and liberal arts college rankings online for free. There are some really good schools in the top 20 that rare much easier to get into (i.e. have much higher admissions rate percentages)...check out John Hopkins, U of Chic and NW with fairly high admission rate percentages.