Someone lied about a position DS had - she got in, DS didn't. Appropriate to tell school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, any other updates?

It is a troll post, well crafted to elicit many subsequent views and posts.

Please read the explanation above, but generally no one who understands the potential perils of leaving one's trail on social media, would purposely post so many details to out themselves on a public forum as the person who worked behind the scenes to have their classmate's college admissions rescinded.

You sound just like an old friend of mine, who rails on and on about how social media is where stupid people go due to the trails people leave, and how 'open my Facebook page is" (done deliberately, i.e. friends of friends) and how stupid I am for it.

By the way? She's diagnosed as narcissistic.

Consider this: Honest people (like myself and I'm sure the OP, given how ethical her son is) don't see things the way you do, i.e. having a need to hide. Those who feel they need to hide are, well, hiding something.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shocker your son learned people lie/embellish by cyber-stalking another student.

Cyberstalking? Website are made to be read. Unless you are cyberstalking dcum right now

Naw. There's a distinction. Be honest.

Strongly disagree. You are the troll. This seems to be a very legit thread to me. And, at dc's school, cheating is strongly frowned upon by peers, so there would be no shame in being the "leak." Character & integrity matter.

[Anonymous]

This thread fascinates me whether it is a troll or not. Many people face these same dilemmas and choices. I talked with my DS, who attends an elite college and he says "absolutely, students lose their spots from behavior like this. they just go on to a different, less fact checking school. there are quite a few scandals well known at the school"
As a parent, I once faced a similar dilemma at our private school. A parent I knew slightly asked about our school. I said it was a terrific school and so on. Later I found out that her DS was the class drug dealer facing expulsion at his old school ... awkward.

[Anonymous]

The heated debate about troll posts raises some questions.

I read an article about the co-founders/moderators of DCUM which wrote that one of them has left their outside, professional work to manage the DCUM site full time. The site therefore appears to raise some sufficient amount of ad revenue. If ad revenue is based on the amount of traffic to a website, then the creators or owners of any website will have an incentive to create or generate the kind of interesting content that generates hit. So the first question is whether the moderators of DCUM are not sometimes tempted to create a thread, or insert posts into an existing thread, to generate or stimulate conversation on a topic.

DCUM is an anonymous forum. I recall a recent posting in the private schools thread about drug use in someone's basement, in which the moderator shut down the discussion as a troll post because they could tell that the original post originated from the server of one particular private school, which they then publicly identified. My second question, then, is whether anonymous posters on DCUM are actually personally identifiable to the site, and if so, whether the site can collect and use our opinions in a monetarily quantifiable way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread fascinates me whether it is a troll or not. Many people face these same dilemmas and choices. I talked with my DS, who attends an elite college and he says "absolutely, students lose their spots from behavior like this. they just go on to a different, less fact checking school. there are quite a few scandals well known at the school"
As a parent, I once faced a similar dilemma at our private school. A parent I knew slightly asked about our school. I said it was a terrific school and so on. Later I found out that her DS was the class drug dealer facing expulsion at his old school ... awkward.

What did you do?

[Anonymous]

OP must not have had a favorable outcome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I worked in college admissions for several years, and sadly, this sort of thing (reportings of assumed improprieties by admitted students) happens often. In many cases we simply shook our heads at how cut throat college admissions had become and how terribly jealous and vindictive rejected families can be. This after double checking many, many reportings that proved to be false. The whistleblower reported what they thought was the case but ended up being wrong. It is possible that the student did NOT claim that leadership position on the college app although it was on her personal website. She may have crafted the resume under the assumption the position would be hers before it was filled by your son then simply forgot about it. Really, how often do adults update their resumes? Now imagine being a HS student in the throes of college admissions. We actually had a parent report that an admitted student's parent had been arrested!!! It makes the rejected student look bad and reaffirms the belief that the correct student was rejected. The decision rests with OP, but my school has never rescinded an offer based on a report. If she'd altered transcripts, SAT scores, forged teacher recs that's one thing. Exaggerating in an essay (we're much more interested in gleaning personality and writing ability) or in the activity section was no deal breaker. We know kids make up stories about volunteering and helping old people cross the street. Whatever. We were much more interested in the numbers as a base line. Everything else was gravy.

Also, one AD handles all the apps from the son's school. If they didn't catch or care about the doubly claimed position, I doubt it will matter.

OP this is the reason I would be careful. She sounds all reasonable, but what she is really saying is that the school does not want to admit that they do not really fact check." ...they have in the past and it was a waste of time ...."

Former admissions officer again. I was actually going to make this point in my initial post. Always be careful when asking someone to reconsider a decision they have made. Admissions prides themselves on the time and care with which applications are considered. Unless the admitted student's deception was so egregious there's no way an AD could've known it (ex: the forged transcript, altered SAT scores, etc--which are nearly impossible to fake, as they are sent directly from agencies), they are unlikely to say, "Oh, I shoulda caught that!" because that would mean admitting to being asleep at the wheel.

That said, we would've been willing to admit it if the deceptive information had a huge impact on the outcome. A slight exaggeration in the activities or essay section, as I said before, is unlikely to change anything. (We all knew every single kid didn't walk away from that missions trip with a greater appreciation for what they have--if they actually went on the trip...didn't care. And we often doubted the claim that they went home and donated all of their clothes and sold their electronics to donate to the poor afterward. However, we got an idea of what values the child thought they should have at 18, their personalities, and again, writing ability.)

Again, it's OP's decision, which it sounds like she has made, but please prepare yourself for the possibility nothing may happen as a result of DS's reporting.

Rarely does someone piss me off to this point, but former admissions counselor, congratulations - you've accomplished just that. Let me take you through your points one by one:

1) You say you all shake your heads at how cutthroat the process has become, as though you are not part of the problem. Do you think these kids WANT to work the equivalent of two full-time jobs, what with classwork, homework, expected charitable work, expected extra curriculars and excel at it all? They do it to try to impress YOU and your school's ridiculous expectations.

2) Your mentioning of other folks being jealous and vindictive is neither here nor there, and in fact, comes of as a dig at the OP and her son, who are absolutely correct in their outrage at this girl's blatant lie. To additionally say "how many people forget to update their resume....excuse me? This was no accident and she should not have claimed to have won a position that she hasn't - even if she think she was probably expecting it, which, by the way, is pretty narcissistic. This is more akin to the stolen valor that we've seen by some politicians. No matter how you look at it, it's wrong

3) The fact that you tolerate kids making up stories about volunteering? Good to know. I'm sure parents who have spent thousands of dollars to ensure their kid jumped through that required college admissions hoop appreciates the fact that if a student lies about their trip, it's of no never mind to admissions directors. What values a kid THINKS they should have is easily faked. I'm glad we didn't push these kinds of trips on our kids, and instead, taught them to be kind and thoughtful on an everyday basis. You admissions people might not consider that a big fat checkmark, but we parents sleep better at night knowing we raised genuinely kind-hearted kids.

4) Learning a kid has lied about an award, in fact stealing that award from someone else, SHOULD matter to admissions director. The fact that an admissions director wouldn't react because it means 'they were asleep at the wheel' tells me that the admissions director needs a new job. And were I that person's supervisor, that person would be gone from my employ. I have news for you; lying should have a huge impact on the outcome. Character matters.

5) As for your comment "prepare yourself for nothing happening". That may be so. The OP's child cannot control what others will do with the information he provides. But make no mistake - something WILL happen. OP's son will walk away with a sense of honor, knowing he did the right thing. And will also know that his parents will be very proud of him. Again - character matters. And OP's son seems to have a whole heap of it. Congratulations, OP. You've done good. Your son is turning into a fine man.

Thank you for addressing the AD, and putting into words what I could not exactly put my finger on. Resume fraud (and claiming you held a position that someone else did is clearly fraud) was grounds for termination at my law firm, no matter when it was discovered. The AD also did not take the time to read the original post carefully enough to realize that the son had no desire to attend the college in question. This was not about sour grapes, this was a moral dilemma, one that he was painfully aware of since he had actually held the position in question.

At my law school, we had an honor code that included that it was an honor violation not to report a violation of the honor code that you witnessed or had knowledge of. That always made me so uncomfortable, and thankfully it never came up, but 30 years later I understand the reasoning behind it a lot more and have a lot more respect for the people who developed it. I went to UVA and we had a single sanction system which is why I thought it was so harsh - any law student found guilty of violating the honor code (including the failure to report aspect) was automatically expelled. But our honor code relieved us of the moral dilemma the OP's son was in, and reinforced how serious honor code violations are.

We see this kind of hubris by our political leaders all the time, and eventually this girl would have been caught (one would hope). If I were the OP's son, I would also have been seriously troubled by the idea that the girl got a slot at a college that she did not deserve due to her unethical behavior if she lied on her application. Whether her having held the position in question was outcome determinative in the admissions process itself is irrelevant. As someone else pointed out, when a student is caught cheating after college admissions decisions are made, many schools feel an obligation to inform the colleges and frequently acceptances are rescinded, despite how otherwise qualified that student was as an applicant. I think this is the same kind of situation if I understand it correctly. It was her "resume" posted on her FB page and presumably she did not have a different one that she submitted to colleges, who, as people know, check students' online activity.

I was profoundly disturbed by the flippancy with which the AD treated this entire incident. All applicants lie in their essays based on how they think they are supposed to feel? All applicants exaggerate what they have done and the positions they have held in high school? What on earth? It is one thing to object, as I do, to how much kids are expected to do these days to make them attractive applicants to competitive colleges. It is an entirely different thing for an Admissions Director to say that he or she assumes they lie about it. You have really done all college admissions departments a severe disservice by your posts here, and if I could identify you I would promptly request that you be fired, because our students deserve someone better than you looking over their lives and making judgements about who deserves to be admitted to your college or university, and whether or not this kind of blatant misrepresentation is a big deal. It is. If you want someone like this at your school, and you assume that everyone who applies to your school is like this to some degree, I don't want my child to attend your school. Many of our kids are honest and have a lot of heart. You do not deserve to be reviewing their applications.

[Anonymous]

Previous poster, my child applied to college this year, and most of the universities they applied to, specifically instructed applicants NOT to submit a resume. As a result DC, who does have a resume prepared, did not submit their resume to any of the universities they applied to.

OP - assuming they are not a disappearing troll - has, unfortunately, no way to know whether the young woman in question submitted her false resume to the colleges she applied to, or otherwise made a misrepresentation on her common app.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread fascinates me whether it is a troll or not. Many people face these same dilemmas and choices. I talked with my DS, who attends an elite college and he says "absolutely, students lose their spots from behavior like this. they just go on to a different, less fact checking school. there are quite a few scandals well known at the school"
As a parent, I once faced a similar dilemma at our private school. A parent I knew slightly asked about our school. I said it was a terrific school and so on. Later I found out that her DS was the class drug dealer facing expulsion at his old school ... awkward.

What did you do?

PP ^^ Made some vague statements to the AD at a meeting to the effect of the need to double check things ... how important that was and so on. It came out in the recommendations. Not explicit, just not very positive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I worked in college admissions for several years, and sadly, this sort of thing (reportings of assumed improprieties by admitted students) happens often. In many cases we simply shook our heads at how cut throat college admissions had become and how terribly jealous and vindictive rejected families can be. This after double checking many, many reportings that proved to be false. The whistleblower reported what they thought was the case but ended up being wrong. It is possible that the student did NOT claim that leadership position on the college app although it was on her personal website. She may have crafted the resume under the assumption the position would be hers before it was filled by your son then simply forgot about it. Really, how often do adults update their resumes? Now imagine being a HS student in the throes of college admissions. We actually had a parent report that an admitted student's parent had been arrested!!! It makes the rejected student look bad and reaffirms the belief that the correct student was rejected. The decision rests with OP, but my school has never rescinded an offer based on a report. If she'd altered transcripts, SAT scores, forged teacher recs that's one thing. Exaggerating in an essay (we're much more interested in gleaning personality and writing ability) or in the activity section was no deal breaker. We know kids make up stories about volunteering and helping old people cross the street. Whatever. We were much more interested in the numbers as a base line. Everything else was gravy.

Also, one AD handles all the apps from the son's school. If they didn't catch or care about the doubly claimed position, I doubt it will matter.

OP this is the reason I would be careful. She sounds all reasonable, but what she is really saying is that the school does not want to admit that they do not really fact check." ...they have in the past and it was a waste of time ...."

Former admissions officer again. I was actually going to make this point in my initial post. Always be careful when asking someone to reconsider a decision they have made. Admissions prides themselves on the time and care with which applications are considered. Unless the admitted student's deception was so egregious there's no way an AD could've known it (ex: the forged transcript, altered SAT scores, etc--which are nearly impossible to fake, as they are sent directly from agencies), they are unlikely to say, "Oh, I shoulda caught that!" because that would mean admitting to being asleep at the wheel.

That said, we would've been willing to admit it if the deceptive information had a huge impact on the outcome. A slight exaggeration in the activities or essay section, as I said before, is unlikely to change anything. (We all knew every single kid didn't walk away from that missions trip with a greater appreciation for what they have--if they actually went on the trip...didn't care. And we often doubted the claim that they went home and donated all of their clothes and sold their electronics to donate to the poor afterward. However, we got an idea of what values the child thought they should have at 18, their personalities, and again, writing ability.)

Again, it's OP's decision, which it sounds like she has made, but please prepare yourself for the possibility nothing may happen as a result of DS's reporting.

Rarely does someone piss me off to this point, but former admissions counselor, congratulations - you've accomplished just that. Let me take you through your points one by one:

1) You say you all shake your heads at how cutthroat the process has become, as though you are not part of the problem. Do you think these kids WANT to work the equivalent of two full-time jobs, what with classwork, homework, expected charitable work, expected extra curriculars and excel at it all? They do it to try to impress YOU and your school's ridiculous expectations.

2) Your mentioning of other folks being jealous and vindictive is neither here nor there, and in fact, comes of as a dig at the OP and her son, who are absolutely correct in their outrage at this girl's blatant lie. To additionally say "how many people forget to update their resume....excuse me? This was no accident and she should not have claimed to have won a position that she hasn't - even if she think she was probably expecting it, which, by the way, is pretty narcissistic. This is more akin to the stolen valor that we've seen by some politicians. No matter how you look at it, it's wrong

3) The fact that you tolerate kids making up stories about volunteering? Good to know. I'm sure parents who have spent thousands of dollars to ensure their kid jumped through that required college admissions hoop appreciates the fact that if a student lies about their trip, it's of no never mind to admissions directors. What values a kid THINKS they should have is easily faked. I'm glad we didn't push these kinds of trips on our kids, and instead, taught them to be kind and thoughtful on an everyday basis. You admissions people might not consider that a big fat checkmark, but we parents sleep better at night knowing we raised genuinely kind-hearted kids.

4) Learning a kid has lied about an award, in fact stealing that award from someone else, SHOULD matter to admissions director. The fact that an admissions director wouldn't react because it means 'they were asleep at the wheel' tells me that the admissions director needs a new job. And were I that person's supervisor, that person would be gone from my employ. I have news for you; lying should have a huge impact on the outcome. Character matters.

5) As for your comment "prepare yourself for nothing happening". That may be so. The OP's child cannot control what others will do with the information he provides. But make no mistake - something WILL happen. OP's son will walk away with a sense of honor, knowing he did the right thing. And will also know that his parents will be very proud of him. Again - character matters. And OP's son seems to have a whole heap of it. Congratulations, OP. You've done good. Your son is turning into a fine man.

Thank you for this. Well put. Taking credit for someone else's work, award, lying about community service, cheating ... it matters. I hope the person stating that she is an AD is really just a troll, because she is completely in the wrong job if she is in fact an AD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I worked in college admissions for several years, and sadly, this sort of thing (reportings of assumed improprieties by admitted students) happens often. In many cases we simply shook our heads at how cut throat college admissions had become and how terribly jealous and vindictive rejected families can be. This after double checking many, many reportings that proved to be false. The whistleblower reported what they thought was the case but ended up being wrong. It is possible that the student did NOT claim that leadership position on the college app although it was on her personal website. She may have crafted the resume under the assumption the position would be hers before it was filled by your son then simply forgot about it. Really, how often do adults update their resumes? Now imagine being a HS student in the throes of college admissions. We actually had a parent report that an admitted student's parent had been arrested!!! It makes the rejected student look bad and reaffirms the belief that the correct student was rejected. The decision rests with OP, but my school has never rescinded an offer based on a report. If she'd altered transcripts, SAT scores, forged teacher recs that's one thing. Exaggerating in an essay (we're much more interested in gleaning personality and writing ability) or in the activity section was no deal breaker. We know kids make up stories about volunteering and helping old people cross the street. Whatever. We were much more interested in the numbers as a base line. Everything else was gravy.

Also, one AD handles all the apps from the son's school. If they didn't catch or care about the doubly claimed position, I doubt it will matter.

OP this is the reason I would be careful. She sounds all reasonable, but what she is really saying is that the school does not want to admit that they do not really fact check." ...they have in the past and it was a waste of time ...."

Former admissions officer again. I was actually going to make this point in my initial post. Always be careful when asking someone to reconsider a decision they have made. Admissions prides themselves on the time and care with which applications are considered. Unless the admitted student's deception was so egregious there's no way an AD could've known it (ex: the forged transcript, altered SAT scores, etc--which are nearly impossible to fake, as they are sent directly from agencies), they are unlikely to say, "Oh, I shoulda caught that!" because that would mean admitting to being asleep at the wheel.

That said, we would've been willing to admit it if the deceptive information had a huge impact on the outcome. A slight exaggeration in the activities or essay section, as I said before, is unlikely to change anything. (We all knew every single kid didn't walk away from that missions trip with a greater appreciation for what they have--if they actually went on the trip...didn't care. And we often doubted the claim that they went home and donated all of their clothes and sold their electronics to donate to the poor afterward. However, we got an idea of what values the child thought they should have at 18, their personalities, and again, writing ability.)

Again, it's OP's decision, which it sounds like she has made, but please prepare yourself for the possibility nothing may happen as a result of DS's reporting.

Rarely does someone piss me off to this point, but former admissions counselor, congratulations - you've accomplished just that. Let me take you through your points one by one:

1) You say you all shake your heads at how cutthroat the process has become, as though you are not part of the problem. Do you think these kids WANT to work the equivalent of two full-time jobs, what with classwork, homework, expected charitable work, expected extra curriculars and excel at it all? They do it to try to impress YOU and your school's ridiculous expectations.

2) Your mentioning of other folks being jealous and vindictive is neither here nor there, and in fact, comes of as a dig at the OP and her son, who are absolutely correct in their outrage at this girl's blatant lie. To additionally say "how many people forget to update their resume....excuse me? This was no accident and she should not have claimed to have won a position that she hasn't - even if she think she was probably expecting it, which, by the way, is pretty narcissistic. This is more akin to the stolen valor that we've seen by some politicians. No matter how you look at it, it's wrong

3) The fact that you tolerate kids making up stories about volunteering? Good to know. I'm sure parents who have spent thousands of dollars to ensure their kid jumped through that required college admissions hoop appreciates the fact that if a student lies about their trip, it's of no never mind to admissions directors. What values a kid THINKS they should have is easily faked. I'm glad we didn't push these kinds of trips on our kids, and instead, taught them to be kind and thoughtful on an everyday basis. You admissions people might not consider that a big fat checkmark, but we parents sleep better at night knowing we raised genuinely kind-hearted kids.

4) Learning a kid has lied about an award, in fact stealing that award from someone else, SHOULD matter to admissions director. The fact that an admissions director wouldn't react because it means 'they were asleep at the wheel' tells me that the admissions director needs a new job. And were I that person's supervisor, that person would be gone from my employ. I have news for you; lying should have a huge impact on the outcome. Character matters.

5) As for your comment "prepare yourself for nothing happening". That may be so. The OP's child cannot control what others will do with the information he provides. But make no mistake - something WILL happen. OP's son will walk away with a sense of honor, knowing he did the right thing. And will also know that his parents will be very proud of him. Again - character matters. And OP's son seems to have a whole heap of it. Congratulations, OP. You've done good. Your son is turning into a fine man.

Thank you for addressing the AD, and putting into words what I could not exactly put my finger on. Resume fraud (and claiming you held a position that someone else did is clearly fraud) was grounds for termination at my law firm, no matter when it was discovered. The AD also did not take the time to read the original post carefully enough to realize that the son had no desire to attend the college in question. This was not about sour grapes, this was a moral dilemma, one that he was painfully aware of since he had actually held the position in question.

At my law school, we had an honor code that included that it was an honor violation not to report a violation of the honor code that you witnessed or had knowledge of. That always made me so uncomfortable, and thankfully it never came up, but 30 years later I understand the reasoning behind it a lot more and have a lot more respect for the people who developed it. I went to UVA and we had a single sanction system which is why I thought it was so harsh - any law student found guilty of violating the honor code (including the failure to report aspect) was automatically expelled. But our honor code relieved us of the moral dilemma the OP's son was in, and reinforced how serious honor code violations are.

We see this kind of hubris by our political leaders all the time, and eventually this girl would have been caught (one would hope). If I were the OP's son, I would also have been seriously troubled by the idea that the girl got a slot at a college that she did not deserve due to her unethical behavior if she lied on her application. Whether her having held the position in question was outcome determinative in the admissions process itself is irrelevant. As someone else pointed out, when a student is caught cheating after college admissions decisions are made, many schools feel an obligation to inform the colleges and frequently acceptances are rescinded, despite how otherwise qualified that student was as an applicant. I think this is the same kind of situation if I understand it correctly. It was her "resume" posted on her FB page and presumably she did not have a different one that she submitted to colleges, who, as people know, check students' online activity.

I was profoundly disturbed by the flippancy with which the AD treated this entire incident. All applicants lie in their essays based on how they think they are supposed to feel? All applicants exaggerate what they have done and the positions they have held in high school? What on earth? It is one thing to object, as I do, to how much kids are expected to do these days to make them attractive applicants to competitive colleges. It is an entirely different thing for an Admissions Director to say that he or she assumes they lie about it. You have really done all college admissions departments a severe disservice by your posts here, and if I could identify you I would promptly request that you be fired, because our students deserve someone better than you looking over their lives and making judgements about who deserves to be admitted to your college or university, and whether or not this kind of blatant misrepresentation is a big deal. It is. If you want someone like this at your school, and you assume that everyone who applies to your school is like this to some degree, I don't want my child to attend your school. Many of our kids are honest and have a lot of heart. You do not deserve to be reviewing their applications.

I'm the PP who wrote the message to the AD. Thank you - and you wrote a great piece as well (as did the person farther down). I am appalled at how amoral people are becoming.

The new buzzword for Admissions in evaluating applications is 'holistic'. When asked, essentially they blow some sunshine up your butt, but won't define the process.

[Anonymous]

Haven't read this whole thread, but I know a grad from MIT, he now works for the CIA. Lied through his entry into the school, during school (openly admitted cheating, as if he were proud of it), and now continues to lie in his "successful career." His idea was that if you can cheat through it, that in itself is a measure of your success. It's like lance Armstrong, if you're the best at cheating, you're still the winner.

That stated, he might view himself as a winner, but He's a miserable human being. He's crushed his family, has to refer to an "empathy checklist" to make sure he's checking the boys with his now estranged children and is just a general prick.

I'll take my kid not getting into college over them turning out like that. (But then, my kids are little, so maybe I'll go insane before then.)

[Anonymous]

Boys is box

[Anonymous]

I might mention it to the girls parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I might mention it to the girls parents.

If she's really lying, they know already. And they don't car.