Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Self-confident women don’t want “traditionalism”. That’s a mechanism to control women.

I have a “traditional” marriage there is nothing controlling about it. It was my choice. I have a very good life;

Your poor kids.

Why my poor kids?

Reinforced stereotypes & lack of role models.

How is this reinforcing stereotypes? I like being there/picking kids when kids up from school. I like entertaining/hosting/cooking. I enjoy spoiling my husband and he enjoys spoiling me, we have fun and have a great marriage.

Why I am I not role model? I was successful very young, DH is successful, there is no need for both of us to work. Prioritizing, my family time and doing things I enjoy has improved my mental health dramatically. I am not lazy and sitting around all day watching TV, drinking wine, eating cake.

We are specs in a huge universe, outside of very small group of people no one is gong to remember what we did in our careers or care what we accomplished. And in 1000 years even the legacy of current presidents will be mostly unknown.
Having a career outside of the home doesn’t make you a role model. Being a kind, empathetic and well rounded person is the type of role model I fell that I am.

Your kids are learning that women take care of the kids/home/cooking and men work and “spoil” their families. They don’t see you as an independent, successful person. You are an accessory to your DH.

You are happy with your choices, but you are reinforcing stereotypes and not providing a role model of a strong, independent woman.

Do you think an income separate from your husbands is the only thing that makes you independent. How am I not successful, is have it a job outside of the home the only thing that makes someone successful?

I am no one’s “accessory”. And if you read what I wrote; I said we spoil each other in different ways, I didn’t say what those way were, so stop jumping to conclusions.

You have a very narrow minded view of what can take place in a loving, respectful marriage where roles were disused and expectations were mutual agreed upon. We communicated all of this openly.

Traditional roles that reinforce the gender stereotypes.

You’d be independent if you had your own life with significant responsibilities/achievements outside of the home. But you’ve limited your role to inside your home.

What is with all of the assumptions? What significant responsibilities do you have that I don't? You have no idea what my achievements are. My role is not limited to inside the house, I handle a lot of the day to day stuff, but I am not chained to the house by any means.

Who does the cooking, cleaning, laundry, doctor appts, etc?

Your kids see what they see. “Traditional roles” just reinforce gender stereotypes.

You are triggered by gender stereotypes. They work out well for many people.

Yup. Some people very much like overt displays of stereotypical femininity or masculinity.

Gross.

I didn't make the rules. All I know is that girls weren't chasing after the sensitive boys in school. Some of them changed their tune when they grew up and were looking for someone with resources. But back when it was all about attraction, they were writing the names of the bigger, stronger, faster, more masculine guys in their notebooks.

So you knew some airheads. They don’t define “the rules”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Having traditional gender roles perpetuates the stereotypes.

Period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Having traditional gender roles perpetuates the stereotypes.

Period.

Found the nosy busybody in everyone else's relationships!

Seek help. Period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

No. You can find deep, meaningful relationships with others if you don’t define yourself - or your relationships - by a ”traditional” gender stereotype. Sad that you think the only path to happiness is via handmaiden tale.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to constantly sh*t on other women's choices, especially if these women are content, as you suggest. Why make someone else's relationship dynamics a part of your battleground? Constantly. It doesn't add up.

The whole battleground thing doesn't sound very fun or pleasant, but I guess that's life. Adjust accordingly. The bolded is a pretty interesting theory and I can definitely see a case for it, but it's also kind of sad b/c it sounds like of alienating. For everyone.

Re contentment: How does that square with the rise of anti-depressant use (women moreso than men) and the absolute and relative declines in self-reported happiness from women. Is it the case that the DCUM demo is more professionally successful and upwardly mobile, so they are not succumbing to these trends as much? There is a certain classed tenor to a statement like "men are irrelevant" that I don't think travels quite as well outside of fora like these.

You raise some interesting thoughts. I'll look into the attachment theories more.

If you’re happy in “traditional roles”, you’re happy.

But don’t pretend like you aren’t perpetuating gender stereotypes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's impossible to get away from our biology. Come to terms with it.

Biology only comes into play for very few aspects of “traditional roles”. Who is going to carry a fetus? Sure. Who is going to feed an infant? Ok.

But what does having a vagina have to do with cooking or cleaning?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Having traditional gender roles perpetuates the stereotypes.

Period.

Found the nosy busybody in everyone else's relationships!

Seek help. Period.

We are discussing gender roles and relationships. If you’re not comfortable discussing those things then maybe this isn’t the thread for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's impossible to get away from our biology. Come to terms with it.

Biology only comes into play for very few aspects of “traditional roles”. Who is going to carry a fetus? Sure. Who is going to feed an infant? Ok.

But what does having a vagina have to do with cooking or cleaning?

You are home with the child so in the same place and the child needs to eat. That's what.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to constantly sh*t on other women's choices, especially if these women are content, as you suggest. Why make someone else's relationship dynamics a part of your battleground? Constantly. It doesn't add up.

The whole battleground thing doesn't sound very fun or pleasant, but I guess that's life. Adjust accordingly. The bolded is a pretty interesting theory and I can definitely see a case for it, but it's also kind of sad b/c it sounds like of alienating. For everyone.

Re contentment: How does that square with the rise of anti-depressant use (women moreso than men) and the absolute and relative declines in self-reported happiness from women. Is it the case that the DCUM demo is more professionally successful and upwardly mobile, so they are not succumbing to these trends as much? There is a certain classed tenor to a statement like "men are irrelevant" that I don't think travels quite as well outside of fora like these.

You raise some interesting thoughts. I'll look into the attachment theories more.

If you’re happy in “traditional roles”, you’re happy.

But don’t pretend like you aren’t perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Would you say the same to women that expect me to pay on first dates, act chivalrous (benevolent sexism grounded in assumption about women), sign up for the draft, perform the more dangerous jobs, "fix stuff" around the house, not cry too much, etc? Many women hold these expectations and it is part of the same dynamic that reinforces female gender stereotypes.

One way deconstruction of gender stereotypes breeds a lot of resentment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Having traditional gender roles perpetuates the stereotypes.

Period.

Found the nosy busybody in everyone else's relationships!

Seek help. Period.

We are discussing gender roles and relationships. If you’re not comfortable discussing those things then maybe this isn’t the thread for you.

Some people are discussing. You are pronouncing and trying to shame women into agreeing with your worldview. Classy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's impossible to get away from our biology. Come to terms with it.

Biology only comes into play for very few aspects of “traditional roles”. Who is going to carry a fetus? Sure. Who is going to feed an infant? Ok.

But what does having a vagina have to do with cooking or cleaning?

You are home with the child so in the same place and the child needs to eat. That's what.

For those women who do provide breastmilk, it is only for a limited period of time.

Many women pump or can’t/don’t BF. You don’t need boobs to feed an infant.

“Traditional roles” go way beyond how infants are fed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Having traditional gender roles perpetuates the stereotypes.

Period.

Found the nosy busybody in everyone else's relationships!

Seek help. Period.

We are discussing gender roles and relationships. If you’re not comfortable discussing those things then maybe this isn’t the thread for you.

Some people are discussing. You are pronouncing and trying to shame women into agreeing with your worldview. Classy.

How exactly does having traditional gender roles NOT perpetuate the stereotypes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to constantly sh*t on other women's choices, especially if these women are content, as you suggest. Why make someone else's relationship dynamics a part of your battleground? Constantly. It doesn't add up.

The whole battleground thing doesn't sound very fun or pleasant, but I guess that's life. Adjust accordingly. The bolded is a pretty interesting theory and I can definitely see a case for it, but it's also kind of sad b/c it sounds like of alienating. For everyone.

Re contentment: How does that square with the rise of anti-depressant use (women moreso than men) and the absolute and relative declines in self-reported happiness from women. Is it the case that the DCUM demo is more professionally successful and upwardly mobile, so they are not succumbing to these trends as much? There is a certain classed tenor to a statement like "men are irrelevant" that I don't think travels quite as well outside of fora like these.

You raise some interesting thoughts. I'll look into the attachment theories more.

If you’re happy in “traditional roles”, you’re happy.

But don’t pretend like you aren’t perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Would you say the same to women that expect me to pay on first dates, act chivalrous (benevolent sexism grounded in assumption about women), sign up for the draft, perform the more dangerous jobs, "fix stuff" around the house, not cry too much, etc? Many women hold these expectations and it is part of the same dynamic that reinforces female gender stereotypes.

One way deconstruction of gender stereotypes breeds a lot of resentment.

Those women would also be perpetuating stereotypes. Absolutely.