Question about the homophobia thread

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jeff, I realize that discussions of this nature frequently get contentious, but why did you lock this thread? I think it's useful to hear ideas and share experiences about why some people are not on board with aspects of LGBTQIA+ activism, as long as they aren't hateful .

NP. Look, I want to believe you are well-intentioned, but just the way you posed the question betrays your bias. What you call “LGBTQIA+ activism” is people fighting for the simple right to live their lives in peace. To be able to use the bathroom, change clothes, seek health care, care for their children, and go to school or work without fear of humiliation, abuse, or arrest.

If you want to debate that right, then you want to debate people’s right to exist. There’s no way to do that without being hateful.

We are talking about positions held by mainstream Republicans, not positions held be the fringe in this country. To not allow debate about positions held my a large percentage of the country outside of big cities shows the divide we have in this country.

The non-crazy Republicans left the party a few years ago. The only people left are the extremists.

Wtf? And this right here is the problem not only with this thread, but with the entire country. People make baseless proclamations like this, paint an entire political party with a broad brush, and act like they’re the only one whose opinion matters.

Do better.

Agree very much.

Sorry, it’s true. The non-crazy Republicans left the GOP years ago.

You can keep repeating this til you’re blue in the face. Doesn’t make it true. Although I know you want it to be.

They are either crazy or think that the crazy is acceptable. The people with principles left years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a portion of men who seek out women’s bathrooms to feel good, peep, and masturbate. Remember hearing about the hidden cameras? Those are from men. The number of men who will use these tossed out norms like “bathrooms are for women” to do perverse things is going to go UP when they have more access. I’ve never said it’s trans women who are the problem. The problem is that if women are no longer allowed to ask a male-presenting person from leaving the women’s bathroom because they’re seen as transphobic, then ANY man with a perverted agenda will have more access. All this data focusing on trans women is irrelevant; it’s that removing the norm to prevent men with dirty minds from accessing women’s only spaces is Dani for women.

If you are a female presenting person, no one is going to know and the vast majority of women won’t care. But to continue to hammer that anyone can wake up any day and be a women will put women at risk.

Forcing trans men to use the women’s bathroom because they still have a vagina is normalizing male presenting people using the women’s room. If trans men use the women’s bathroom, you won’t be able to tell if it’s a trans man or a cis man going into the bathroom. Your trans bans are doing the opposite of what you say you want to prevent.

But there are very few Trans Identifying Females who commit sexual assault?

Yes, this is true. Also trans people are more likely to be victims of violent crime than to commit violent crime.

[Anonymous]

I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”

I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:

https://thecritic.co.uk/we-know-what-a-man-is/

I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”

I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:

https://thecritic.co.uk/we-know-what-a-man-is/

I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?

I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”

I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:

https://thecritic.co.uk/we-know-what-a-man-is/

I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?

I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?

I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.

I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”

I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:

https://thecritic.co.uk/we-know-what-a-man-is/

I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?

I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?

I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.

I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.

So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”

I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:

https://thecritic.co.uk/we-know-what-a-man-is/

I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?

I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?

I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.

I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.

So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?

Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.

You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.

I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.

I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”

I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:

https://thecritic.co.uk/we-know-what-a-man-is/

I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?

I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?

I’m the PP. Are you asking seriously (e.g. asking for posts/Tweets/essays etc. in the vein of what the bolded says) or teasing/trolling? I can’t actually tell.

Also, did you read the linked essay?

I’m going to be offline for multiple hours and will respond if you actually are asking for a serious answer, but it will take awhile. If you are just teasing/trolling, that’s fine too and I will respond accordingly but also after awhile.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”

I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:

https://thecritic.co.uk/we-know-what-a-man-is/

I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?

I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?

I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.

I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.

So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?

Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.

You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.

I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.

I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.

I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.

This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.

What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a portion of men who seek out women’s bathrooms to feel good, peep, and masturbate. Remember hearing about the hidden cameras? Those are from men. The number of men who will use these tossed out norms like “bathrooms are for women” to do perverse things is going to go UP when they have more access. I’ve never said it’s trans women who are the problem. The problem is that if women are no longer allowed to ask a male-presenting person from leaving the women’s bathroom because they’re seen as transphobic, then ANY man with a perverted agenda will have more access. All this data focusing on trans women is irrelevant; it’s that removing the norm to prevent men with dirty minds from accessing women’s only spaces is Dani for women.

If you are a female presenting person, no one is going to know and the vast majority of women won’t care. But to continue to hammer that anyone can wake up any day and be a women will put women at risk.

Forcing trans men to use the women’s bathroom because they still have a vagina is normalizing male presenting people using the women’s room. If trans men use the women’s bathroom, you won’t be able to tell if it’s a trans man or a cis man going into the bathroom. Your trans bans are doing the opposite of what you say you want to prevent.

But there are very few Trans Identifying Females who commit sexual assault?

Yes, this is true. Also trans people are more likely to be victims of violent crime than to commit violent crime.

But transwomen retain male violent criminality so I don’t want them in my bathroom. See this Swedish study: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885%20

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”

I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:

https://thecritic.co.uk/we-know-what-a-man-is/

I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?

I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?

I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.

I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.

So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?

Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.

You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.

I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.

I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.

I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.

This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.

What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?

So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”

I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:

https://thecritic.co.uk/we-know-what-a-man-is/

I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?

I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?

I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.

I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.

So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?

Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.

You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.

I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.

I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.

I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.

This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.

What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?

So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.

Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”

I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:

https://thecritic.co.uk/we-know-what-a-man-is/

I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?

I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?

I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.

I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.

So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?

Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.

You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.

I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.

I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.

I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.

This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.

What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?

So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.

Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.

That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.

Do you know what that word means?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”

I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:

https://thecritic.co.uk/we-know-what-a-man-is/

I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?

I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?

I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.

I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.

So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?

Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.

You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.

I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.

I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.

I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.

This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.

What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?

So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.

Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.

That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.

Do you know what that word means?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"

First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?

This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”

I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:

https://thecritic.co.uk/we-know-what-a-man-is/

I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?

I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?

I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.

I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.

So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?

Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.

You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.

I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.

I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.

I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.

This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.

What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?

So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.

Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.

That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.

Do you know what that word means?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"

First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?

This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.

This is what that poster said:

I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?

You’re doing what most trans activists do, which is use burden of proof fallacy.

It’s impossible to find specific posts when there been many posts and threads on this topic. But, just as PP said, I’ve been told that my opinions and concerns don’t matter…especially when it conflicts with trans concerns.