How would you rank NESCACS academically?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:only kids in DCUM who care about these schools are the athletes who aren’t good enough to be recruited by ivy league schools. Nescacs full of ivy reject athletes. Leads to weird dynamics on campus when 1/3 are athletes

NESCACs have pretty high academic standards for athletes. that's kind of the philosophy of the conference. Some schools there's a larger divide depending on culture of the school Wes I imagine pretty pronounced where Colby not so much. I think it varies school to school but many athletes could get admitted w/out their sport.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW

Student to faculty ratio at Harvard is 5:1.

Student to faculty ratio at Pomona College is 7:1.

However, Pomona College has very few classes with 50 or more students, while 10% of the classes at Harvard have 50 or more students (usually intro classes).

Pomona College professors are committed to undergraduate teaching; many Harvard professors are not. Their focus is research, obviously, and training graduate students to be their mini-me's. A class of 50 is still quite large, and most are taught by TAs. It will be tough to get to know professors unless the class enrollment is 25 or less. Harvard professors have a 2-2 teaching load, max, usually one graduate course and one upper-level undergraduate course (which often includes graduate students) per semester. For STEM there are still huge weed-out classes graded on a curve. It is generally competitive rather than collaborative. The undergraduate experiences are very different. Obviously kid-dependent as far as which would be the better environment to thrive.

Would be interested in any proof or evidence of undergraduate classes being taught by grad students at Harvard (not referring to break-out sessions).

Yes, I agree that the experiences are different.

Parchment preference:

Harvard 74% v. Pomona 26% (which is surprising to me).

Harvard 88% v. Williams College 12%

Harvard 87% v. Amherst College 13%

Harvard 72% v. Swarthmore College 28%

Harvard 75% v. Bowdoin College 25%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW

Student to faculty ratio at Harvard is 5:1.

Student to faculty ratio at Pomona College is 7:1.

However, Pomona College has very few classes with 50 or more students, while 10% of the classes at Harvard have 50 or more students (usually intro classes).

Pomona College professors are committed to undergraduate teaching; many Harvard professors are not. Their focus is research, obviously, and training graduate students to be their mini-me's. A class of 50 is still quite large, and most are taught by TAs. It will be tough to get to know professors unless the class enrollment is 25 or less. Harvard professors have a 2-2 teaching load, max, usually one graduate course and one upper-level undergraduate course (which often includes graduate students) per semester. For STEM there are still huge weed-out classes graded on a curve. It is generally competitive rather than collaborative. The undergraduate experiences are very different. Obviously kid-dependent as far as which would be the better environment to thrive.

Would be interested in any proof or evidence of undergraduate classes being taught by grad students at Harvard (not referring to break-out sessions).

Yes, I agree that the experiences are different.

Parchment preference:

Harvard 74% v. Pomona 26% (which is surprising to me).

Harvard 88% v. Williams College 12%

Harvard 87% v. Amherst College 13%

Harvard 72% v. Swarthmore College 28%

Harvard 75% v. Bowdoin College 25%.

I'm not at all surprised by these numbers. Most apply to Harvard because of its name, don't really care what the experience is like in terms of teaching, social experience etc. For those looking for dedicated undergraduate teaching and a smaller campus experience, unsurprising that Pomona, Swarthmore, and Bowdoin are standouts for those who visited.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do these LACs compare to national universities? Is Williams HYPSM level? Are Bowdoin and Middlebury comperable to Duke and Northwestern? Or are they lower

In what way do you want to compare them? Lots of professors send their kids to LACs because they feel like they'll get a better educational experience than at a larger university.

This. I went to Harvard UG and regret (wish I had gone to Pomona). Although the name opened doors, I was far less well prepared for grad school than my LAC peers. Both my kids will attend LACs for UG, can apply to Ivies for grad if they want.

Not sure that this post is genuine. Seems like made-up BS to me.

It is absolutely genuine. Most of my Harvard classes were huge, in which I only interacted with TAs, until the final two years. Even then, professor interaction and feedback was negligible--most of them only cared about their graduate students. That is not the UG experience I want for my kids.

Must have been a few decades ago that you attended Harvard.

Lol, so Harvard has completely changed its approach to education in the past 20-30 years?

NP. It really depends on the department. I was in a small department and in seminars starting my first year. Also, I was extremely well-prepared for graduate school, probably the most prepared in my PhD cohort, which as made up of kids from other Ivies, some SLACs, California schools, some international schools... those are the first that come to mind.

Also, I can't think of any 50-person class taught by a grad student. I'd be very surprised if this were true. Besides being teaching assistants, grad students taught most of the required languages classes (10-12 students). Sometimes an ABD would apply to teach an expository writing class or something along those lines.

It is true that many Harvard profs don't particularly care about teaching-though there are also incredible lecturers and teachers in general-but there is no need to make stuff up.

All that said, personally I, too, am steering my oldest toward a NESCAC school. The competitive atmosphere at Harvard is stimulating and energizing for lots of people. I liked it and a lot of my peers loved it, but I think it won't bring out the best in my kid. Also, I think NESCACs make a lot of things easier for students, they are just generally warmer and more supportive.

[Anonymous]

FYI, I get this SAT Score info from https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator

College 25% 75%

Amherst 1370 1550
pomona 1470 1570
middlebury 1380 1530
hamilton 1410 1540
wellesley 1400 1540
wesleyan 1300 1510
colby 1400 1530
colgate 1350 1500
vassar 1420 1540
swarthmore 1430 1560
grinnell 1370 1530
carleton 1408 1550
kenyon 1340 1500
oberlin 1330 1460
Conn.C 1333 1476

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:FYI, I get this SAT Score info from https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator

College 25% 75%

Amherst 1370 1550
pomona 1470 1570
middlebury 1380 1530
hamilton 1410 1540
wellesley 1400 1540
wesleyan 1300 1510
colby 1400 1530
colgate 1350 1500
vassar 1420 1540
swarthmore 1430 1560
grinnell 1370 1530
carleton 1408 1550
kenyon 1340 1500
oberlin 1330 1460
Conn.C 1333 1476

If this is for a recent year (after 2019), it's tricky comparing these scores b/c I think all these schools went test optional and there can be quite a difference in the fraction of students who submit scores across schools. These won't be the scores for all students enrolled, which is what one would like to have.

Also, I *think* the NCES SAT data is for admitted students rather than enrolled students. The scores for admitted students can be quite a bit higher than for the students who end up enrolling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:FWIW

Student to faculty ratio at Harvard is 5:1.

Student to faculty ratio at Pomona College is 7:1.

However, Pomona College has very few classes with 50 or more students, while 10% of the classes at Harvard have 50 or more students (usually intro classes).

Keep in mind that Harvard faculty, at least the tenure-line faculty, are probably teaching 1-2 courses per year, whereas Pomona tenure-line faculty are probably teaching 4 courses per year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:tier 1: amherst middlebury williams
tier 2: bowdoin, hamilton, tufts
tier 3: bates, wesleyan
tier 4: colby, trinity
tier 5: conn college

Uh no. Colby is at least in tier 3. It has, what, 10% admit rate vs. 34% Trinity? Trinity is on par with Conn College, both solid schools.

Very odd to put Bates ahead of Colby or even equate them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI, I get this SAT Score info from https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator

College 25% 75%

Amherst 1370 1550
pomona 1470 1570
middlebury 1380 1530
hamilton 1410 1540
wellesley 1400 1540
wesleyan 1300 1510
colby 1400 1530
colgate 1350 1500
vassar 1420 1540
swarthmore 1430 1560
grinnell 1370 1530
carleton 1408 1550
kenyon 1340 1500
oberlin 1330 1460
Conn.C 1333 1476

If this is for a recent year (after 2019), it's tricky comparing these scores b/c I think all these schools went test optional and there can be quite a difference in the fraction of students who submit scores across schools. These won't be the scores for all students enrolled, which is what one would like to have.

Also, I *think* the NCES SAT data is for admitted students rather than enrolled students. The scores for admitted students can be quite a bit higher than for the students who end up enrolling.

Wesleyan surprisingly low at 25 percentile

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI, I get this SAT Score info from https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator

College 25% 75%

Amherst 1370 1550
pomona 1470 1570
middlebury 1380 1530
hamilton 1410 1540
wellesley 1400 1540
wesleyan 1300 1510
colby 1400 1530
colgate 1350 1500
vassar 1420 1540
swarthmore 1430 1560
grinnell 1370 1530
carleton 1408 1550
kenyon 1340 1500
oberlin 1330 1460
Conn.C 1333 1476

If this is for a recent year (after 2019), it's tricky comparing these scores b/c I think all these schools went test optional and there can be quite a difference in the fraction of students who submit scores across schools. These won't be the scores for all students enrolled, which is what one would like to have.

Also, I *think* the NCES SAT data is for admitted students rather than enrolled students. The scores for admitted students can be quite a bit higher than for the students who end up enrolling.

I'm surprised at how much higher Carleton and Grinnell are than Oberlin. I've known some super-smart kids who went to Oberlin and thought those schools were all on par.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI, I get this SAT Score info from https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator

College 25% 75%

Amherst 1370 1550
pomona 1470 1570
middlebury 1380 1530
hamilton 1410 1540
wellesley 1400 1540
wesleyan 1300 1510
colby 1400 1530
colgate 1350 1500
vassar 1420 1540
swarthmore 1430 1560
grinnell 1370 1530
carleton 1408 1550
kenyon 1340 1500
oberlin 1330 1460
Conn.C 1333 1476

If this is for a recent year (after 2019), it's tricky comparing these scores b/c I think all these schools went test optional and there can be quite a difference in the fraction of students who submit scores across schools. These won't be the scores for all students enrolled, which is what one would like to have.

Also, I *think* the NCES SAT data is for admitted students rather than enrolled students. The scores for admitted students can be quite a bit higher than for the students who end up enrolling.

I'm surprised at how much higher Carleton and Grinnell are than Oberlin. I've known some super-smart kids who went to Oberlin and thought those schools were all on par.

Oberlin is ranked 39th in US News. Carleton 6, Grinnell 15. Oberlin was a fine academic institution at some point and perhaps retains many of its original qualities, including in the sciences, but the campus culture has gotten away from them and turns off a lot of strong applicants. So quality has slipped. Oberlin has a decent endowment though and still fights for smart kids with merit money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW

Student to faculty ratio at Harvard is 5:1.

Student to faculty ratio at Pomona College is 7:1.

However, Pomona College has very few classes with 50 or more students, while 10% of the classes at Harvard have 50 or more students (usually intro classes).

Pomona College professors are committed to undergraduate teaching; many Harvard professors are not. Their focus is research, obviously, and training graduate students to be their mini-me's. A class of 50 is still quite large, and most are taught by TAs. It will be tough to get to know professors unless the class enrollment is 25 or less. Harvard professors have a 2-2 teaching load, max, usually one graduate course and one upper-level undergraduate course (which often includes graduate students) per semester. For STEM there are still huge weed-out classes graded on a curve. It is generally competitive rather than collaborative. The undergraduate experiences are very different. Obviously kid-dependent as far as which would be the better environment to thrive.

Would be interested in any proof or evidence of undergraduate classes being taught by grad students at Harvard (not referring to break-out sessions).

Yes, I agree that the experiences are different.

Parchment preference:

Harvard 74% v. Pomona 26% (which is surprising to me).

Harvard 88% v. Williams College 12%

Harvard 87% v. Amherst College 13%

Harvard 72% v. Swarthmore College 28%

Harvard 75% v. Bowdoin College 25%.

NP--According to their CDS, 97% of Pomona's profs have a PhD or other terminal degree vs 91% at Harvard. Those who don't probably include quite a few grad students who are on their way to the degree but don't yet have it. This probably at least partly accounts for Pomona giving their profs a 94 rating in Princeton Review vs. 78 for Harvard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI, I get this SAT Score info from https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator

College 25% 75%

Amherst 1370 1550
pomona 1470 1570
middlebury 1380 1530
hamilton 1410 1540
wellesley 1400 1540
wesleyan 1300 1510
colby 1400 1530
colgate 1350 1500
vassar 1420 1540
swarthmore 1430 1560
grinnell 1370 1530
carleton 1408 1550
kenyon 1340 1500
oberlin 1330 1460
Conn.C 1333 1476

If this is for a recent year (after 2019), it's tricky comparing these scores b/c I think all these schools went test optional and there can be quite a difference in the fraction of students who submit scores across schools. These won't be the scores for all students enrolled, which is what one would like to have.

Also, I *think* the NCES SAT data is for admitted students rather than enrolled students. The scores for admitted students can be quite a bit higher than for the students who end up enrolling.

This is for 2021 Fall enrolled admission. It is from the government site, so it should be reliable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hamilton is the SLAC version of Lehigh -

We have a comedian on the forum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW

Student to faculty ratio at Harvard is 5:1.

Student to faculty ratio at Pomona College is 7:1.

However, Pomona College has very few classes with 50 or more students, while 10% of the classes at Harvard have 50 or more students (usually intro classes).

Pomona College professors are committed to undergraduate teaching; many Harvard professors are not. Their focus is research, obviously, and training graduate students to be their mini-me's. A class of 50 is still quite large, and most are taught by TAs. It will be tough to get to know professors unless the class enrollment is 25 or less. Harvard professors have a 2-2 teaching load, max, usually one graduate course and one upper-level undergraduate course (which often includes graduate students) per semester. For STEM there are still huge weed-out classes graded on a curve. It is generally competitive rather than collaborative. The undergraduate experiences are very different. Obviously kid-dependent as far as which would be the better environment to thrive.

Would be interested in any proof or evidence of undergraduate classes being taught by grad students at Harvard (not referring to break-out sessions).

Yes, I agree that the experiences are different.

Parchment preference:

Harvard 74% v. Pomona 26% (which is surprising to me).

Harvard 88% v. Williams College 12%

Harvard 87% v. Amherst College 13%

Harvard 72% v. Swarthmore College 28%

Harvard 75% v. Bowdoin College 25%.

SLACs actually do comparatively better versus Harvard. For comparison, in Parchment versus Harvard, Dartmouth is 7%, Cornell is 8%, Brown 11%, Columbia 16%, Penn is 19%, and Duke is 24%.
People often choose SLACs because they want a different experience.