Redshirted and Regretted It?

[Anonymous]

Can either of the two PPs point to any negative consequences your children have faced as a result of having older children in their classes? I did not see that in your posts.

Also, I'm sorry it pains you to have to justify your views. Perhaps if you'll explain how you've been harmed, we all will understand you better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:WOW! Poster 14:44 has the maturity of a 2 year old. No wonder her DS needed to be redshirted. The apple really doesn't fall far from the tree.

I didn't read it that way. I thought she was someone who managed to stay upbeat about her decision despite several dozen messages criticizing the decisions she has thoughtfully made as a parent.

And she's right, at the end of the day - nobody else DOES have a say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I second the PP's comments. At times it seems as though proponents of redshirting feel as though they are making a decision for their child in a vacuum. They selfishly act as though the rest of the parent body should just step aside as they do what's "right" for their child, without any ownership over how this affects the other children in their child's community (ie: classroom). And then to have the audacity to ask others who do not support redshirting to justify their position....it leaves me mystified. My children are neither old nor young for their classes, but having children in the class who should in theory not be there due to their ages, does nothing helpful for the teacher or overall classroom dynamics. And one further point-- proponents of redshirting should not ask all other parents to "butt out" of their decision-making process for their own children, but then turn around and ask those who are against redshirting to justify their views.

True enough. If it were me I'd just tell you to "butt out" and leave it at that.

I wouldn't give less of a d*mn about how you justify your views.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can either of the two PPs point to any negative consequences your children have faced as a result of having older children in their classes? I did not see that in your posts.

Also, I'm sorry it pains you to have to justify your views. Perhaps if you'll explain how you've been harmed, we all will understand you better.

I see teachers having to adjust lesson plans and classroom activities to accommodate two groups of kids, one who is on par with the curriculum and one who should be in the year ahead.

I see kids who are right aged being advised to start tutoring because they can't keep up with the older kids in the class, even though, by the teachers admission, the children in question are doing everything they are supposed to for the age and grade they are in.

I have seen redshirted kids wonder why they are in a class with kids significantly younger and smaller than they are; they hang out with the kids in the next older grade during recess and after school.

I have seen physicals and social maturation issues affect social relationships in inappropriate manners in the middle school years.

[Anonymous]

I novel idea here. We're all going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Here's where it seems we are:

1. I think everyone agrees that holding back a sept-feb birthday child in order to give them an advantage is inappropriate and should not be allowed by the schools... and that this is really "repeating" for development issues rather than redshirting

2. I think most people agree that deciding to hold back a July/Aug birthday is a decision probably best left to a parent and a school, and done for the right reasons this is perfectly acceptable and appropriate.

3. I think the big question is what about June, May, April, or March birthdays. There is probably legitimate room for disagreement on this... probably less so for a June, and more so for a March birthday. On this question, on this forum, we will NEVER reach full agreement or consensus... so let's just leave it at that.

I'm sure there are exceptions to the 3 positions above (ie someone who thinks its ok to hold back a Nov birthday or not ok to hold back an August)... but I think those people are outliers and are in the extreme minority.

Now... can we all just get along???

[Anonymous]

Even if I regret the decision a couple years down the line, I figure it is easier to bump a kid up a grade then it is to hold them back a grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your assumption that you're doing the right thing because "very very few parents seem to regret the decision" is wrong. This is an anonymous forum where parents are not likely to post negative comments, especially when they believe they may have made a mistake with their child's education.

If you really wanted the "best" edcuation for your child, you'd be looking at homeschooling. But judging from your comments and tone, you're more likely to be concerned in feeding your own ego than anything to do with your child. Grow the F up.

Homeschooling? Best? What is this, Little House on the Prairie? Wow. I'm laughing at you, not with you.

& by the way, when you throw the f-bomb, it pretty much negates whatever moral or ethical superiority you imagined you had when you told someone else to grow up. Who do you think you are? Scarface?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I novel idea here. We're all going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Here's where it seems we are:

1. I think everyone agrees that holding back a sept-feb birthday child in order to give them an advantage is inappropriate and should not be allowed by the schools... and that this is really "repeating" for development issues rather than redshirting

2. I think most people agree that deciding to hold back a July/Aug birthday is a decision probably best left to a parent and a school, and done for the right reasons this is perfectly acceptable and appropriate.

3. I think the big question is what about June, May, April, or March birthdays. There is probably legitimate room for disagreement on this... probably less so for a June, and more so for a March birthday. On this question, on this forum, we will NEVER reach full agreement or consensus... so let's just leave it at that.

I'm sure there are exceptions to the 3 positions above (ie someone who thinks its ok to hold back a Nov birthday or not ok to hold back an August)... but I think those people are outliers and are in the extreme minority.

Now... can we all just get along???

No. September b-days are the youngest of ALL of them. September (falling later in the year) boys were born AFTER the summer boys. Unless you're talking about the PRIOR year (which you didn't specify, but in any case I've never heard of).

Other than that, we can get along (although I just flat out refuse to worry about this horde of imaginary 7 year old Kindergarteners, and there's really nothing anyone can say that's likely to persuade me otherwise).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can either of the two PPs point to any negative consequences your children have faced as a result of having older children in their classes? I did not see that in your posts.

Also, I'm sorry it pains you to have to justify your views. Perhaps if you'll explain how you've been harmed, we all will understand you better.

I see teachers having to adjust lesson plans and classroom activities to accommodate two groups of kids, one who is on par with the curriculum and one who should be in the year ahead.

I see kids who are right aged being advised to start tutoring because they can't keep up with the older kids in the class, even though, by the teachers admission, the children in question are doing everything they are supposed to for the age and grade they are in.

I have seen redshirted kids wonder why they are in a class with kids significantly younger and smaller than they are; they hang out with the kids in the next older grade during recess and after school.

I have seen physicals and social maturation issues affect social relationships in inappropriate manners in the middle school years.

I continue to be curious. At what grade is this? You say "middle school." Do you mean grades 6-8?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can either of the two PPs point to any negative consequences your children have faced as a result of having older children in their classes? I did not see that in your posts.

Also, I'm sorry it pains you to have to justify your views. Perhaps if you'll explain how you've been harmed, we all will understand you better.

I see teachers having to adjust lesson plans and classroom activities to accommodate two groups of kids, one who is on par with the curriculum and one who should be in the year ahead.

Teachers have to do this anyhow. Plenty of "right age" children are a year ahead of what the curriculum requires -- so teachers should be making accomodations.

[Anonymous]

So it is ok to be teaching quadratic equations in a class designed for algebra and then forcing the kids who are all supposed to be taking algebra to instead hire tutors to learn algebra so they can understand quadratic equations?

(ie use this as an example, not as the actual situation)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So it is ok to be teaching quadratic equations in a class designed for algebra and then forcing the kids who are all supposed to be taking algebra to instead hire tutors to learn algebra so they can understand quadratic equations?

(ie use this as an example, not as the actual situation)

No, you teach the Algebra but then have smaller groups for the more advanced students to work on quadratic equations.

This is called differentiated learning and is a big reason why us folks pay $30k per year for a top independent school education.

The PP is right... you are going to have a wide range of skills/abilities in every class no matter what the age range... and it will be different by subject. Little Johnny may be way ahead of the class in math, but lagging in verbal - that's where differentiated learning should help catch him up in verbal, and further accelerate his abilities in math... rather than "forcing him to the middle"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I novel idea here. We're all going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Here's where it seems we are:

1. I think everyone agrees that holding back a sept-feb birthday child in order to give them an advantage is inappropriate and should not be allowed by the schools... and that this is really "repeating" for development issues rather than redshirting

2. I think most people agree that deciding to hold back a July/Aug birthday is a decision probably best left to a parent and a school, and done for the right reasons this is perfectly acceptable and appropriate.

3. I think the big question is what about June, May, April, or March birthdays. There is probably legitimate room for disagreement on this... probably less so for a June, and more so for a March birthday. On this question, on this forum, we will NEVER reach full agreement or consensus... so let's just leave it at that.

I'm sure there are exceptions to the 3 positions above (ie someone who thinks its ok to hold back a Nov birthday or not ok to hold back an August)... but I think those people are outliers and are in the extreme minority.

Now... can we all just get along???

No. September b-days are the youngest of ALL of them. September (falling later in the year) boys were born AFTER the summer boys. Unless you're talking about the PRIOR year (which you didn't specify, but in any case I've never heard of).

Other than that, we can get along (although I just flat out refuse to worry about this horde of imaginary 7 year old Kindergarteners, and there's really nothing anyone can say that's likely to persuade me otherwise).

Not sure what you mean. The cut off date for most DC top schools is Sept 1... so most Sept 15 birthdays will be the oldest in their class when they begin (they'll turn 6 on Sept 15 of their K year).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can either of the two PPs point to any negative consequences your children have faced as a result of having older children in their classes? I did not see that in your posts.

Also, I'm sorry it pains you to have to justify your views. Perhaps if you'll explain how you've been harmed, we all will understand you better.

Point 1: I see teachers having to adjust lesson plans and classroom activities to accommodate two groups of kids, one who is on par with the curriculum and one who should be in the year ahead.

Point 2: I see kids who are right aged being advised to start tutoring because they can't keep up with the older kids in the class, even though, by the teachers admission, the children in question are doing everything they are supposed to for the age and grade they are in.

Point 3: I have seen redshirted kids wonder why they are in a class with kids significantly younger and smaller than they are; they hang out with the kids in the next older grade during recess and after school.

Point 4: I have seen physicals and social maturation issues affect social relationships in inappropriate manners in the middle school years.

I continue to be curious. At what grade is this? You say "middle school." Do you mean grades 6-8?

To the PP who described these specific ways in which her children have been harmed by redshirting (or others like her): In addition to my question about what specific grades you see this at, I have some other questions. I took the liberty of labeling your original points so they are easier to reference. Thanks in advance for your responses. If any other anti-redshirting parents want to describe the specific harms their own children have suffered, I'd be happy to hear them.

(1) At what grade is this? You say "middle school." Do you mean grades 6-8? (repeating my earlier question)
(2) How many redshirted kids are in your childrens' classes? How many that are just 1-2 months older than a September 1 cut-off? How many that are 3+ months older?
(3) Are your own children "right aged" for the class? I assume they are from your comments, but I just want to be sure. They aren't young for the class, are they (skipped a grade)?
(4) Is this private or public school?
(5) For the kids in your class that were redshirted, were they held back recently (just in the past year or two)? Or were they redshirted at a younger age (e.g., K or 1st) and have just advanced with the rest of the class?
(6) For the kids in your class that were redshirted, is it your sense the were held back to give them some unfair advantage over others? Or were some held back for other reasons (e.g., small for age, immature for age, English as second language, unable to advance academically, etc)?
(7) In Point 1, you talk about adjusting lesson plans to account for kids ahead of the curriculum. I think I understand your meaning, but I want to be sure. Do you mean that the older kids in the class (those who were redshirted) are more advanced in their learning and understanding of the subject matter, so the teacher must accelerate the curriculum to keep them challenged?
(8) In Point 2, you talk about "right aged" kids being told to start tutoring because they cannot keep up with the older kids. Do you mean they can't keep up with the redshirted kids specifically, or just other older (but still "right aged") kids? Also, if the teacher agrees with you that the redshirted kids are out-of-step with the norm for this grade, did she explain why she is asking "right aged" kids to get tutoring, rather than just continuing with her original lesson plan?
(9) In Point 3, you talk about redshirted kids wondering why they were held back. Did you witness this once, or many times? Were the kids you witnessed it for held back to gain advantage, or for some other reason (such as those listed in Question 6 above)?
(10) In Point 4, you talk about "physical and social maturation levels" affecting "social relations in inappropriate manners." I'm a little slow, so you need to be more direct. Are you saying the redshirted kids are pressuring the "right aged" kids to engage in sexual experimentation? Are you saying the redshirted girls have bigger breasts? Please explain. Also, is the difference you see in this regard a clear and stark difference between redshirted kids and "right aged" kids? I would imagine kids in middle school are all over the map in terms of social development, but you seem to be suggesting there is a clear dividing line.

By the way, in case it matters to you, I am finding these specific descriptions of harms your own children have actually suffered to be much more interesting, and potentially persuasive, than the dozens of pages of posts where people talk about hypothetical issues with redshirting or try to scare me by asking whether my daughter will be safe in a class with older boys. Those scare tactics cut no mustard with me, but your personal experience means more.

[Anonymous]

OK, let me try this (hope the formatting works)

(1) At what grade is this? You say "middle school." Do you mean grades 6-8? (repeating my earlier question)

I would consider Middle School to be 6-8, although some of the "Big 4" or whatever vary slightly (5-8 etc).

(2) How many redshirted kids are in your childrens' classes? How many that are just 1-2 months older than a September 1 cut-off? How many that are 3+ months older?

There are several summer birthdays who (by board consensus) are "late starters" but there are 4 or 5 (at least) red-shirted kids in each of my kids grades whose birthdays fall between December and April.

(3) Are your own children "right aged" for the class? I assume they are from your comments, but I just want to be sure. They aren't young for the class, are they (skipped a grade)?

My kids, in each of their grades, are in the middle of age range and yet are in some cases almost a year younger than the red-shirted kids.

(4) Is this private or public school?

As this is the Private School forum, I am responding to the questions per the experiences I have with Private schools. However, I have many public school friends, particularly in MoCo and DC where many of the same issues arise.

(5) For the kids in your class that were redshirted, were they held back recently (just in the past year or two)? Or were they redshirted at a younger age (e.g., K or 1st) and have just advanced with the rest of the class?

The ones I know of entered the school "red shirted", ie they came in Pre-K, K or in Middle School already older, as opposed to repeating a grade while in the same school. So for the ones who started in the early years, I have seen the manifestation of this over the course of several years.

(6) For the kids in your class that were redshirted, is it your sense the were held back to give them some unfair advantage over others? Or were some held back for other reasons (e.g., small for age, immature for age, English as second language, unable to advance academically, etc)?

There is no perceivable reason why ANY of the kids I know of were red-shirted. None are small for their age, none seem to have any learning or physical issues. Conjecture would certainly suggest to gain an "unfair advantage".

(7) In Point 1, you talk about adjusting lesson plans to account for kids ahead of the curriculum. I think I understand your meaning, but I want to be sure. Do you mean that the older kids in the class (those who were redshirted) are more advanced in their learning and understanding of the subject matter, so the teacher must accelerate the curriculum to keep them challenged?

Exactly, and this acceleration then makes the age appropriate kids 1) wonder what is wrong with them and 2) causes unnecessary strain in the classroom and 3) forces many to seek outside tutoring to keep up.

(8) In Point 2, you talk about "right aged" kids being told to start tutoring because they cannot keep up with the older kids. Do you mean they can't keep up with the redshirted kids specifically, or just other older (but still "right aged") kids? Also, if the teacher agrees with you that the redshirted kids are out-of-step with the norm for this grade, did she explain why she is asking "right aged" kids to get tutoring, rather than just continuing with her original lesson plan?

The tutoring is to keep up with the red-shirted kids, since the impetus is to push the class to keep the now-adjusted lesson plans intact. The teachers simply explain that they can't hold people back and they can't teach multiple groups in the same class. When confronted with the red-shirt issue, they originally claimed ignorance. Subsequent discussions with faculty suggest that this is an issue, but they are timid in confronting their school administration on it. My guess is that these are often high-money donors and no one wants to step on toes, either in the admissions process or as these issues surface during the course of the academic year.

(9) In Point 3, you talk about redshirted kids wondering why they were held back. Did you witness this once, or many times? Were the kids you witnessed it for held back to gain advantage, or for some other reason (such as those listed in Question 6 above)?

I have witnessed this several times and across several schools and ages. I am particularly reflective of a conversation I had with a child on a local playground who was particularly articulate about being in second grade and a year older than his peers (this was a few years ago). He said he felt uncomfortable being forced to be in a class "with a bunch of little kids". I felt really bad for him. Again, no apparent reason why this child had been held back. He was an African-American child at a "big 4" school. However, I have seen this same esteem issue arise several time. In another K class at a different school a red-shirted child was actually being teased about being a year older than a number of kids in the class. I witnessed this at a birthday party. I felt horrible for the child, and embarrassed for the parents (who were right there as well).

(10) In Point 4, you talk about "physical and social maturation levels" affecting "social relations in inappropriate manners." I'm a little slow, so you need to be more direct. Are you saying the redshirted kids are pressuring the "right aged" kids to engage in sexual experimentation? Are you saying the redshirted girls have bigger breasts? Please explain. Also, is the difference you see in this regard a clear and stark difference between redshirted kids and "right aged" kids? I would imagine kids in middle school are all over the map in terms of social development, but you seem to be suggesting there is a clear dividing line.

I see 4th and 5th graders who are in pubescence, I see particularly aggressive (from both sexes) sexual behavior in 5th and 6th grades (I know some of this is societal, but still). Yes, Jr. High kids are all over the map, but 8th graders shaving and fully mature 7th grade girls make for a particularly tense social situation when they are the "red shirted" ones, and the "right age" children are feeling social pressures over and above the historical norms for their situation.