Think twice before hiring an advocate…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these parents seem to want teachers to quit and then what? Probably sue the school districts even though it’s not their fault. The fault lies with a federal law that isn’t accompanied by money. There is no way for districts to meet what parents demand these days; the system is irrevocable broken.

OP here. I think my real point got lost in my lab frustration yesterday. But this is the real truth- all students will now be getting a lot less without these two teachers, and it’s not that easy to replace them (we already have one gen ed vacancy that we have been completely unable to fill). If you want us to leave and find a job where we are respected, then fine. We might. I am just so sick of being painted like the enemy when all I want is to help kids achieve.

Nobody wants teachers to quit. We do want you to follow the law.

Don't take it out on the teachers. Take it out on the system that doesn't provide anywhere close to the resources needed.

The only way to take it “ out on the system” is to pursue a child’s legal right to an education and file an ocr complaint or due process when those rights are infringed upon. Most parents don’t have that knowledge, but guess who does, advocates and attorneys. No one wants an adversarial relationship with a school/ principal/ teacher but when your child is denied an appropriate education bc they have a disability, parents are going to have feelings about that.

What the OP tried to explain, and I think has gone missing is that when you do the above, you are taking it out on the teacher. I am not a SPED teacher but work closely with that department at my school. We have 3 SPED teachers per our district budget for grades k-5. In 5th alone we have multiple students with 15+hrs per week of pull out service. In our 3rd grade we had 4 new students come in with IEPs, making that teachers caseload upwards of 15.
Now, you don't have to be a mathematician to understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE for 3 people to fulfill all those hours. This is a systemic issue.
When you are then calling for more meetings to rail at the system, you are taking those teachers away from the precious, finite hours they have to service their students.

I get it. IDEA is an unfunded mandate and absolutely needs to be revamped. However your rebelling against the machine is only hurting the people on the bottom level. You're not affecting real change, unless you consider the current teacher shortage

I disagree with you, we are no more taking it out of the teachers than teachers are taking it out on the kids by providing minimal services. The only way it is going to change is if it starts to cost districts more either monetarily or by public perception. The way you do that is hold them to standards and make them accountable for the standards.
It’s really frustrating to hear so many people, who I assume work in schools, basically state we should just be happy to receive something for our kids and not ask for too much. I’m fairly certain that wouldn’t be said to neurotypical children.

I promise you I'm not saying that. I'm saying that we are not the people in control of what you want. Stop calling meetings with us if you want to affect change. Meet with principals, district superintendents, people in central office in charge of SPED.

NP. You mean the principal who told me in the first IEP meeting (transitioning from PEP) that they didn't have the staff or the time to provide my kindergartner the services that were in the IEP? The principal who told me and the PEP team she knew we were used to my child being "coddled" like a "baby bird", but that he would be just fine in kindergarten? That one?

I lawyered up and it was miraculous what was suddenly possible. We ended up getting a private placement without ever having to file due process. No way that would have happened without the attorney and advocate. Not with that principal.

We're saying the same thing lol. The principal is the one to talk to and escalate situations with, not the teachers

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think OP's friend isn't really a friend of special needs children. I can't imagine leaving my profession over an IEP meeting that happens once or twice a year. Not a huge loss to the special education committee. I've noticed our school always pulls the teacher least interested in special ed to do these meetings so they can pretend the teachers aren't capable. It's a tactic. They are never the class my child struggles the most with. Usually the single male guy that looks like a deer with the headlights just sitting back hoping not to speak.

Maybe IEP meetings are only once or twice a year for parents - for special education teachers they can be weekly. At your job, how many times would you need to be yelled at and blamed for things out of your control before you quit? Once or twice a year? Every other week?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I totally get it and have been there. It's unbelievably stressful when you are subpoenaed over a student you've never met and have to spend multiple hours of your school day in IEP meetings being bullied by advocates and lawyers with tape recorders while you should be working with your actual students. Mind you that you then have to find time to makeup the service hours you missed while you sat in these awful meetings. Again for a student you've never met. It's an awful. Happened years ago and it's still painful to think about. These things really happen and the school provides very little support to the teachers/ staff when it does.

I’m a school psychologist who posted earlier on this thread. I had one meeting which caused me to call out sick the next day and contemplate quitting. I was accused of fabricating my results and “never actually meeting the child”. This was so patently untrue that it didn’t upset me. But later, the advocate turned to the parent after I fumbled over my words after being asked the same question ten ways and said “and THIS is why you got an outside evaluation”. They also mentioned that the child couldn’t have possibly opened up to me because “I have an unfriendly face”. It really, really hurt me. I have my PhD and could easily work outside of the school setting. But I chose to work in our school system because I really believed in it. I’m back at it and not letting advocates rattle me as much- but it was truly offensive and unprofessional. I also changed schools where admin would have my back more.

I can appreciate and sympathize with your feelings - I suspect most parents can since we have frequently discussed how we have to take the entire day off work when there's an IEP meeting because we're too wrung out from regulating our emotions in our personal life to attend to our professional responsibilities. Have you not seen the posts about how wretched we feel when we're unable to contain our tears at IEP meetings?

I'm the PP who said I am what FCPS has wrought. My youngest is now a senior in HS. When they were in ES, I had to file 2 state complaints and a civil rights complaint to get the 2 of my kids with IEPs appropriate support/services. Looking back, I did exactly what I needed to do. I was right. FCPS was wrong and had I allowed them to do what they proposed, my kids with IEPs would not have graduated with standard diplomas. My older DC would not have been able to choose to go to college. My younger DC with an IEP would have been in a low functioning classroom when he's capable of at least "average" achievement.

I recognize that my DCs are not as needy as some, are minorities and consume scarce resources. Your frustration should be directed at the school system and federal government for not providing sufficient resources not parents doing their best for their kids.

To the psychologist- I understand and have shared your experiences. I have only worked with one advocate who was professional, respectful, and worked towards a common goal. Every other advocate or private therapist expresses contempt, disgust, and disrespect. They do not respect the FCPS staff professional experience or opinion, nor are they familiar with special education law or services. Almost ALL families I have worked with who had an advocate were consumed with anger and denial, and lack of understanding or acceptance for federal law. There is no trust or respect to the school staff, even when the school is (SHOCKINGLY!!) good and doing the right thing. I'm sorry for the families who have had a bad experience, but I've only worked with great professionals who are making appropriate recommendations and following federal law. These upset families spread bad word and create a culture of distrust, "us" versus "them," and "fight" for your rights. It is unacceptable for advocates or families to demean FCPS staff. I have been cussed at, yelled at, and worse by families. But I have never seen an FCPS staff cuss or yell, give dirty looks, or blatantly insult a parent or advocate directly to their face. Double standard, no? I also have wasted hours in meetings listening to an advocate say the same thing over and over again for hours and refusing to hear or accept the other side.

To parents- as soon as you bring an advocate or request to record a meeting, you send a message to the staff that you do not trust them, you do not agree with their professional recommendations, you do not think they have the best interest of your child, and you intend to take legal action against them no matter what. The staff will not feel comfortable speaking to you via email or without an administrator present, and will not be likely to share the candid stories and details that we like to share...for fear of getting sued, reported to the DOE, or criticized so harshly. I am not saying that schools are not required to follow law or do their jobs. I am saying that in my experience, the staff is following the law and doing their jobs- you just do not like it, or are angry or in denial. Or you expect a public school system to operate in a way that is not logistically possible with the staff available. Don't say "get more staff." There is not more staff and they don't want to work for FCPS, primarily because families are never happy no matter what FCPS does. Parents can contact the FCPS special education ombudsman and the procedural support liaison for support- advocates aren't the only option to ensure processes are being followed appropriately.

To advocates- again I have worked with only one advocate who genuinely cared about the student and worked toward a positive outcome. Others have a personal agenda to make money, make a name for themselves, or use your case for a professional mission to advance their career. Advaocats can choose to be professional and collaborate and still advocate. You can show respect for other professionals, even if you disagree. You can use a professional voice, face, and words. It is not acceptable for advocates (or parents) to attack FCPS staff at meetings, even if there is disagreement.

I hope that families and staff can get to a point with some trust and respect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's more about hiring GOOD advocates or lawyers. And good doesn't mean angry. These aren't murder cases. We're all on the same team. I've been GRILLED by lawyers picking apart the wording of my goals. Not the actual goals but minute details that don't actually change anything. Even in the moment I knew they were just trying to collect billable hours. I agreed to their changes early on (becuase it didn't actually affect anything for the kid or the staff) and it still took an hour for them to grill me on 3 objectives. The meeting itself was 6 hours.

This is what causes frustration in the staff. A reasonable person would have had a normal adult conversation about some wording and come to some agreement. But they made me feel like a criminal on trial.

I'm all for advocates and lawyers when they're actually needed. Not to bully teachers.

Exactly. They do like to bully teachers and get their billable hours. They do not actually care about the child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these parents seem to want teachers to quit and then what? Probably sue the school districts even though it’s not their fault. The fault lies with a federal law that isn’t accompanied by money. There is no way for districts to meet what parents demand these days; the system is irrevocable broken.

OP here. I think my real point got lost in my lab frustration yesterday. But this is the real truth- all students will now be getting a lot less without these two teachers, and it’s not that easy to replace them (we already have one gen ed vacancy that we have been completely unable to fill). If you want us to leave and find a job where we are respected, then fine. We might. I am just so sick of being painted like the enemy when all I want is to help kids achieve.

Nobody wants teachers to quit. We do want you to follow the law.

Don't take it out on the teachers. Take it out on the system that doesn't provide anywhere close to the resources needed.

The only way to take it “ out on the system” is to pursue a child’s legal right to an education and file an ocr complaint or due process when those rights are infringed upon. Most parents don’t have that knowledge, but guess who does, advocates and attorneys. No one wants an adversarial relationship with a school/ principal/ teacher but when your child is denied an appropriate education bc they have a disability, parents are going to have feelings about that.

What the OP tried to explain, and I think has gone missing is that when you do the above, you are taking it out on the teacher. I am not a SPED teacher but work closely with that department at my school. We have 3 SPED teachers per our district budget for grades k-5. In 5th alone we have multiple students with 15+hrs per week of pull out service. In our 3rd grade we had 4 new students come in with IEPs, making that teachers caseload upwards of 15.
Now, you don't have to be a mathematician to understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE for 3 people to fulfill all those hours. This is a systemic issue.
When you are then calling for more meetings to rail at the system, you are taking those teachers away from the precious, finite hours they have to service their students.

I get it. IDEA is an unfunded mandate and absolutely needs to be revamped. However your rebelling against the machine is only hurting the people on the bottom level. You're not affecting real change, unless you consider the current teacher shortage

I disagree with you, we are no more taking it out of the teachers than teachers are taking it out on the kids by providing minimal services. The only way it is going to change is if it starts to cost districts more either monetarily or by public perception. The way you do that is hold them to standards and make them accountable for the standards.
It’s really frustrating to hear so many people, who I assume work in schools, basically state we should just be happy to receive something for our kids and not ask for too much. I’m fairly certain that wouldn’t be said to neurotypical children.

The problem is that you expect the teachers to be able to solve your problem. The teachers cannot. If you want more services, you need to advocate at the state and national level for more staff in schools. You also need to advocate at the college level for more programs and opportunities for people to get degrees in education. You need to advocate at the local level that teacher pay is raised, and work environment is good. As a parent, you need to be nice to those at the school level, even if you are frustrated and disagree. That doesn't mean you agree, or don't want more for your child- but you can still be nice. You can also keep meetings brief and not waste everyones time. If it takes 5 minutes to say, don't say it in 60 minutes. You can also be flexible iwth meeting times, instead of demanding meetings before/after contract hours or at times when staff told you they were not available.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I love how none of these clowns want to blame the central office for understaffing and not hiring paras, team leaders for assigning too many kids to a caseload, etc. But no. It must be the evil parents' faults for wanting their kids to access services they are legally entitled to! How dare they! I'm a retired Special Ed teacher and I worked with a lot of low Praxis score idiots like the OP. Parents, please never feel anything resembling guilt for getting your child what they are required by law to have.

You are retired. When did you retire? These parents are something else. As far as "team leaders assigning too many kids to a caseload"- what are they supposed to do? There is not enough staff! Should the student be unassigned and get no case manager? Your post makes no sense.

[Anonymous]

I'm a school staff member who has sat on both sides of the table. The worse experience I've ever had as a parent has been advocating for my child where the school said unprofessional, inappropriate, and incorrect things about my child. In hindsight, I should have had an advocate present, to make the arguments for me, without having to get involved on an emotional level, myself. I ended up having to hire an attorney and was able to secure a few key items to make their schooling more successful I'm still scarred by my experience with the school and now completely understand why parents get to the place they do with the school, and hire help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these parents seem to want teachers to quit and then what? Probably sue the school districts even though it’s not their fault. The fault lies with a federal law that isn’t accompanied by money. There is no way for districts to meet what parents demand these days; the system is irrevocable broken.

OP here. I think my real point got lost in my lab frustration yesterday. But this is the real truth- all students will now be getting a lot less without these two teachers, and it’s not that easy to replace them (we already have one gen ed vacancy that we have been completely unable to fill). If you want us to leave and find a job where we are respected, then fine. We might. I am just so sick of being painted like the enemy when all I want is to help kids achieve.

Nobody wants teachers to quit. We do want you to follow the law.

Don't take it out on the teachers. Take it out on the system that doesn't provide anywhere close to the resources needed.

The only way to take it “ out on the system” is to pursue a child’s legal right to an education and file an ocr complaint or due process when those rights are infringed upon. Most parents don’t have that knowledge, but guess who does, advocates and attorneys. No one wants an adversarial relationship with a school/ principal/ teacher but when your child is denied an appropriate education bc they have a disability, parents are going to have feelings about that.

What the OP tried to explain, and I think has gone missing is that when you do the above, you are taking it out on the teacher. I am not a SPED teacher but work closely with that department at my school. We have 3 SPED teachers per our district budget for grades k-5. In 5th alone we have multiple students with 15+hrs per week of pull out service. In our 3rd grade we had 4 new students come in with IEPs, making that teachers caseload upwards of 15.
Now, you don't have to be a mathematician to understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE for 3 people to fulfill all those hours. This is a systemic issue.
When you are then calling for more meetings to rail at the system, you are taking those teachers away from the precious, finite hours they have to service their students.

I get it. IDEA is an unfunded mandate and absolutely needs to be revamped. However your rebelling against the machine is only hurting the people on the bottom level. You're not affecting real change, unless you consider the current teacher shortage

I disagree with you, we are no more taking it out of the teachers than teachers are taking it out on the kids by providing minimal services. The only way it is going to change is if it starts to cost districts more either monetarily or by public perception. The way you do that is hold them to standards and make them accountable for the standards.
It’s really frustrating to hear so many people, who I assume work in schools, basically state we should just be happy to receive something for our kids and not ask for too much. I’m fairly certain that wouldn’t be said to neurotypical children.

I promise you I'm not saying that. I'm saying that we are not the people in control of what you want. Stop calling meetings with us if you want to affect change. Meet with principals, district superintendents, people in central office in charge of SPED.

NP. You mean the principal who told me in the first IEP meeting (transitioning from PEP) that they didn't have the staff or the time to provide my kindergartner the services that were in the IEP? The principal who told me and the PEP team she knew we were used to my child being "coddled" like a "baby bird", but that he would be just fine in kindergarten? That one?

I lawyered up and it was miraculous what was suddenly possible. We ended up getting a private placement without ever having to file due process. No way that would have happened without the attorney and advocate. Not with that principal.

We're saying the same thing lol. The principal is the one to talk to and escalate situations with, not the teachers

No. We are not saying the same thing. You are saying “go to the principal”. If it wasn’t clear from what I wrote, it is the principals themselves in some cases that are denying children their legal rights. They do this because they will get away with it in the vast majority of cases.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these parents seem to want teachers to quit and then what? Probably sue the school districts even though it’s not their fault. The fault lies with a federal law that isn’t accompanied by money. There is no way for districts to meet what parents demand these days; the system is irrevocable broken.

OP here. I think my real point got lost in my lab frustration yesterday. But this is the real truth- all students will now be getting a lot less without these two teachers, and it’s not that easy to replace them (we already have one gen ed vacancy that we have been completely unable to fill). If you want us to leave and find a job where we are respected, then fine. We might. I am just so sick of being painted like the enemy when all I want is to help kids achieve.

Nobody wants teachers to quit. We do want you to follow the law.

Don't take it out on the teachers. Take it out on the system that doesn't provide anywhere close to the resources needed.

The only way to take it “ out on the system” is to pursue a child’s legal right to an education and file an ocr complaint or due process when those rights are infringed upon. Most parents don’t have that knowledge, but guess who does, advocates and attorneys. No one wants an adversarial relationship with a school/ principal/ teacher but when your child is denied an appropriate education bc they have a disability, parents are going to have feelings about that.

What the OP tried to explain, and I think has gone missing is that when you do the above, you are taking it out on the teacher. I am not a SPED teacher but work closely with that department at my school. We have 3 SPED teachers per our district budget for grades k-5. In 5th alone we have multiple students with 15+hrs per week of pull out service. In our 3rd grade we had 4 new students come in with IEPs, making that teachers caseload upwards of 15.
Now, you don't have to be a mathematician to understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE for 3 people to fulfill all those hours. This is a systemic issue.
When you are then calling for more meetings to rail at the system, you are taking those teachers away from the precious, finite hours they have to service their students.

I get it. IDEA is an unfunded mandate and absolutely needs to be revamped. However your rebelling against the machine is only hurting the people on the bottom level. You're not affecting real change, unless you consider the current teacher shortage

I disagree with you, we are no more taking it out of the teachers than teachers are taking it out on the kids by providing minimal services. The only way it is going to change is if it starts to cost districts more either monetarily or by public perception. The way you do that is hold them to standards and make them accountable for the standards.
It’s really frustrating to hear so many people, who I assume work in schools, basically state we should just be happy to receive something for our kids and not ask for too much. I’m fairly certain that wouldn’t be said to neurotypical children.

I promise you I'm not saying that. I'm saying that we are not the people in control of what you want. Stop calling meetings with us if you want to affect change. Meet with principals, district superintendents, people in central office in charge of SPED.

NP. You mean the principal who told me in the first IEP meeting (transitioning from PEP) that they didn't have the staff or the time to provide my kindergartner the services that were in the IEP? The principal who told me and the PEP team she knew we were used to my child being "coddled" like a "baby bird", but that he would be just fine in kindergarten? That one?

I lawyered up and it was miraculous what was suddenly possible. We ended up getting a private placement without ever having to file due process. No way that would have happened without the attorney and advocate. Not with that principal.

We're saying the same thing lol. The principal is the one to talk to and escalate situations with, not the teachers

No. We are not saying the same thing. You are saying “go to the principal”. If it wasn’t clear from what I wrote, it is the principals themselves in some cases that are denying children their legal rights. They do this because they will get away with it in the vast majority of cases.

Agreed, principals, district special Ed and the superintendent are the cause of the issues where I live. I don’t blame the teachers at all. But I absolutely show up with an advocate, record the meeting and have access to an attorney I trust. My child doesn’t have decades for systemic change to be enacted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these parents seem to want teachers to quit and then what? Probably sue the school districts even though it’s not their fault. The fault lies with a federal law that isn’t accompanied by money. There is no way for districts to meet what parents demand these days; the system is irrevocable broken.

OP here. I think my real point got lost in my lab frustration yesterday. But this is the real truth- all students will now be getting a lot less without these two teachers, and it’s not that easy to replace them (we already have one gen ed vacancy that we have been completely unable to fill). If you want us to leave and find a job where we are respected, then fine. We might. I am just so sick of being painted like the enemy when all I want is to help kids achieve.

Nobody wants teachers to quit. We do want you to follow the law.

Don't take it out on the teachers. Take it out on the system that doesn't provide anywhere close to the resources needed.

The only way to take it “ out on the system” is to pursue a child’s legal right to an education and file an ocr complaint or due process when those rights are infringed upon. Most parents don’t have that knowledge, but guess who does, advocates and attorneys. No one wants an adversarial relationship with a school/ principal/ teacher but when your child is denied an appropriate education bc they have a disability, parents are going to have feelings about that.

What the OP tried to explain, and I think has gone missing is that when you do the above, you are taking it out on the teacher. I am not a SPED teacher but work closely with that department at my school. We have 3 SPED teachers per our district budget for grades k-5. In 5th alone we have multiple students with 15+hrs per week of pull out service. In our 3rd grade we had 4 new students come in with IEPs, making that teachers caseload upwards of 15.
Now, you don't have to be a mathematician to understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE for 3 people to fulfill all those hours. This is a systemic issue.
When you are then calling for more meetings to rail at the system, you are taking those teachers away from the precious, finite hours they have to service their students.

I get it. IDEA is an unfunded mandate and absolutely needs to be revamped. However your rebelling against the machine is only hurting the people on the bottom level. You're not affecting real change, unless you consider the current teacher shortage

I disagree with you, we are no more taking it out of the teachers than teachers are taking it out on the kids by providing minimal services. The only way it is going to change is if it starts to cost districts more either monetarily or by public perception. The way you do that is hold them to standards and make them accountable for the standards.
It’s really frustrating to hear so many people, who I assume work in schools, basically state we should just be happy to receive something for our kids and not ask for too much. I’m fairly certain that wouldn’t be said to neurotypical children.

I promise you I'm not saying that. I'm saying that we are not the people in control of what you want. Stop calling meetings with us if you want to affect change. Meet with principals, district superintendents, people in central office in charge of SPED.

NP. You mean the principal who told me in the first IEP meeting (transitioning from PEP) that they didn't have the staff or the time to provide my kindergartner the services that were in the IEP? The principal who told me and the PEP team she knew we were used to my child being "coddled" like a "baby bird", but that he would be just fine in kindergarten? That one?

I lawyered up and it was miraculous what was suddenly possible. We ended up getting a private placement without ever having to file due process. No way that would have happened without the attorney and advocate. Not with that principal.

We're saying the same thing lol. The principal is the one to talk to and escalate situations with, not the teachers

No. We are not saying the same thing. You are saying “go to the principal”. If it wasn’t clear from what I wrote, it is the principals themselves in some cases that are denying children their legal rights. They do this because they will get away with it in the vast majority of cases.

In that case, I'm even less sure why you think it's helpful to take more time from teachers, who have even less power of these things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I totally get it and have been there. It's unbelievably stressful when you are subpoenaed over a student you've never met and have to spend multiple hours of your school day in IEP meetings being bullied by advocates and lawyers with tape recorders while you should be working with your actual students. Mind you that you then have to find time to makeup the service hours you missed while you sat in these awful meetings. Again for a student you've never met. It's an awful. Happened years ago and it's still painful to think about. These things really happen and the school provides very little support to the teachers/ staff when it does.

I’m a school psychologist who posted earlier on this thread. I had one meeting which caused me to call out sick the next day and contemplate quitting. I was accused of fabricating my results and “never actually meeting the child”. This was so patently untrue that it didn’t upset me. But later, the advocate turned to the parent after I fumbled over my words after being asked the same question ten ways and said “and THIS is why you got an outside evaluation”. They also mentioned that the child couldn’t have possibly opened up to me because “I have an unfriendly face”. It really, really hurt me. I have my PhD and could easily work outside of the school setting. But I chose to work in our school system because I really believed in it. I’m back at it and not letting advocates rattle me as much- but it was truly offensive and unprofessional. I also changed schools where admin would have my back more.

I can appreciate and sympathize with your feelings - I suspect most parents can since we have frequently discussed how we have to take the entire day off work when there's an IEP meeting because we're too wrung out from regulating our emotions in our personal life to attend to our professional responsibilities. Have you not seen the posts about how wretched we feel when we're unable to contain our tears at IEP meetings?

I'm the PP who said I am what FCPS has wrought. My youngest is now a senior in HS. When they were in ES, I had to file 2 state complaints and a civil rights complaint to get the 2 of my kids with IEPs appropriate support/services. Looking back, I did exactly what I needed to do. I was right. FCPS was wrong and had I allowed them to do what they proposed, my kids with IEPs would not have graduated with standard diplomas. My older DC would not have been able to choose to go to college. My younger DC with an IEP would have been in a low functioning classroom when he's capable of at least "average" achievement.

I recognize that my DCs are not as needy as some, are minorities and consume scarce resources. Your frustration should be directed at the school system and federal government for not providing sufficient resources not parents doing their best for their kids.

To the psychologist- I understand and have shared your experiences. I have only worked with one advocate who was professional, respectful, and worked towards a common goal. Every other advocate or private therapist expresses contempt, disgust, and disrespect. They do not respect the FCPS staff professional experience or opinion, nor are they familiar with special education law or services. Almost ALL families I have worked with who had an advocate were consumed with anger and denial, and lack of understanding or acceptance for federal law. There is no trust or respect to the school staff, even when the school is (SHOCKINGLY!!) good and doing the right thing. I'm sorry for the families who have had a bad experience, but I've only worked with great professionals who are making appropriate recommendations and following federal law. These upset families spread bad word and create a culture of distrust, "us" versus "them," and "fight" for your rights. It is unacceptable for advocates or families to demean FCPS staff. I have been cussed at, yelled at, and worse by families. But I have never seen an FCPS staff cuss or yell, give dirty looks, or blatantly insult a parent or advocate directly to their face. Double standard, no? I also have wasted hours in meetings listening to an advocate say the same thing over and over again for hours and refusing to hear or accept the other side.

To parents- as soon as you bring an advocate or request to record a meeting, you send a message to the staff that you do not trust them, you do not agree with their professional recommendations, you do not think they have the best interest of your child, and you intend to take legal action against them no matter what. The staff will not feel comfortable speaking to you via email or without an administrator present, and will not be likely to share the candid stories and details that we like to share...for fear of getting sued, reported to the DOE, or criticized so harshly. I am not saying that schools are not required to follow law or do their jobs. I am saying that in my experience, the staff is following the law and doing their jobs- you just do not like it, or are angry or in denial. Or you expect a public school system to operate in a way that is not logistically possible with the staff available. Don't say "get more staff." There is not more staff and they don't want to work for FCPS, primarily because families are never happy no matter what FCPS does. Parents can contact the FCPS special education ombudsman and the procedural support liaison for support- advocates aren't the only option to ensure processes are being followed appropriately.

To advocates- again I have worked with only one advocate who genuinely cared about the student and worked toward a positive outcome. Others have a personal agenda to make money, make a name for themselves, or use your case for a professional mission to advance their career. Advaocats can choose to be professional and collaborate and still advocate. You can show respect for other professionals, even if you disagree. You can use a professional voice, face, and words. It is not acceptable for advocates (or parents) to attack FCPS staff at meetings, even if there is disagreement.

I hope that families and staff can get to a point with some trust and respect.

oh ffs. I got an advocate because the school tried to deny an obviously necessary IEP; and then seemed to have no idea how to address behavioral issues. So forgive me if I think your screed misses the mark.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I totally get it and have been there. It's unbelievably stressful when you are subpoenaed over a student you've never met and have to spend multiple hours of your school day in IEP meetings being bullied by advocates and lawyers with tape recorders while you should be working with your actual students. Mind you that you then have to find time to makeup the service hours you missed while you sat in these awful meetings. Again for a student you've never met. It's an awful. Happened years ago and it's still painful to think about. These things really happen and the school provides very little support to the teachers/ staff when it does.

I’m a school psychologist who posted earlier on this thread. I had one meeting which caused me to call out sick the next day and contemplate quitting. I was accused of fabricating my results and “never actually meeting the child”. This was so patently untrue that it didn’t upset me. But later, the advocate turned to the parent after I fumbled over my words after being asked the same question ten ways and said “and THIS is why you got an outside evaluation”. They also mentioned that the child couldn’t have possibly opened up to me because “I have an unfriendly face”. It really, really hurt me. I have my PhD and could easily work outside of the school setting. But I chose to work in our school system because I really believed in it. I’m back at it and not letting advocates rattle me as much- but it was truly offensive and unprofessional. I also changed schools where admin would have my back more.

I can appreciate and sympathize with your feelings - I suspect most parents can since we have frequently discussed how we have to take the entire day off work when there's an IEP meeting because we're too wrung out from regulating our emotions in our personal life to attend to our professional responsibilities. Have you not seen the posts about how wretched we feel when we're unable to contain our tears at IEP meetings?

I'm the PP who said I am what FCPS has wrought. My youngest is now a senior in HS. When they were in ES, I had to file 2 state complaints and a civil rights complaint to get the 2 of my kids with IEPs appropriate support/services. Looking back, I did exactly what I needed to do. I was right. FCPS was wrong and had I on allowed them to do what they proposed, my kids with IEPs would not have graduated with standard diplomas. My older DC would not have been able to choose to go to college. My younger DC with an IEP would have been in a low functioning classroom when he's capable of at least "average" achievement.

I recognize that my DCs are not as needy as some, are minorities and consume scarce resources. Your frustration should be directed at the school system and federal government for not providing sufficient resources not parents doing their best for their kids.

To the psychologist- I understand and have shared your experiences. I have only worked with one advocate who was professional, respectful, and worked towards a common goal. Every other advocate or private therapist expresses contempt, disgust, and disrespect. They do not respect the FCPS staff professional experience or opinion, nor are they familiar with special education law or services. Almost ALL families I have worked with who had an advocate were consumed with anger and denial, and lack of understanding or acceptance for federal law. There is no trust or respect to the school staff, even when the school is (SHOCKINGLY!!) good and doing the right thing. I'm sorry for the families who have had a bad experience, but I've only worked with great professionals who are making appropriate recommendations and following federal law. These upset families spread bad word and create a culture of distrust, "us" versus "them," and "fight" for your rights. It is unacceptable for advocates or families to demean FCPS staff. I have been cussed at, yelled at, and worse by families. But I have never seen an FCPS staff cuss or yell, give dirty looks, or blatantly insult a parent or advocate directly to their face. Double standard, no? I also have wasted hours in meetings listening to an advocate say the same thing over and over again for hours and refusing to hear or accept the other side.

To parents- as soon as you bring an advocate or request to record a meeting, you send a message to the staff that you do not trust them, you do not agree with their professional recommendations, you do not think they have the best interest of your child, and you intend to take legal action against them no matter what. The staff will not feel comfortable speaking to you via email or without an administrator present, and will not be likely to share the candid stories and details that we like to share...for fear of getting sued, reported to the DOE, or criticized so harshly. I am not saying that schools are not required to follow law or do their jobs. I am saying that in my experience, the staff is following the law and doing their jobs- you just do not like it, or are angry or in denial. Or you expect a public school system to operate in a way that is not logistically possible with the staff available. Don't say "get more staff." There is not more staff and they don't want to work for FCPS, primarily because families are never happy no matter what FCPS does. Parents can contact the FCPS special education ombudsman and the procedural support liaison for support- advocates aren't the only option to ensure processes are being followed appropriately.

To advocates- again I have worked with only one advocate who genuinely cared about the student and worked toward a positive outcome. Others have a personal agenda to make money, make a name for themselves, or use your case for a professional mission to advance their career. Advaocats can choose to be professional and collaborate and still advocate. You can show respect for other professionals, even if you disagree. You can use a professional voice, face, and words. It is not acceptable for advocates (or parents) to attack FCPS staff at meetings, even if there is disagreement.

I hope that families and staff can get to a point with some trust and respect.

And this is why, ladies and gentlemen, the FCPS had the Office of Civil Rights from DoE crack down on them. But PP has learned nothing. Requesting second IEP meeting is now hostile and antagonizes staff? Go fly a kite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I totally get it and have been there. It's unbelievably stressful when you are subpoenaed over a student you've never met and have to spend multiple hours of your school day in IEP meetings being bullied by advocates and lawyers with tape recorders while you should be working with your actual students. Mind you that you then have to find time to makeup the service hours you missed while you sat in these awful meetings. Again for a student you've never met. It's an awful. Happened years ago and it's still painful to think about. These things really happen and the school provides very little support to the teachers/ staff when it does.

I’m a school psychologist who posted earlier on this thread. I had one meeting which caused me to call out sick the next day and contemplate quitting. I was accused of fabricating my results and “never actually meeting the child”. This was so patently untrue that it didn’t upset me. But later, the advocate turned to the parent after I fumbled over my words after being asked the same question ten ways and said “and THIS is why you got an outside evaluation”. They also mentioned that the child couldn’t have possibly opened up to me because “I have an unfriendly face”. It really, really hurt me. I have my PhD and could easily work outside of the school setting. But I chose to work in our school system because I really believed in it. I’m back at it and not letting advocates rattle me as much- but it was truly offensive and unprofessional. I also changed schools where admin would have my back more.

I can appreciate and sympathize with your feelings - I suspect most parents can since we have frequently discussed how we have to take the entire day off work when there's an IEP meeting because we're too wrung out from regulating our emotions in our personal life to attend to our professional responsibilities. Have you not seen the posts about how wretched we feel when we're unable to contain our tears at IEP meetings?

I'm the PP who said I am what FCPS has wrought. My youngest is now a senior in HS. When they were in ES, I had to file 2 state complaints and a civil rights complaint to get the 2 of my kids with IEPs appropriate support/services. Looking back, I did exactly what I needed to do. I was right. FCPS was wrong and had I allowed them to do what they proposed, my kids with IEPs would not have graduated with standard diplomas. My older DC would not have been able to choose to go to college. My younger DC with an IEP would have been in a low functioning classroom when he's capable of at least "average" achievement.

I recognize that my DCs are not as needy as some, are minorities and consume scarce resources. Your frustration should be directed at the school system and federal government for not providing sufficient resources not parents doing their best for their kids.

To the psychologist- I understand and have shared your experiences. I have only worked with one advocate who was professional, respectful, and worked towards a common goal. Every other advocate or private therapist expresses contempt, disgust, and disrespect. They do not respect the FCPS staff professional experience or opinion, nor are they familiar with special education law or services. Almost ALL families I have worked with who had an advocate were consumed with anger and denial, and lack of understanding or acceptance for federal law. There is no trust or respect to the school staff, even when the school is (SHOCKINGLY!!) good and doing the right thing. I'm sorry for the families who have had a bad experience, but I've only worked with great professionals who are making appropriate recommendations and following federal law. These upset families spread bad word and create a culture of distrust, "us" versus "them," and "fight" for your rights. It is unacceptable for advocates or families to demean FCPS staff. I have been cussed at, yelled at, and worse by families. But I have never seen an FCPS staff cuss or yell, give dirty looks, or blatantly insult a parent or advocate directly to their face. Double standard, no? I also have wasted hours in meetings listening to an advocate say the same thing over and over again for hours and refusing to hear or accept the other side.

To parents- as soon as you bring an advocate or request to record a meeting, you send a message to the staff that you do not trust them, you do not agree with their professional recommendations, you do not think they have the best interest of your child, and you intend to take legal action against them no matter what. The staff will not feel comfortable speaking to you via email or without an administrator present, and will not be likely to share the candid stories and details that we like to share...for fear of getting sued, reported to the DOE, or criticized so harshly. I am not saying that schools are not required to follow law or do their jobs. I am saying that in my experience, the staff is following the law and doing their jobs- you just do not like it, or are angry or in denial. Or you expect a public school system to operate in a way that is not logistically possible with the staff available. Don't say "get more staff." There is not more staff and they don't want to work for FCPS, primarily because families are never happy no matter what FCPS does. Parents can contact the FCPS special education ombudsman and the procedural support liaison for support- advocates aren't the only option to ensure processes are being followed appropriately.

To advocates- again I have worked with only one advocate who genuinely cared about the student and worked toward a positive outcome. Others have a personal agenda to make money, make a name for themselves, or use your case for a professional mission to advance their career. Advaocats can choose to be professional and collaborate and still advocate. You can show respect for other professionals, even if you disagree. You can use a professional voice, face, and words. It is not acceptable for advocates (or parents) to attack FCPS staff at meetings, even if there is disagreement.

I hope that families and staff can get to a point with some trust and respect.

I'm the PP you're responding to. The one that FCPS has created. I didn't start out with an advocate. I felt compelled to get one because I quickly realized that FCPS didn't give a shlt about my DS1 and was content to let him fall futher and further behind. This was after I provided them with 2 private evaluations documenting learning disabilities and speech/language delays. My DS2 has a language/communication disorder that was diagnosed when he was 2. Until he was in 4th grade, he was LEP - he wasn't proficient in any language. Yet, despite him being in EI since he was 15 months and in an FCPS special ed preschool (with an IEP) by age 3, I couldn't get speech services for him until I brought my advocate. At the first meeting she attended, she was able to document that despite the teacher indicating he mastered his goals, he had not (anyone who spent any time with him would have been able to see that). The teacher actually said she thought he HAD to master his goals so despite her own classroom notes indicating he could not do what was in the goal, she STILL indicated he'd mastered it. A few years later, I had the special ed chair look me in the eye and tell me that while they reviewed the IEE, they disagreed with it because they were teachers, the evaluators were not and they knew my DS2 better than the evaluators did. That was when I filed my first state complaint because an impartial 3rd party would find it egregious what they were trying to do. FCPS caved, gave us everything we asked and I dropped it.

I don't give a r@t's ass what the staff thing of me when I come with my advocate. If they had any kind of professionalism, they'd recognize that I am compelled to do so because I know they can't offer what my kids need, that I recognize 'the system' grinds them down as much as it does me but I have to prioritize my kids' needs over them. If they staff had any kind of professionalism, they would, as we all have to, leave their emotions and egos at the door and perform in a civil, logical, data driven manner. I can't tell you the times I've been dismissed as 'the parent' and told I 'believe I can predict the future' because I can plot data points to predict a trajectory.

When you work in a system that has SHOCKINGLY demonstrated they are unwilling to do what's right, don't be suprised that parents are untrusting. Believe you me, we know who pays your salary. We know that what you think really doesn't matter to the school system. There's a formula for resources and those resources are scarce. That's not going to stop be from advocating for my kid. Maybe you should push your teachers union to advocate for the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these parents seem to want teachers to quit and then what? Probably sue the school districts even though it’s not their fault. The fault lies with a federal law that isn’t accompanied by money. There is no way for districts to meet what parents demand these days; the system is irrevocable broken.

OP here. I think my real point got lost in my lab frustration yesterday. But this is the real truth- all students will now be getting a lot less without these two teachers, and it’s not that easy to replace them (we already have one gen ed vacancy that we have been completely unable to fill). If you want us to leave and find a job where we are respected, then fine. We might. I am just so sick of being painted like the enemy when all I want is to help kids achieve.

Nobody wants teachers to quit. We do want you to follow the law.

Don't take it out on the teachers. Take it out on the system that doesn't provide anywhere close to the resources needed.

The only way to take it “ out on the system” is to pursue a child’s legal right to an education and file an ocr complaint or due process when those rights are infringed upon. Most parents don’t have that knowledge, but guess who does, advocates and attorneys. No one wants an adversarial relationship with a school/ principal/ teacher but when your child is denied an appropriate education bc they have a disability, parents are going to have feelings about that.

What the OP tried to explain, and I think has gone missing is that when you do the above, you are taking it out on the teacher. I am not a SPED teacher but work closely with that department at my school. We have 3 SPED teachers per our district budget for grades k-5. In 5th alone we have multiple students with 15+hrs per week of pull out service. In our 3rd grade we had 4 new students come in with IEPs, making that teachers caseload upwards of 15.
Now, you don't have to be a mathematician to understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE for 3 people to fulfill all those hours. This is a systemic issue.
When you are then calling for more meetings to rail at the system, you are taking those teachers away from the precious, finite hours they have to service their students.

I get it. IDEA is an unfunded mandate and absolutely needs to be revamped. However your rebelling against the machine is only hurting the people on the bottom level. You're not affecting real change, unless you consider the current teacher shortage

I disagree with you, we are no more taking it out of the teachers than teachers are taking it out on the kids by providing minimal services. The only way it is going to change is if it starts to cost districts more either monetarily or by public perception. The way you do that is hold them to standards and make them accountable for the standards.
It’s really frustrating to hear so many people, who I assume work in schools, basically state we should just be happy to receive something for our kids and not ask for too much. I’m fairly certain that wouldn’t be said to neurotypical children.

I promise you I'm not saying that. I'm saying that we are not the people in control of what you want. Stop calling meetings with us if you want to affect change. Meet with principals, district superintendents, people in central office in charge of SPED.

NP. You mean the principal who told me in the first IEP meeting (transitioning from PEP) that they didn't have the staff or the time to provide my kindergartner the services that were in the IEP? The principal who told me and the PEP team she knew we were used to my child being "coddled" like a "baby bird", but that he would be just fine in kindergarten? That one?

I lawyered up and it was miraculous what was suddenly possible. We ended up getting a private placement without ever having to file due process. No way that would have happened without the attorney and advocate. Not with that principal.

We're saying the same thing lol. The principal is the one to talk to and escalate situations with, not the teachers

No. We are not saying the same thing. You are saying “go to the principal”. If it wasn’t clear from what I wrote, it is the principals themselves in some cases that are denying children their legal rights. They do this because they will get away with it in the vast majority of cases.

In that case, I'm even less sure why you think it's helpful to take more time from teachers, who have even less power of these things.

You are all accountable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know that many of you have had negative experiences, and I’m truly sorry about that. As a special education teacher, I have had some students with advocates that were ridiculous. We had multiple meetings where the advocate wanted to argue over every word. It should not take four meetings to finalize an IEP, especially when the school and parent were in agreement. I’ve worked with several advocates who got into the field because of their own child’s needs, and they seemed to think that every child needed what their kid did.

Some advocates have been professional and reasonable, and if you need one, I hope you get one of those.

My advocate had a reputation as being adversarial but that was false. She was always professional and respectful in IEP meetings. Guess who wasn't respectful and professional in our IEP meetings. Yep, the teachers and administrators. Words in the IEP did matter and one year we had more than a dozen IEP meetings. It wasn't because of unreasonable parents or a ridiculous advocate. Because my kid didn't get services for almost 5 months one year, I complained and my kid and others got compensatory time. After that the IEP team decided to remove basic no cost accommodations from my kids IEP not because there was anything to indicate kid didn't need them. It was 100 % retaliation. They thought if we kept having IEP meetings, I wouldn't be able to keep paying my advocate. The lies and ridiculous unprofessional behavior I saw in our IEP meetings that year would shock every one of you. They also bullied my kid with and refused to follow the IEP most of the year. There are lots of schools where there is no reason. My kids hs refused to follow kid's IEP freshman year and ignored meetings and deadlines. They weren't short staffed. They just were ignorant about the laws.