NYT article on easing academic pressure and a cultural divide

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to school in this district about two decades when it was still majority white. It has always been a very academic and well regarded district but was not crazy competitive as described in the article. My class mates included Ethan Hawke ( who spent his last two years of high school in private school), the director Bryan Singer, the screenwriter Chris McQuarrie, and Jim Murphy of LTD Soundsystem. None needed the after school Kumon to be successful. iMO the superintendent is on the right track in bringing the school system where it use to be. For what it's worth, I went to a top 15 college and an Ivy League law school.

The school district maybe majority Asian at this point so maybe they should serve them instead of trying to *bring the school system where it use to be*

Yes, let's just keep going on this train with kids writing suicidal essays and creating art projects demonstrating unsustainable parental pressure so their parents can have bragging rights. Sometimes the educators are right, this school system has a track record for success for decades. The reason many of these kids can't get into Harvard, Princeton, Yale despite top grades is a lack of passion and creativity in learning because it has been beaten out of them in favor of rote learning.

Back to "rote learning". Again. Keep telling yourself that.

Did you even read the article? Clearly not. My dh is an interviewer for HYP, he sees plenty of kids with great grades and test scores who enirely lack intellectual curiosity (of all ethnicities). They don't get in. And yes, it is my opinion that the Kumon tutoring track stifles intellectual curiosity and promotes rote learning.

We already went through this up thread. Harvard is 18% Asian. Asians are competing against other Asians. Harvard would be majority Asian too if they did not look at race but purely merit.

Depends on what you call merit.

According to my gf who is head of all interviewers for HYP at a very large metropolitan city on the east coast, merit means having excellent grades, test scores, a measurable achievement in an area of interest - think Olympic caliber athlete, winning Intel competition, publishing original scientific research, etc. and/or overcoming great odds to achieve whatever outstanding "something", an interesting background story helps too. Like your father is a cab driver...

HTHs!

THis is a fair point - asian parents need to look at what Jeremy Lin did. He got into harvard because he could dunk and play ball.

That said, it is disingenuous not to admit there isn't a soft quota at HYPSM.

In the same way there is a soft quota for upper class white kids these days.

yes there is, but as per princeton's espenshade it isn't as egregious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to school in this district about two decades when it was still majority white. It has always been a very academic and well regarded district but was not crazy competitive as described in the article. My class mates included Ethan Hawke ( who spent his last two years of high school in private school), the director Bryan Singer, the screenwriter Chris McQuarrie, and Jim Murphy of LTD Soundsystem. None needed the after school Kumon to be successful. iMO the superintendent is on the right track in bringing the school system where it use to be. For what it's worth, I went to a top 15 college and an Ivy League law school.

The school district maybe majority Asian at this point so maybe they should serve them instead of trying to *bring the school system where it use to be*

Yes, let's just keep going on this train with kids writing suicidal essays and creating art projects demonstrating unsustainable parental pressure so their parents can have bragging rights. Sometimes the educators are right, this school system has a track record for success for decades. The reason many of these kids can't get into Harvard, Princeton, Yale despite top grades is a lack of passion and creativity in learning because it has been beaten out of them in favor of rote learning.

Back to "rote learning". Again. Keep telling yourself that.

Did you even read the article? Clearly not. My dh is an interviewer for HYP, he sees plenty of kids with great grades and test scores who enirely lack intellectual curiosity (of all ethnicities). They don't get in. And yes, it is my opinion that the Kumon tutoring track stifles intellectual curiosity and promotes rote learning.

We already went through this up thread. Harvard is 18% Asian. Asians are competing against other Asians. Harvard would be majority Asian too if they did not look at race but purely merit.

So say the disgruntled students who didn't get in.

The Asian population in the US is around 5% so 18% at Harvard means they are very over represente.

You do realize that jews at 2% of the population and are 20-25% of Harvard population - ie double/triple the 'over-representation'. no one ever points that out. The whole 'over-representation' thing is such a ridiculous argument.

There used to be a Jewish quota at the Ivies, the main reason Feynman went to MIT instead of Columbia. They don't apply quotas to Jews at the Ivies anymore (thus your number of 20-25% at Harvard now) but it is disingenuous to claim that the elite schools do not use some kind of *soft* quota for Asians now to keep them from becoming a majority like most of the top UCA universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is how Republicans are born. Nice to see people waking up!

Republicans are born through a divide in an affluent New Jersey school district between white US-born (mostly) parents who think that accelerate-accelerate-push-push is not a good philosophy for K-12 schools and Chinese-immigrant (mostly) parents who think that accelerate-accelerate-push-push is necessary to get ahead? I didn't know that.

PP is right partially. The modern Republican party is morphing more and more into a race-conscious white-rights party. From a conservative blog: http://thefederalist.com/2015/08/21/are-republicans-for-freedom-or-white-identity-politics/

The liberal whites of princeton nj are supposedly now racially aware given that they are now minorities in their supposedly 'own' schools. I wouldn't be surprised if this drove some white "liberals" of princeton to vote for the likes of Trump.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to school in this district about two decades when it was still majority white. It has always been a very academic and well regarded district but was not crazy competitive as described in the article. My class mates included Ethan Hawke ( who spent his last two years of high school in private school), the director Bryan Singer, the screenwriter Chris McQuarrie, and Jim Murphy of LTD Soundsystem. None needed the after school Kumon to be successful. iMO the superintendent is on the right track in bringing the school system where it use to be. For what it's worth, I went to a top 15 college and an Ivy League law school.

The school district maybe majority Asian at this point so maybe they should serve them instead of trying to *bring the school system where it use to be*

Yes, let's just keep going on this train with kids writing suicidal essays and creating art projects demonstrating unsustainable parental pressure so their parents can have bragging rights. Sometimes the educators are right, this school system has a track record for success for decades. The reason many of these kids can't get into Harvard, Princeton, Yale despite top grades is a lack of passion and creativity in learning because it has been beaten out of them in favor of rote learning.

Back to "rote learning". Again. Keep telling yourself that.

Did you even read the article? Clearly not. My dh is an interviewer for HYP, he sees plenty of kids with great grades and test scores who enirely lack intellectual curiosity (of all ethnicities). They don't get in. And yes, it is my opinion that the Kumon tutoring track stifles intellectual curiosity and promotes rote learning.

We already went through this up thread. Harvard is 18% Asian. Asians are competing against other Asians. Harvard would be majority Asian too if they did not look at race but purely merit.

So say the disgruntled students who didn't get in.

The Asian population in the US is around 5% so 18% at Harvard means they are very over represente.

You do realize that jews at 2% of the population and are 20-25% of Harvard population - ie double/triple the 'over-representation'. no one ever points that out. The whole 'over-representation' thing is such a ridiculous argument.

There used to be a Jewish quota at the Ivies, the main reason Feynman went to MIT instead of Columbia. They don't apply quotas to Jews at the Ivies anymore (thus your number of 20-25% at Harvard now) but it is disingenuous to claim that the elite schools do not use some kind of *soft* quota for Asians now to keep them from becoming a majority like most of the top UCA universities.

I am agreeing with you that elite schools USE soft quotas against asians. my point was more of a question as to why do people always complain about asian so-called 'over-representation' but never jewish 'over-representation'? Since the latter is never said, shouldn't the argument of over-representation not be used across the board?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:...On the other hand, I'm an alumni interviewer for my alma mater, which is a top-25 university. I interviewed a few people last year, and recommended them all. The Asian students I recommended were not accepted, and looking back on it, I think it was the lack of being a well-rounded person. They did very well academically (which is why I recommended them) but weren't so well-rounded compared to the non-Asian student I interviewed (and who was accepted).

what school and specifically what was lacking in the Asian students?

the PP who is an interviewer is an idiot. Schools don't look for 'well rounded' - they look to construct 'well rounded classes'.

What PP interviewer fails to mention is the truth, which is the asian kids he interviewed and recommended were competing for admission with other asian kids, not with the entire class. The non-asian kid likewise was competing within his/her bucket.

Um, pretty sure having racial "buckets" (i.e. Quotas) is unconstitutional.

Um, you're pretty wrong about that.

A strict racial quota would absolutely violate the constitution for a public institution and the Civil Rights Act for private. My guess is that we will see a parity of legal doctrine between public and private in the next 10 yrs severely limiting the consideration of race at all.

schools don't use strict racial quotas but hide soft quotas within holistic rubrics. I have nothing against holistic admissions, ex-race. In fact let there be SES-adjusted admissions.

There's a reason why schools are now destroying their admissions records so students and or opposing counsel cannot ask for them during discovery if/when they are sued.

[Anonymous]

Probably bc Jews are more mainstream now and you can't tell who is a Jew just by looking at someone unlike Asians. Asians have a higher "other" factor than Jews.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm Asian, and I don't like the uber competitiveness and stress that some of these kids are going through. Having stated that, I do find it curious that many white parents are now complaining about this type of competitive culture that Asian American kids bring to the table, but all was ok when the wealthier white kids were able to succeed, but the poorer kids (mostly minorities) couldn't keep up. This reminds me a bit of the recent article about how the public wants to treat drug addicts differently now that it's affecting more affluent white kids.

Ding Ding Ding.

I'm the poster who grew up in this district. Had one Asian American classmate who committed suicide when he got a B on his report card(this was in high school). Not clear from the article the ethnicity of the kid who drew a cartoon of his parent telling him getting an A instead of A plus on a calculus test was a "disgrace" but don't think it is correct that the pressure cooker atmosphere only negatively affects white kids. This school district is affluent and has never had an issue with disadvantaged kids being hurt by community standa dis being too high. Nice attempt to try to avoid the real issues though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Property taxes pay for schools, no?

Well, property taxes help pay for schools. But only in states with inequitable systems for school funding are property taxes the main source of school funding.

Don't worry. Most of the public school districts that Asians target to send their kids like McLean (for TJ) use property taxes. People who send their kids to other countries for schooling are not exactly poor illegal immigrants sucking on the US taxpayers teat.

Such schools also receive funding from the state and federal
Government in addition to revenue from local property tax dollars.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to school in this district about two decades when it was still majority white. It has always been a very academic and well regarded district but was not crazy competitive as described in the article. My class mates included Ethan Hawke ( who spent his last two years of high school in private school), the director Bryan Singer, the screenwriter Chris McQuarrie, and Jim Murphy of LTD Soundsystem. None needed the after school Kumon to be successful. iMO the superintendent is on the right track in bringing the school system where it use to be. For what it's worth, I went to a top 15 college and an Ivy League law school.

The school district maybe majority Asian at this point so maybe they should serve them instead of trying to *bring the school system where it use to be*

Yes, let's just keep going on this train with kids writing suicidal essays and creating art projects demonstrating unsustainable parental pressure so their parents can have bragging rights. Sometimes the educators are right, this school system has a track record for success for decades. The reason many of these kids can't get into Harvard, Princeton, Yale despite top grades is a lack of passion and creativity in learning because it has been beaten out of them in favor of rote learning.

Back to "rote learning". Again. Keep telling yourself that.

Did you even read the article? Clearly not. My dh is an interviewer for HYP, he sees plenty of kids with great grades and test scores who enirely lack intellectual curiosity (of all ethnicities). They don't get in. And yes, it is my opinion that the Kumon tutoring track stifles intellectual curiosity and promotes rote learning.

We already went through this up thread. Harvard is 18% Asian. Asians are competing against other Asians. Harvard would be majority Asian too if they did not look at race but purely merit.

That may be how they do things at Harvard but it probably violates the Civil Rights Act.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to school in this district about two decades when it was still majority white. It has always been a very academic and well regarded district but was not crazy competitive as described in the article. My class mates included Ethan Hawke ( who spent his last two years of high school in private school), the director Bryan Singer, the screenwriter Chris McQuarrie, and Jim Murphy of LTD Soundsystem. None needed the after school Kumon to be successful. iMO the superintendent is on the right track in bringing the school system where it use to be. For what it's worth, I went to a top 15 college and an Ivy League law school.

The school district maybe majority Asian at this point so maybe they should serve them instead of trying to *bring the school system where it use to be*

I sort of agree with this. I think the problem is that the superintendent is turning it into a bit of a culture war uneccesarily by using value-laden terms like "the whole child." This tends to make people fight back by asserting their own value system. I think if they concentrated more on the specific preferences and problems happening instead of talking so broadly, it would be easier to reach consensus with all stakeholders. Because at the end of the day, the one definitely true thing is that all parents want the best for their kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Property taxes pay for schools, no?

Well, property taxes help pay for schools. But only in states with inequitable systems for school funding are property taxes the main source of school funding.

Don't worry. Most of the public school districts that Asians target to send their kids like McLean (for TJ) use property taxes. People who send their kids to other countries for schooling are not exactly poor illegal immigrants sucking on the US taxpayers teat.

Such schools also receive funding from the state and federal
Government in addition to revenue from local property tax dollars.

The US has a tradition of providing a free public education to children regardless of sex, race, disability... Ability to pay

And immigration status. So you are voting for Trump?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The school district maybe majority Asian at this point so maybe they should serve them instead of trying to *bring the school system where it use to be*

All Asians (meaning, people with a family origin in the continent of Asia, who live in the US) want the same thing?

Don't know but I think most care deeply about education and don't mind the competition. It's what we are used to. I'm the pp who is awed by the Chinese and Indian parents. We have relatives who live in Princeton, NJ and the public school system has always been a matter of pride for it's rigor. Just as good if not better than most private schools. They have an adopted Asian child in hs currently and they pretty much liked it the way it was. They are Jewish though.

Many people, regardless of continent of family origin, "care deeply about education". I care deeply about education, and I was born in the US. Presumably you do too (I don't know where you were born). The question is, what does "care deeply about education mean"?

[Anonymous]

^^^messed up the quotation marks.

The question is, what does "care deeply about education" mean?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^^messed up the quotation marks.

The question is, what does "care deeply about education" mean?

Everyone has a different definition thus the culture wars at Princeton.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I am agreeing with you that elite schools USE soft quotas against asians. my point was more of a question as to why do people always complain about asian so-called 'over-representation' but never jewish 'over-representation'? Since the latter is never said, shouldn't the argument of over-representation not be used across the board?

Why do people never complain about upper-middle-class over-representation or children-of-professionals over-representation or children-of-legacies over-representation?