Think twice before hiring an advocate…

[Anonymous]

If school staff met kids needs parents and advocates would not need to step in to advocate. Our principal was a huge bully as was the special education teacher. They did not get my child. Some teachers tried and went above and beyond, but most didn’t get our child. The principal would scream at us about things in our iep meetings that made no sense acting like we were dumb and had no clue. We had our child in many many hours of private services starting at age two, multiple private evaluations, which we gave them. Our private therapists reached out multiple times to school staff to coordinate services and school staff refused to meet with them. They tried to bully us onto a false school diagnosis so they could keep their special education teachers but would not offer more services based off the diagnosis. In hindsight I should have hired an advocate but instead we walked away from the useless iep that they did not follow and was recycled from another child, whose name was in it with multiple careless mistakes and continued in private services. In the end our efforts paid off without school help but most people cannot or will not do what we did nor would that work for the majority of kids.

People like op need to be fired. No services are sometimes better than bad services, which really hurt my child as they were pulled out of class for groups that did not work on my child’s needs but focused on other higher needs kids.

Op, not being cold, but staffing issues are not parents problems. Other kids are not our problem too. We want all kids to get the help they need but as parents our focus is getting our kids the help they need so they can be successful now and in the future.

And, thank you to the amazing teachers and staff who do go above and beyond to help our kids be successful. Don’t think for a moment we don’t see what you do but sometimes parents are just trying to survive and things like a simple thank you get forgotten, especially when we hit that stage in life with our kids, aging parents, work and our own health issues.

I’d encourage any parent who can afford it to get an advocate. It’s very hard going into meetings where the focus is to get out of helping vs helping.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's more about hiring GOOD advocates or lawyers. And good doesn't mean angry. These aren't murder cases. We're all on the same team. I've been GRILLED by lawyers picking apart the wording of my goals. Not the actual goals but minute details that don't actually change anything. Even in the moment I knew they were just trying to collect billable hours. I agreed to their changes early on (becuase it didn't actually affect anything for the kid or the staff) and it still took an hour for them to grill me on 3 objectives. The meeting itself was 6 hours.

This is what causes frustration in the staff. A reasonable person would have had a normal adult conversation about some wording and come to some agreement. But they made me feel like a criminal on trial.

I'm all for advocates and lawyers when they're actually needed. Not to bully teachers.

Exactly. They do like to bully teachers and get their billable hours. They do not actually care about the child.

We could have really used someone to bully our bullying principal and special education teacher who could not even be bothered to get our child’s name right, let alone have an accurate diagnosis and proper iep. I think part of it was they knew we were handling it outside school and they deemed our child less worthy than other kids who they perceived as higher needs when they weren’t, just different needs that the school staff did not understand or try too.

[Anonymous]

I have a SN kid on the spectrum and I never met teachers or principals or whatever who didn't support the needs of our kid. But I met a lot of parents who just handed over their child fom day one to a nanny or to daycare and never lift a finger to educate their kid themselfes. They expect the school to handle everything for them and solve all the behavioral issues of their kid but refuse to make their own homework.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a SN kid on the spectrum and I never met teachers or principals or whatever who didn't support the needs of our kid. But I met a lot of parents who just handed over their child fom day one to a nanny or to daycare and never lift a finger to educate their kid themselfes. They expect the school to handle everything for them and solve all the behavioral issues of their kid but refuse to make their own homework.

Well isn’t that just fabulous for you. I would say that’s rare, to NEVER have met anyone in the school system that isn’t supportive. Incredibly rare. Just F off with the attitude that because we are fighting for our kids rights, it must mean we basically aren’t parenting our children.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:All these parents seem to want teachers to quit and then what? Probably sue the school districts even though it’s not their fault. The fault lies with a federal law that isn’t accompanied by money. There is no way for districts to meet what parents demand these days; the system is irrevocable broken.

OP here. I think my real point got lost in my lab frustration yesterday. But this is the real truth- all students will now be getting a lot less without these two teachers, and it’s not that easy to replace them (we already have one gen ed vacancy that we have been completely unable to fill). If you want us to leave and find a job where we are respected, then fine. We might. I am just so sick of being painted like the enemy when all I want is to help kids achieve.

Nobody wants teachers to quit. We do want you to follow the law.

Don't take it out on the teachers. Take it out on the system that doesn't provide anywhere close to the resources needed.

The only way to take it “ out on the system” is to pursue a child’s legal right to an education and file an ocr complaint or due process when those rights are infringed upon. Most parents don’t have that knowledge, but guess who does, advocates and attorneys. No one wants an adversarial relationship with a school/ principal/ teacher but when your child is denied an appropriate education bc they have a disability, parents are going to have feelings about that.

What the OP tried to explain, and I think has gone missing is that when you do the above, you are taking it out on the teacher. I am not a SPED teacher but work closely with that department at my school. We have 3 SPED teachers per our district budget for grades k-5. In 5th alone we have multiple students with 15+hrs per week of pull out service. In our 3rd grade we had 4 new students come in with IEPs, making that teachers caseload upwards of 15.
Now, you don't have to be a mathematician to understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE for 3 people to fulfill all those hours. This is a systemic issue.
When you are then calling for more meetings to rail at the system, you are taking those teachers away from the precious, finite hours they have to service their students.

I get it. IDEA is an unfunded mandate and absolutely needs to be revamped. However your rebelling against the machine is only hurting the people on the bottom level. You're not affecting real change, unless you consider the current teacher shortage

I disagree with you, we are no more taking it out of the teachers than teachers are taking it out on the kids by providing minimal services. The only way it is going to change is if it starts to cost districts more either monetarily or by public perception. The way you do that is hold them to standards and make them accountable for the standards.
It’s really frustrating to hear so many people, who I assume work in schools, basically state we should just be happy to receive something for our kids and not ask for too much. I’m fairly certain that wouldn’t be said to neurotypical children.

I promise you I'm not saying that. I'm saying that we are not the people in control of what you want. Stop calling meetings with us if you want to affect change. Meet with principals, district superintendents, people in central office in charge of SPED.

NP. You mean the principal who told me in the first IEP meeting (transitioning from PEP) that they didn't have the staff or the time to provide my kindergartner the services that were in the IEP? The principal who told me and the PEP team she knew we were used to my child being "coddled" like a "baby bird", but that he would be just fine in kindergarten? That one?

I lawyered up and it was miraculous what was suddenly possible. We ended up getting a private placement without ever having to file due process. No way that would have happened without the attorney and advocate. Not with that principal.

We're saying the same thing lol. The principal is the one to talk to and escalate situations with, not the teachers

No. We are not saying the same thing. You are saying “go to the principal”. If it wasn’t clear from what I wrote, it is the principals themselves in some cases that are denying children their legal rights. They do this because they will get away with it in the vast majority of cases.

In that case, I'm even less sure why you think it's helpful to take more time from teachers, who have even less power of these things.

You are all accountable.

It's like you don't even listen when other people talk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If school staff met kids needs parents and advocates would not need to step in to advocate. Our principal was a huge bully as was the special education teacher. They did not get my child. Some teachers tried and went above and beyond, but most didn’t get our child. The principal would scream at us about things in our iep meetings that made no sense acting like we were dumb and had no clue. We had our child in many many hours of private services starting at age two, multiple private evaluations, which we gave them. Our private therapists reached out multiple times to school staff to coordinate services and school staff refused to meet with them. They tried to bully us onto a false school diagnosis so they could keep their special education teachers but would not offer more services based off the diagnosis. In hindsight I should have hired an advocate but instead we walked away from the useless iep that they did not follow and was recycled from another child, whose name was in it with multiple careless mistakes and continued in private services. In the end our efforts paid off without school help but most people cannot or will not do what we did nor would that work for the majority of kids.

People like op need to be fired. No services are sometimes better than bad services, which really hurt my child as they were pulled out of class for groups that did not work on my child’s needs but focused on other higher needs kids.

Op, not being cold, but staffing issues are not parents problems. Other kids are not our problem too. We want all kids to get the help they need but as parents our focus is getting our kids the help they need so they can be successful now and in the future.

And, thank you to the amazing teachers and staff who do go above and beyond to help our kids be successful. Don’t think for a moment we don’t see what you do but sometimes parents are just trying to survive and things like a simple thank you get forgotten, especially when we hit that stage in life with our kids, aging parents, work and our own health issues.

I’d encourage any parent who can afford it to get an advocate. It’s very hard going into meetings where the focus is to get out of helping vs helping.

I have never experienced this in FCPS. I have worked with wonderful, caring, professional, intelligent, accountable, staff. I believe that there are bad apples out there. But the OP said a family had an advocate for a team tjhey have never met before. Many families come with an advocate or an attorney to an initial referrral or meeting. They have no trust or respect and aren't assuming good will. OP said "assume good will." Families are never assuming positive intent of staff anymore. This is why staff don't want to work for FCPS.

And yes- you should care about other kids. You should care about staff. It IS your problem. It DOES affect your child and all children and the future of our country. You are responsible to more than just your child.

You wrote "the focus is to get out of helping vs helping." I have never once experienced that or seen that by FCPS staff. I have seen many families expect special education services for their children who do not meet DOE requirements, and get mad at FCPS or a school for following DOE guidelines, and it goes to battle with an advocate until FCPS gives in to make the battle and hostility stop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a SN kid on the spectrum and I never met teachers or principals or whatever who didn't support the needs of our kid. But I met a lot of parents who just handed over their child fom day one to a nanny or to daycare and never lift a finger to educate their kid themselfes. They expect the school to handle everything for them and solve all the behavioral issues of their kid but refuse to make their own homework.

This is terrible logic. I’ve never met any parents of trans kids or with girl twins. So that must not mean there are any out there….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If school staff met kids needs parents and advocates would not need to step in to advocate. Our principal was a huge bully as was the special education teacher. They did not get my child. Some teachers tried and went above and beyond, but most didn’t get our child. The principal would scream at us about things in our iep meetings that made no sense acting like we were dumb and had no clue. We had our child in many many hours of private services starting at age two, multiple private evaluations, which we gave them. Our private therapists reached out multiple times to school staff to coordinate services and school staff refused to meet with them. They tried to bully us onto a false school diagnosis so they could keep their special education teachers but would not offer more services based off the diagnosis. In hindsight I should have hired an advocate but instead we walked away from the useless iep that they did not follow and was recycled from another child, whose name was in it with multiple careless mistakes and continued in private services. In the end our efforts paid off without school help but most people cannot or will not do what we did nor would that work for the majority of kids.

People like op need to be fired. No services are sometimes better than bad services, which really hurt my child as they were pulled out of class for groups that did not work on my child’s needs but focused on other higher needs kids.

Op, not being cold, but staffing issues are not parents problems. Other kids are not our problem too. We want all kids to get the help they need but as parents our focus is getting our kids the help they need so they can be successful now and in the future.

And, thank you to the amazing teachers and staff who do go above and beyond to help our kids be successful. Don’t think for a moment we don’t see what you do but sometimes parents are just trying to survive and things like a simple thank you get forgotten, especially when we hit that stage in life with our kids, aging parents, work and our own health issues.

I’d encourage any parent who can afford it to get an advocate. It’s very hard going into meetings where the focus is to get out of helping vs helping.

I have never experienced this in FCPS. I have worked with wonderful, caring, professional, intelligent, accountable, staff. I believe that there are bad apples out there. But the OP said a family had an advocate for a team tjhey have never met before. Many families come with an advocate or an attorney to an initial referrral or meeting. They have no trust or respect and aren't assuming good will. OP said "assume good will." Families are never assuming positive intent of staff anymore. This is why staff don't want to work for FCPS.

And yes- you should care about other kids. You should care about staff. It IS your problem. It DOES affect your child and all children and the future of our country. You are responsible to more than just your child.

You wrote "the focus is to get out of helping vs helping." I have never once experienced that or seen that by FCPS staff. I have seen many families expect special education services for their children who do not meet DOE requirements, and get mad at FCPS or a school for following DOE guidelines, and it goes to battle with an advocate until FCPS gives in to make the battle and hostility stop.

FCPS schools have finite resources. There simply are not enough hours available to give every kid the IEP they need and to meet the requirements. Principals know this and push where they can get away with it. Blame the county, state, and federal governments for not adequately funding special education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If school staff met kids needs parents and advocates would not need to step in to advocate. Our principal was a huge bully as was the special education teacher. They did not get my child. Some teachers tried and went above and beyond, but most didn’t get our child. The principal would scream at us about things in our iep meetings that made no sense acting like we were dumb and had no clue. We had our child in many many hours of private services starting at age two, multiple private evaluations, which we gave them. Our private therapists reached out multiple times to school staff to coordinate services and school staff refused to meet with them. They tried to bully us onto a false school diagnosis so they could keep their special education teachers but would not offer more services based off the diagnosis. In hindsight I should have hired an advocate but instead we walked away from the useless iep that they did not follow and was recycled from another child, whose name was in it with multiple careless mistakes and continued in private services. In the end our efforts paid off without school help but most people cannot or will not do what we did nor would that work for the majority of kids.

People like op need to be fired. No services are sometimes better than bad services, which really hurt my child as they were pulled out of class for groups that did not work on my child’s needs but focused on other higher needs kids.

Op, not being cold, but staffing issues are not parents problems. Other kids are not our problem too. We want all kids to get the help they need but as parents our focus is getting our kids the help they need so they can be successful now and in the future.

And, thank you to the amazing teachers and staff who do go above and beyond to help our kids be successful. Don’t think for a moment we don’t see what you do but sometimes parents are just trying to survive and things like a simple thank you get forgotten, especially when we hit that stage in life with our kids, aging parents, work and our own health issues.

I’d encourage any parent who can afford it to get an advocate. It’s very hard going into meetings where the focus is to get out of helping vs helping.

I have never experienced this in FCPS. I have worked with wonderful, caring, professional, intelligent, accountable, staff. I believe that there are bad apples out there. But the OP said a family had an advocate for a team tjhey have never met before. Many families come with an advocate or an attorney to an initial referrral or meeting. They have no trust or respect and aren't assuming good will. OP said "assume good will." Families are never assuming positive intent of staff anymore. This is why staff don't want to work for FCPS.

And yes- you should care about other kids. You should care about staff. It IS your problem. It DOES affect your child and all children and the future of our country. You are responsible to more than just your child.

You wrote "the focus is to get out of helping vs helping." I have never once experienced that or seen that by FCPS staff. I have seen many families expect special education services for their children who do not meet DOE requirements, and get mad at FCPS or a school for following DOE guidelines, and it goes to battle with an advocate until FCPS gives in to make the battle and hostility stop.

FCPS schools have finite resources. There simply are not enough hours available to give every kid the IEP they need and to meet the requirements. Principals know this and push where they can get away with it. Blame the county, state, and federal governments for not adequately funding special education.

Bingo. The vast majority (99%) of SPED educators absolutely want to support kids to the best of their ability. However, they are extremely limited by lack of funding/workload.

We need a shift in our country to prioritize - and fund - education, including SPED.

[Anonymous]

My DC had an IEP from 2nd grade through 12. We hired an advocate in 3rd grade and in 7th grade. Both times it triggered staff from the Pyramid or Gatehouse to attend and both times the school was told to do things differently. It was very stressful, but it improved the services DC was receiving.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If school staff met kids needs parents and advocates would not need to step in to advocate. Our principal was a huge bully as was the special education teacher. They did not get my child. Some teachers tried and went above and beyond, but most didn’t get our child. The principal would scream at us about things in our iep meetings that made no sense acting like we were dumb and had no clue. We had our child in many many hours of private services starting at age two, multiple private evaluations, which we gave them. Our private therapists reached out multiple times to school staff to coordinate services and school staff refused to meet with them. They tried to bully us onto a false school diagnosis so they could keep their special education teachers but would not offer more services based off the diagnosis. In hindsight I should have hired an advocate but instead we walked away from the useless iep that they did not follow and was recycled from another child, whose name was in it with multiple careless mistakes and continued in private services. In the end our efforts paid off without school help but most people cannot or will not do what we did nor would that work for the majority of kids.

People like op need to be fired. No services are sometimes better than bad services, which really hurt my child as they were pulled out of class for groups that did not work on my child’s needs but focused on other higher needs kids.

Op, not being cold, but staffing issues are not parents problems. Other kids are not our problem too. We want all kids to get the help they need but as parents our focus is getting our kids the help they need so they can be successful now and in the future.

And, thank you to the amazing teachers and staff who do go above and beyond to help our kids be successful. Don’t think for a moment we don’t see what you do but sometimes parents are just trying to survive and things like a simple thank you get forgotten, especially when we hit that stage in life with our kids, aging parents, work and our own health issues.

I’d encourage any parent who can afford it to get an advocate. It’s very hard going into meetings where the focus is to get out of helping vs helping.

I have never experienced this in FCPS. I have worked with wonderful, caring, professional, intelligent, accountable, staff. I believe that there are bad apples out there. But the OP said a family had an advocate for a team tjhey have never met before. Many families come with an advocate or an attorney to an initial referrral or meeting. They have no trust or respect and aren't assuming good will. OP said "assume good will." Families are never assuming positive intent of staff anymore. This is why staff don't want to work for FCPS.

And yes- you should care about other kids. You should care about staff. It IS your problem. It DOES affect your child and all children and the future of our country. You are responsible to more than just your child.

You wrote "the focus is to get out of helping vs helping." I have never once experienced that or seen that by FCPS staff. I have seen many families expect special education services for their children who do not meet DOE requirements, and get mad at FCPS or a school for following DOE guidelines, and it goes to battle with an advocate until FCPS gives in to make the battle and hostility stop.

Why would staff, and you, assume parents who come with an advocate don't have good will? Why would you and schools staff not recognize that navigating special education is an area very few parents have expertise in and value the input of an advisor to help them navigate/interpret the processes, evaluations and goal setting?

How is have an advocate for IEP meetins any different than having a doula attend to you during childbirth? Don't you trust the doctors and nurses? Don't you assume good will? Or, did you hear enough about the challenging experiences others may have had a feel better knowing that you've got someone looking out for and advocating for your interests?

I challenge your assertion that teachers don't want to for FCPS because of parents. They don't want to work with FCPS because they are under-resourced and under-supported. Focus your blame on where it's deserved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these parents seem to want teachers to quit and then what? Probably sue the school districts even though it’s not their fault. The fault lies with a federal law that isn’t accompanied by money. There is no way for districts to meet what parents demand these days; the system is irrevocable broken.

OP here. I think my real point got lost in my lab frustration yesterday. But this is the real truth- all students will now be getting a lot less without these two teachers, and it’s not that easy to replace them (we already have one gen ed vacancy that we have been completely unable to fill). If you want us to leave and find a job where we are respected, then fine. We might. I am just so sick of being painted like the enemy when all I want is to help kids achieve.

Then you need to realize that plenty of other teachers, administrators, and central office personnel have treated US like the enemy over the years for asking for the bare minimum of what's legally required. So maybe you're one of the good ones. But we've been through a lot. And our kids are traumatized.

[Anonymous]

OP and the other 'blame the parents' ought to read this article from Wright's Law. Althought the article focuses on when a parent is blamed for learning problems, there are a lot of insights into school culture and, interestingly, a study of why so many parents struggle with schools.

https://www.wrightslaw.com/advoc/articles/ALESSI1.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If school staff met kids needs parents and advocates would not need to step in to advocate. Our principal was a huge bully as was the special education teacher. They did not get my child. Some teachers tried and went above and beyond, but most didn’t get our child. The principal would scream at us about things in our iep meetings that made no sense acting like we were dumb and had no clue. We had our child in many many hours of private services starting at age two, multiple private evaluations, which we gave them. Our private therapists reached out multiple times to school staff to coordinate services and school staff refused to meet with them. They tried to bully us onto a false school diagnosis so they could keep their special education teachers but would not offer more services based off the diagnosis. In hindsight I should have hired an advocate but instead we walked away from the useless iep that they did not follow and was recycled from another child, whose name was in it with multiple careless mistakes and continued in private services. In the end our efforts paid off without school help but most people cannot or will not do what we did nor would that work for the majority of kids.

People like op need to be fired. No services are sometimes better than bad services, which really hurt my child as they were pulled out of class for groups that did not work on my child’s needs but focused on other higher needs kids.

Op, not being cold, but staffing issues are not parents problems. Other kids are not our problem too. We want all kids to get the help they need but as parents our focus is getting our kids the help they need so they can be successful now and in the future.

And, thank you to the amazing teachers and staff who do go above and beyond to help our kids be successful. Don’t think for a moment we don’t see what you do but sometimes parents are just trying to survive and things like a simple thank you get forgotten, especially when we hit that stage in life with our kids, aging parents, work and our own health issues.

I’d encourage any parent who can afford it to get an advocate. It’s very hard going into meetings where the focus is to get out of helping vs helping.

I have never experienced this in FCPS. I have worked with wonderful, caring, professional, intelligent, accountable, staff. I believe that there are bad apples out there. But the OP said a family had an advocate for a team tjhey have never met before. Many families come with an advocate or an attorney to an initial referrral or meeting. They have no trust or respect and aren't assuming good will. OP said "assume good will." Families are never assuming positive intent of staff anymore. This is why staff don't want to work for FCPS.

And yes- you should care about other kids. You should care about staff. It IS your problem. It DOES affect your child and all children and the future of our country. You are responsible to more than just your child.

You wrote "the focus is to get out of helping vs helping." I have never once experienced that or seen that by FCPS staff. I have seen many families expect special education services for their children who do not meet DOE requirements, and get mad at FCPS or a school for following DOE guidelines, and it goes to battle with an advocate until FCPS gives in to make the battle and hostility stop.

You are lucky. Our experience was horrible. No, other kids are not my problem. Mine are. I needed to get my child to a functioning level where they’d be ok. I did not have time to worry about other kids. We got very little. We spent a fortune we did not have for private services.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a SN kid on the spectrum and I never met teachers or principals or whatever who didn't support the needs of our kid. But I met a lot of parents who just handed over their child fom day one to a nanny or to daycare and never lift a finger to educate their kid themselfes. They expect the school to handle everything for them and solve all the behavioral issues of their kid but refuse to make their own homework.

Or, those of us who never handed off anything to the schools. Some of us quit our jobs to take our kids to many hours of therapy, tutoring on top of what we did at home. I pulled my kid out early many days until we got a later spot. We did daily therapies, on top of supplementing academics because they dumped my kid in a class with mostly iep kids and they dumbed down the academics thinking our kids were not smart and capable and did what was best for them. We had to drop the iep to get out of the classroom. Sadly mine did better after removing the iep and bad classroom. My kid was bullied every day by another kid. They were touched, kicked and full body squeezes that the teachers blew off as hugs. The hugs were not wanted and because of my child’s needs they could not advocate for themselves or say no.

You have no idea the sacrifices some of us make. Go to any speech or ot office after school and see it packed with parents doing the best they can for their kids. That’s where you found me every afternoon.

So, when you rant about working at least you got to work. I could not work being a full time taxi driver because people like you failed to give my kid what they needed and I was going to do what ever it took to get my child caught up and ok by high school. You have no idea what it’s like to parent a kid with special needs and what sone of us do for our kids.

And despite people like you who said my kid would never catch up, well, they did and are doing great despite the lack of school support. So, keep complaining vs helping. You clearly have the time if you can post here.