Why so much hate with EOTP vs WOTP parents

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I lived WOTP before buying in Shepherd Park. Why is comparing them a stretch? I am really curious. Other than WOTP has fewer AAs ans houses are about $100-$200k more, crime is similar, schools are similar. Please do tell how they are "so far apart"?

Different poster. In my experience, crime is higher and schools are lower in SP than in most neighborhoods WOTP. I think the differences go far beyond race and price. I think you are being disingenuous, or maybe you're just mistaken.

NP. Schools, plural?? There is only one school in SP that is different than WOTP, Shepherd elementary (GS rating same or higher than any WOTP). SP's middle is Deal (better than Hardy for half of "WOTP) and high school is Wilson (same as WOTP). And crime, I think you may want to actually compare crime/heat maps before making such assertions. Shepherd Park/Colonial Village/ North Portal Estates looks no different than a majority of WOTP, better than places like Georgetown. Looks like you're the one that is mistaken/disingenuous. What, exactly is your experience?

My experience is that I lived EOTP for 10+ years within a mile or so of Shepherd Park, I spent a lot of time in Shepherd Park and the surrounding areas, and I have several friends who still live there. I'm not knocking Shepherd Park at all. It's a great neighborhood. I think it's inaccurate for PP to say the only differences between Shepherd Park and WOTP neighborhoods are the racial breakdown and a price break on houses, or that crime and schools are similar, so I corrected that. I am not sure why that caused you to come out swinging at me.

To bring some concrete information to the discussion, I looked up some statistics for us. I focused on Shepherd Park and surrounding neighborhoods like Colonial Village vs the neighborhoods across the Park around Lafayette Elementary such as Barnaby Woods and Hawthorne. Because those two areas a directly across the Park from one another, they should give a pretty clear comparison.

Crime
Comparing Police Service Area Crimes for the Past Two Years
Shepherd Park area (Service Area 401) 1,153 total crimes
Lafayette area (Service Area 201) 522 total crimes
http://mpdc.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/mpdc/publication/attachments/map_24x24_citywide_2014.pdf

Schools
Reading & Math Proficiency (per DC CAS results 2014)
Shepherd Park Elementary 73% / 76%
Lafayette Elementary 88% / 91%
http://dcps.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dcps/publication/attachments/2014%20DC%20CAS%20Presentation.pdf

No one's discounting Shepherd Park. I'll let people make their own judgments on whether there is any difference.

The areas of crime you are pulling (401) included Shepherd Park as well as Far East parts of Takoma (off Eastern Ave). Again, not apples to apples. What is your incentive to make Shepherd Park look bad? Do you think if SP is considered a good neighborhood it will reduce the value of your house? Really, I'm trying to understand your angle here.

Schools stats you quoted underscores how strong Shepherd is being that the scores are about 15 points lower than Lafayette, however they have 1/3 of its population FARM and Lafayette is in single digits. How does one spending time in a sleepy, residential neighborhood (assuming visiting friends) qualify you to say "in my experience"?

I've got no angle whatsoever. Some PP (you?) posted something inaccurate, based on my experience living near Shepherd Park, so I commented. You decided to challenge me, so I posted some raw data supporting my opinion. You seem to want to fight about it, but I have no interest in fighting. Maybe you should explain what makes you such an expert on how WOTP and EOTP compare, and then post some data to support your views. Until then, I'm done. You can have the last word for now, so flame away.

This is a different poster but anyone can post data. There is enough data out here on the internet to support anyone's position. My point is pull the right data that is not biased by useless calculations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You know I don't think sp parents are scary because some of them are black, right? I feel compelled to ask, because I have noticed that racial stuff here is so much more fraught than where we came from. (Which had the same demographic mix, roughly--although with more blended families.)

I think sp parents can be scary because a lot of them are just as hyper-competitive, obsessed with "stem," Kumon, and test prep as any affluent community: from Bethesda to Bellevue.

I can't argue with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please read this string of posts. The SP booster initially said that comparing SP and neighborhoods WotP isn't a stretch. Once someone compared SP to the closest WotP neighborhood, the SP booster sprang to its defense by saying the FARMS rate, size, etc at SP school can't be compared to Lafayette. In addition, she said that crime statistics aren't comparable because the stats don't tell the story she wants to be heard. You can't have it both ways.

You are referring to more than one poster. For various reasons, Shepherd has a high % of OOB and thus a higher % of FARMs. Shepherd has a majority AA kids (you know the ones that bring down scores right?!). Lafayette is a majority white and rich school, one would expect them to have scores in the high 90s and far ahead of Shepherd that is 90% black and 1/3 poor. But they don't. I am not the poster that said Shepherd is smaller. I do maintain that the schools are comparable. Unless you think white is right, it's hard to contend they aren't. Shepherd is IB and does a great job and educating ALL of its students.

I don't think that you understand what comparable means. The fact that these two schools have very different demographics (race, SES, IB vs. OOB percentages, etc) means that they are fundamentally different. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

[Anonymous]

New poster here (my kid attends a charter school). It is pretty sad when people are clearly making assertions about schools based on racial and SES status (saying Shepherd is not as good as Lafayette). To me, seeing the scores and demographics, I can safely assume that my high SES kid will get the same education at both schools. In fact, I think he may do better at a school like Shepherd that is IB, has economic diversity (but not too high), and smaller class sizes. If you look at the non FARM scores at each school, Shepherd does better than Lafayette. How could that be when most of Shepherd is black?!!! As PP noted, they have the same Great School rating, they both feed to Deal. I have to assume the people that are saying they are not equal are doing so because they are afraid of the demogroahics. As liberal as this town appears to be, once you pull back the thin layers, you see ugly southern roots heavily at play.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please read this string of posts. The SP booster initially said that comparing SP and neighborhoods WotP isn't a stretch. Once someone compared SP to the closest WotP neighborhood, the SP booster sprang to its defense by saying the FARMS rate, size, etc at SP school can't be compared to Lafayette. In addition, she said that crime statistics aren't comparable because the stats don't tell the story she wants to be heard. You can't have it both ways.

You are referring to more than one poster. For various reasons, Shepherd has a high % of OOB and thus a higher % of FARMs. Shepherd has a majority AA kids (you know the ones that bring down scores right?!). Lafayette is a majority white and rich school, one would expect them to have scores in the high 90s and far ahead of Shepherd that is 90% black and 1/3 poor. But they don't. I am not the poster that said Shepherd is smaller. I do maintain that the schools are comparable. Unless you think white is right, it's hard to contend they aren't. Shepherd is IB and does a great job and educating ALL of its students.

I don't think that you understand what comparable means. The fact that these two schools have very different demographics (race, SES, IB vs. OOB percentages, etc) means that they are fundamentally different. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

Once again you can have the same # of low performing students however the numbers will not be comparable because Lafayette has a greater ability to mask due to its over population where Shepherd doesn't. Your not getting that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:New poster here (my kid attends a charter school). It is pretty sad when people are clearly making assertions about schools based on racial and SES status (saying Shepherd is not as good as Lafayette). To me, seeing the scores and demographics, I can safely assume that my high SES kid will get the same education at both schools. In fact, I think he may do better at a school like Shepherd that is IB, has economic diversity (but not too high), and smaller class sizes. If you look at the non FARM scores at each school, Shepherd does better than Lafayette. How could that be when most of Shepherd is black?!!! As PP noted, they have the same Great School rating, they both feed to Deal. I have to assume the people that are saying they are not equal are doing so because they are afraid of the demogroahics. As liberal as this town appears to be, once you pull back the thin layers, you see ugly southern roots heavily at play.

Amen!!!!

[Anonymous]

DP--I'm the PP from p. 1 who house shopped in both EOTP and WOTP neighborhoods. The crime data posted by a PP shows an area that includes much larger swaths of Ward 4 than just Shepherd Park. The area also appears to include Takoma DC and some parts of Brightwood.

If shopping in SP, one should be aware of the actual borders of the neighborhood. The greater Shepherd Park neighborhood also includes Colonial Village and North Portal Estates, all of which feeds to Shepherd/Deal/Wilson, allows membership in the Shepherd Park Civic Association, has neighborhood events, etc. There is not much crime in the neighborhood itself. Of the crimes that do occur (per the NW Current crime report section, etc.), much of it is clustered near the borders of Shepherd Park--Georgia Ave., and to a lesser extent, Eastern Ave. This map is somewhat informative if you zoom into Shepherd Park. The "red" areas are higher crime, whereas Shepherd Park itself is green:

http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Washington-District_Of_Columbia/crime/

Re: the schools: I was not the PP who said that Shepherd Elementary performs at the same level as some WOTP schools. This is clearly not the case when you look at the test scores, the demographics, and the size of the schools--Shepherd is less than half the size of Lafayette and Janney. However, Shepherd students has a fairly large number of FARMS families at the school, about 1/3. Also, about 2/3 of Shepherd's students don't actually live within the boundary, so this is another difference from most WOTP schools, where most students come from the immediate neighborhood. Finally, 19% of Shepherd's students are "at risk," meaning they are in foster care, homeless, or their families are receiving welfare benefits or food stamps. In comparison, only 3% of Lafayette's students are considered at risk:

http://dcps.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dcps/publication/attachments/DCPS-SHEPHERD-Allocation-FY16.pdf

http://dcps.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dcps/publication/attachments/DCPS-LAFAYETTE-Allocation-FY16.pdf

So, Shepherd has a more challenging population to work with. Given these differences, my subjective opinion is that Shepherd students score pretty well given the demographic makeup of its students. I wish there was a way to break out Shepherd's non-FARMS scores, or to control for these differences when examining the data to make it a more apples-to-apples comparison, but there's not, so you really have to mention these qualifiers when you compare Shepherd to more affluent schools.

Finally, in the lower grades, the in-boundary percentage is much higher, and my guess would be that both the FARMS rate and the proportion of "at risk" students is much lower. Also subjective, but my hunch is that scores will continue to improve at Shepherd in coming years as the younger cohorts reach testing grades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:New poster here (my kid attends a charter school). It is pretty sad when people are clearly making assertions about schools based on racial and SES status (saying Shepherd is not as good as Lafayette). To me, seeing the scores and demographics, I can safely assume that my high SES kid will get the same education at both schools. In fact, I think he may do better at a school like Shepherd that is IB, has economic diversity (but not too high), and smaller class sizes. If you look at the non FARM scores at each school, Shepherd does better than Lafayette. How could that be when most of Shepherd is black?!!! As PP noted, they have the same Great School rating, they both feed to Deal. I have to assume the people that are saying they are not equal are doing so because they are afraid of the demogroahics. As liberal as this town appears to be, once you pull back the thin layers, you see ugly southern roots heavily at play.

No, you and the SP booster are the ones trying to spin this into a racial issue. No one else is mentioning race.

[Anonymous]

Great post 10:36!

[Anonymous]

I agree, great post.

It is okay to point out that Shepherd Elementary is NOT Janney. Some of us picked it for that reason. Of course, the endless tirade from parents about how it SHOULD be Janney was really tiresome, but one can't blame the children for that--nor should one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree, great post.

It is okay to point out that Shepherd Elementary is NOT Janney. Some of us picked it for that reason. Of course, the endless tirade from parents about how it SHOULD be Janney was really tiresome, but one can't blame the children for that--nor should one.

Agreed. I think a PP said it best saying "my kid will get same education at either school". That's the point that's trying to be made when saying they're comparable because let's face it they are not demographically. All in all, it's elementary. The neighborhoods have same middle and high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If shopping in SP, one should be aware of the actual borders of the neighborhood. The greater Shepherd Park neighborhood also includes Colonial Village and North Portal Estates, all of which feeds to Shepherd/Deal/Wilson, allows membership in the Shepherd Park Civic Association, has neighborhood events, etc. There is not much crime in the neighborhood itself. Of the crimes that do occur (per the NW Current crime report section, etc.), much of it is clustered near the borders of Shepherd Park--Georgia Ave., and to a lesser extent, Eastern Ave. This map is somewhat informative if you zoom into Shepherd Park. The "red" areas are higher crime, whereas Shepherd Park itself is green:

http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Washington-District_Of_Columbia/crime/

Your Trulia map is helpful because if you zoom in, you can see the number of crimes in small areas. No one is saying Shepherd Park is a bad neighborhood, or that people who live there are bad. But as you note, it does border on some areas where crime occurs pretty regularly. The crime does spill over into Shepherd Park. A quick Google search will show several news articles about crime in Shepherd Park in recent years.

Re: the schools: I was not the PP who said that Shepherd Elementary performs at the same level as some WOTP schools. This is clearly not the case when you look at the test scores, the demographics, and the size of the schools--Shepherd is less than half the size of Lafayette and Janney. However, Shepherd students has a fairly large number of FARMS families at the school, about 1/3. Also, about 2/3 of Shepherd's students don't actually live within the boundary, so this is another difference from most WOTP schools, where most students come from the immediate neighborhood. Finally, 19% of Shepherd's students are "at risk," meaning they are in foster care, homeless, or their families are receiving welfare benefits or food stamps. In comparison, only 3% of Lafayette's students are considered at risk:

http://dcps.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dcps/publication/attachments/DCPS-SHEPHERD-Allocation-FY16.pdf

http://dcps.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dcps/publication/attachments/DCPS-LAFAYETTE-Allocation-FY16.pdf

So, Shepherd has a more challenging population to work with. Given these differences, my subjective opinion is that Shepherd students score pretty well given the demographic makeup of its students. I wish there was a way to break out Shepherd's non-FARMS scores, or to control for these differences when examining the data to make it a more apples-to-apples comparison, but there's not, so you really have to mention these qualifiers when you compare Shepherd to more affluent schools.

Finally, in the lower grades, the in-boundary percentage is much higher, and my guess would be that both the FARMS rate and the proportion of "at risk" students is much lower. Also subjective, but my hunch is that scores will continue to improve at Shepherd in coming years as the younger cohorts reach testing grades.

Once again, no one is attacking the children of Shepherd Park. I'm sure they're all wonderful kids. You are working hard here to suggest that Shepherd Elementary has lower scores because of the many kids from outside Shepherd Park's boundaries who attend Shepherd Elementary. Maybe you're right that it's all kids from other neighborhoods who are making Shepherd Elementary look less positive than other schools. But the simple fact is that whatever the reason, Shepherd Elementary has lower proficiency scores than the elementary school right across the park from it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If shopping in SP, one should be aware of the actual borders of the neighborhood. The greater Shepherd Park neighborhood also includes Colonial Village and North Portal Estates, all of which feeds to Shepherd/Deal/Wilson, allows membership in the Shepherd Park Civic Association, has neighborhood events, etc. There is not much crime in the neighborhood itself. Of the crimes that do occur (per the NW Current crime report section, etc.), much of it is clustered near the borders of Shepherd Park--Georgia Ave., and to a lesser extent, Eastern Ave. This map is somewhat informative if you zoom into Shepherd Park. The "red" areas are higher crime, whereas Shepherd Park itself is green:

http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Washington-District_Of_Columbia/crime/

Your Trulia map is helpful because if you zoom in, you can see the number of crimes in small areas. No one is saying Shepherd Park is a bad neighborhood, or that people who live there are bad. But as you note, it does border on some areas where crime occurs pretty regularly. The crime does spill over into Shepherd Park. A quick Google search will show several news articles about crime in Shepherd Park in recent years.

Re: the schools: I was not the PP who said that Shepherd Elementary performs at the same level as some WOTP schools. This is clearly not the case when you look at the test scores, the demographics, and the size of the schools--Shepherd is less than half the size of Lafayette and Janney. However, Shepherd students has a fairly large number of FARMS families at the school, about 1/3. Also, about 2/3 of Shepherd's students don't actually live within the boundary, so this is another difference from most WOTP schools, where most students come from the immediate neighborhood. Finally, 19% of Shepherd's students are "at risk," meaning they are in foster care, homeless, or their families are receiving welfare benefits or food stamps. In comparison, only 3% of Lafayette's students are considered at risk:

http://dcps.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dcps/publication/attachments/DCPS-SHEPHERD-Allocation-FY16.pdf

http://dcps.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dcps/publication/attachments/DCPS-LAFAYETTE-Allocation-FY16.pdf

So, Shepherd has a more challenging population to work with. Given these differences, my subjective opinion is that Shepherd students score pretty well given the demographic makeup of its students. I wish there was a way to break out Shepherd's non-FARMS scores, or to control for these differences when examining the data to make it a more apples-to-apples comparison, but there's not, so you really have to mention these qualifiers when you compare Shepherd to more affluent schools.

Finally, in the lower grades, the in-boundary percentage is much higher, and my guess would be that both the FARMS rate and the proportion of "at risk" students is much lower. Also subjective, but my hunch is that scores will continue to improve at Shepherd in coming years as the younger cohorts reach testing grades.

Once again, no one is attacking the children of Shepherd Park. I'm sure they're all wonderful kids. You are working hard here to suggest that Shepherd Elementary has lower scores because of the many kids from outside Shepherd Park's boundaries who attend Shepherd Elementary. Maybe you're right that it's all kids from other neighborhoods who are making Shepherd Elementary look less positive than other schools. But the simple fact is that whatever the reason, Shepherd Elementary has lower proficiency scores than the elementary school right across the park from it.

Is proficiency scores the only way to compare schools? I want you to answer before I respond further. PS- what school do your kids attend?

[Anonymous]

This whole thread was bait to begin with. But, reading it through, it's nice to learn that Shepherd seems to be roundly recognized -- by everyone! -- as one of the best neighborhood schools in the city.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is proficiency scores the only way to compare schools? I want you to answer before I respond further. PS- what school do your kids attend?

No, I'm not interested in revealing personal details about my life to you and all the other anonymous posters. Let's just say none of them attend either of the elementary schools we're talking about here. If you'd like to offer up details about your own children, maybe we'll all understand better your bias.

Compare the schools and the crime however you want. I've lived on both the east and west sides of the park, so I'm confident I have a pretty good basis to compare. I've got no need to convince you of anything.