What happened to this California family?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When it's in the 90s and above, even the military has "black flag" conditions and are supposed to allow for specific periods of rest, water, shade and monitoring during drills. And this is military members.

So a 109 degree hike for several miles with a 20 lb baby and gear plus possibly an ailing dog is basically against all logic.

Looking at weather reports it looks like it was in the 80s when they started. Maybe they planned to be back by the time temps reached into the upper 90s to 100+.

South facing exposure. No shade. Even 80F would be hot.

80 degrees isn't very hot in desert climates, even in direct sun. It just didn't stay 80 degrees for very long. From the timeline posted earlier, it was close to 100 degrees at 10am.

It was already mid to high 80s when they started. With no shade and at high altitude, yes that does feel very very hot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If this is near Yosemite and at a high elevation then the combination of thinner air, possible smoke and high heat is probably what did it. We went hike/walking in Yosemite on a not steep mostly paved or dirt path. It didn’t seem that hot, it was shady and I drank beer at lunch. Halfway through I had drank my water and was extremely thirsty and exhausted. There was really no choice but to keep going. I didn’t collapse but when we finally reached the area where the shuttle can take you to the main village and there was a water fountain I was so relieved. I’ve never drank so much water from a drinking fountain. I’m not out of shape but the altitude, beer and heat surprised me.

Beer is a diuretic. It can lead to dehydration. If the couple had drunk beer, that could have speed up the dehydration process. Drinking beer is not a good idea on a hike, and can lead to further impaired judgement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know heat stroke comes on fast. I still think this entire hike makes no sense. It was already close to 90 degrees when they set out, and before 11 was forecasted to hit 103.

If they were seen driving towards the trail head at 7:45 it means they started their walk around 8. By 9 it was very hot, but not heat stroke hot yet. The baby, even with shade, would have been showing signs of struggling in the heat-either being very fussy or lethargic. How far could they have gone and how bad could things really be that one of the parents couldn’t get out by then? Again, I’m saying prior to heat stroke or exhaustion setting in. The heat would have been apparent, they could have just turned around 20-30 minutes in. Also, I had those fancy hiking carries and 1 year olds do not generally like them-they want to be walking and moving around unless they are asleep.

I live in the desert and yes it’s cool in the mornings, but that means 5/6 AM. By 9 AM, nobody goes outside on these kinds of days.

They weren’t tourists. They knew this area. On the WS thread, they said that the dad had been on this trail at least once before and had owned property in the area for years.

It just does not make sense.

From Alltrails, the dad had been on the easier part of the loop before but it looks like he hadn't been on the Savage-Lundy trail before (the steep ascent where they were found). I agree that a long hike on such a hot day seems like a monumentally bad decision. Unfortunately, people make monumentally bad decisions sometimes. They get stuck on one thing and disregard information that contradicts what they want. Everybody does it and it's usually not fatal. It's all just very sad and I wish this family could have a do-over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a mom, if your baby died and your husband was dying, would you leave the dead baby to go for aid? I’m not sure I would be rationale enough to leave them and may take their corpse but that could have been the scene here.

This mom was quite petite. The baby carrier looks big and heavy. She might not have wanted to leave the baby behind but may not have had a choice. She didn’t have the strength to carry it. I honestly think she wasn’t thinking coherently by then from grief, panic and heat exhaustion. The only cell phone mentioned was with the husband and so even if she took off, she didn’t have a cell phone on her. She didn’t think to get his cell phone. It’s all very sad.

The high end hiking carriers are not actually that heavy. Less than 10 pounds. You think the mom couldn’t carry 30 lbs (20 for baby and 10 for pack) if she had to?

No, I don’t. That’s a third of her weight, bulky as f, in 103F heat, on uneven terrain and over 1.5 miles away. Impossible.

Generously, a mile would take her 20 minutes to walk in normal conditions. So 30-minutes for a mile-and-a-half. Now add a 30-pound weight to her back, it would probably take her at least forty-five minutes.

Which there’s no way she could sustain a march that long with that weight.

Also add she has already done 6+ miles in rising temperatures.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If this is near Yosemite and at a high elevation then the combination of thinner air, possible smoke and high heat is probably what did it. We went hike/walking in Yosemite on a not steep mostly paved or dirt path. It didn’t seem that hot, it was shady and I drank beer at lunch. Halfway through I had drank my water and was extremely thirsty and exhausted. There was really no choice but to keep going. I didn’t collapse but when we finally reached the area where the shuttle can take you to the main village and there was a water fountain I was so relieved. I’ve never drank so much water from a drinking fountain. I’m not out of shape but the altitude, beer and heat surprised me.

Beer is a diuretic. It can lead to dehydration. If the couple had drunk beer, that could have speed up the dehydration process. Drinking beer is not a good idea on a hike, and can lead to further impaired judgement.

You people. None of this has anything to do with this family who was not at a high elevation, not in Yosemite, and not drinking beer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a mom, if your baby died and your husband was dying, would you leave the dead baby to go for aid? I’m not sure I would be rationale enough to leave them and may take their corpse but that could have been the scene here.

This mom was quite petite. The baby carrier looks big and heavy. She might not have wanted to leave the baby behind but may not have had a choice. She didn’t have the strength to carry it. I honestly think she wasn’t thinking coherently by then from grief, panic and heat exhaustion. The only cell phone mentioned was with the husband and so even if she took off, she didn’t have a cell phone on her. She didn’t think to get his cell phone. It’s all very sad.

Lack of a cell phone on her to me indicates she wasn't going for help, but that she had collapsed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know heat stroke comes on fast. I still think this entire hike makes no sense. It was already close to 90 degrees when they set out, and before 11 was forecasted to hit 103.

If they were seen driving towards the trail head at 7:45 it means they started their walk around 8. By 9 it was very hot, but not heat stroke hot yet. The baby, even with shade, would have been showing signs of struggling in the heat-either being very fussy or lethargic. How far could they have gone and how bad could things really be that one of the parents couldn’t get out by then? Again, I’m saying prior to heat stroke or exhaustion setting in. The heat would have been apparent, they could have just turned around 20-30 minutes in. Also, I had those fancy hiking carries and 1 year olds do not generally like them-they want to be walking and moving around unless they are asleep.

I live in the desert and yes it’s cool in the mornings, but that means 5/6 AM. By 9 AM, nobody goes outside on these kinds of days.

They weren’t tourists. They knew this area. On the WS thread, they said that the dad had been on this trail at least once before and had owned property in the area for years.

It just does not make sense.

I think they thought they could it (and the adults might have indeed been able to) but foolishly didn’t realize that it is a giant NO for a dog or a baby. I also live in the desert and I guarantee when I go to pick my kids up for school in an hour I will drive by quite a few walkers and runners (as much as it surprises me). current temp 100. I see plenty of adults walking, running, golfing or playing tennis in the midday heat. Camps and sports run all summer here for school aged kids and teens. My kids do them (with lots of water and breaks) and are totally unfazed. Now obviously this isn’t at all similar to hiking in a remote area but with plenty of water, I’m surprised by how well healthy people function in the heat. (Not me!).

But for dogs and infants (or the elderly)? NO. My school aged kids can handle it, but my dog absolutely not. An infant absolutely not.

I think that is what did them in. They stupidly didn’t realize that a dog and a baby have different needs in the heat.

And I’m not advocating hiking in the heat (stupid for anyone) but there are a lot of people who exercise quite intensely in the heat. But they don’t bring their dog, and sure as heck don’t bring an infant.

They were overconfident, thought they could do it, and didn’t consider the baby or the dog.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a mom, if your baby died and your husband was dying, would you leave the dead baby to go for aid? I’m not sure I would be rationale enough to leave them and may take their corpse but that could have been the scene here.

This mom was quite petite. The baby carrier looks big and heavy. She might not have wanted to leave the baby behind but may not have had a choice. She didn’t have the strength to carry it. I honestly think she wasn’t thinking coherently by then from grief, panic and heat exhaustion. The only cell phone mentioned was with the husband and so even if she took off, she didn’t have a cell phone on her. She didn’t think to get his cell phone. It’s all very sad.

The high end hiking carriers are not actually that heavy. Less than 10 pounds. You think the mom couldn’t carry 30 lbs (20 for baby and 10 for pack) if she had to?

It didn’t matter. By the time the wife went on ahead the baby was already dead.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know heat stroke comes on fast. I still think this entire hike makes no sense. It was already close to 90 degrees when they set out, and before 11 was forecasted to hit 103.

If they were seen driving towards the trail head at 7:45 it means they started their walk around 8. By 9 it was very hot, but not heat stroke hot yet. The baby, even with shade, would have been showing signs of struggling in the heat-either being very fussy or lethargic. How far could they have gone and how bad could things really be that one of the parents couldn’t get out by then? Again, I’m saying prior to heat stroke or exhaustion setting in. The heat would have been apparent, they could have just turned around 20-30 minutes in. Also, I had those fancy hiking carries and 1 year olds do not generally like them-they want to be walking and moving around unless they are asleep.

I live in the desert and yes it’s cool in the mornings, but that means 5/6 AM. By 9 AM, nobody goes outside on these kinds of days.

They weren’t tourists. They knew this area. On the WS thread, they said that the dad had been on this trail at least once before and had owned property in the area for years.

It just does not make sense.

I think they thought they could it (and the adults might have indeed been able to) but foolishly didn’t realize that it is a giant NO for a dog or a baby. I also live in the desert and I guarantee when I go to pick my kids up for school in an hour I will drive by quite a few walkers and runners (as much as it surprises me). current temp 100. I see plenty of adults walking, running, golfing or playing tennis in the midday heat. Camps and sports run all summer here for school aged kids and teens. My kids do them (with lots of water and breaks) and are totally unfazed. Now obviously this isn’t at all similar to hiking in a remote area but with plenty of water, I’m surprised by how well healthy people function in the heat. (Not me!).

But for dogs and infants (or the elderly)? NO. My school aged kids can handle it, but my dog absolutely not. An infant absolutely not.

I think that is what did them in. They stupidly didn’t realize that a dog and a baby have different needs in the heat.

And I’m not advocating hiking in the heat (stupid for anyone) but there are a lot of people who exercise quite intensely in the heat. But they don’t bring their dog, and sure as heck don’t bring an infant.

They were overconfident, thought they could do it, and didn’t consider the baby or the dog.

Ok, but again, let’s say you’re right, they were just over confident. The baby would have been showing effects from the heat 30 minutes into the hike on a hot day like that. Not yet life threatening probably, but grouchy or lethargic. How far could they really have gotten before baby was ultra fussy or starting to seem overheated? When they started the hike it was already hot.

I feel like all the analysis here assumes they started out and it wasn’t too hot yet, got too far down the trail before they realized the heat, and then were too far away to get back quickly.

I’m not buying it because when they started it was already very hot and they had a baby with them who would have been either protesting, bright red, lethargic, or vomiting soon into the hike. How could they have just oops, went too far, overcommitted when babies (actually a toddler in this case) have no problem making their objections known or showing signs of distress way before the adults.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a mom, if your baby died and your husband was dying, would you leave the dead baby to go for aid? I’m not sure I would be rationale enough to leave them and may take their corpse but that could have been the scene here.

This mom was quite petite. The baby carrier looks big and heavy. She might not have wanted to leave the baby behind but may not have had a choice. She didn’t have the strength to carry it. I honestly think she wasn’t thinking coherently by then from grief, panic and heat exhaustion. The only cell phone mentioned was with the husband and so even if she took off, she didn’t have a cell phone on her. She didn’t think to get his cell phone. It’s all very sad.

Lack of a cell phone on her to me indicates she wasn't going for help, but that she had collapsed.

Law enforcement has not said she did not have a cell phone. They've mentioned that the husband DID, but they did not say that she did not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know heat stroke comes on fast. I still think this entire hike makes no sense. It was already close to 90 degrees when they set out, and before 11 was forecasted to hit 103.

If they were seen driving towards the trail head at 7:45 it means they started their walk around 8. By 9 it was very hot, but not heat stroke hot yet. The baby, even with shade, would have been showing signs of struggling in the heat-either being very fussy or lethargic. How far could they have gone and how bad could things really be that one of the parents couldn’t get out by then? Again, I’m saying prior to heat stroke or exhaustion setting in. The heat would have been apparent, they could have just turned around 20-30 minutes in. Also, I had those fancy hiking carries and 1 year olds do not generally like them-they want to be walking and moving around unless they are asleep.

I live in the desert and yes it’s cool in the mornings, but that means 5/6 AM. By 9 AM, nobody goes outside on these kinds of days.

They weren’t tourists. They knew this area. On the WS thread, they said that the dad had been on this trail at least once before and had owned property in the area for years.

It just does not make sense.

I think they thought they could it (and the adults might have indeed been able to) but foolishly didn’t realize that it is a giant NO for a dog or a baby. I also live in the desert and I guarantee when I go to pick my kids up for school in an hour I will drive by quite a few walkers and runners (as much as it surprises me). current temp 100. I see plenty of adults walking, running, golfing or playing tennis in the midday heat. Camps and sports run all summer here for school aged kids and teens. My kids do them (with lots of water and breaks) and are totally unfazed. Now obviously this isn’t at all similar to hiking in a remote area but with plenty of water, I’m surprised by how well healthy people function in the heat. (Not me!).

But for dogs and infants (or the elderly)? NO. My school aged kids can handle it, but my dog absolutely not. An infant absolutely not.

I think that is what did them in. They stupidly didn’t realize that a dog and a baby have different needs in the heat.

And I’m not advocating hiking in the heat (stupid for anyone) but there are a lot of people who exercise quite intensely in the heat. But they don’t bring their dog, and sure as heck don’t bring an infant.

They were overconfident, thought they could do it, and didn’t consider the baby or the dog.

Ok, but again, let’s say you’re right, they were just over confident. The baby would have been showing effects from the heat 30 minutes into the hike on a hot day like that. Not yet life threatening probably, but grouchy or lethargic. How far could they really have gotten before baby was ultra fussy or starting to seem overheated? When they started the hike it was already hot.

I feel like all the analysis here assumes they started out and it wasn’t too hot yet, got too far down the trail before they realized the heat, and then were too far away to get back quickly.

I’m not buying it because when they started it was already very hot and they had a baby with them who would have been either protesting, bright red, lethargic, or vomiting soon into the hike. How could they have just oops, went too far, overcommitted when babies (actually a toddler in this case) have no problem making their objections known or showing signs of distress way before the adults.

It’s a great question. I don’t know how a baby would react to being soooo overheated. Maybe the baby fussed, they kept going, and baby fell asleep? (and they thought baby was taking her normal mid morning nap, zonked out with the motion, and didn’t realize until too late). All of my kids would’ve screamed at the very idea of being in a carrier (wanted to be down and run) but maybe this baby was far more used to the carrier given they were avid hikers?

[Anonymous]

The baby could have been lethargic and they may have mistook that for sleeping.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The baby could have been lethargic and they may have mistook that for sleeping.

I think that’s possible but jeez, these parents really made a whole lot of mistakes all at once then. Wouldn’t the baby have been quite red and sweaty? I just can’t imagine not being attuned to that on such a hot day.

At a certain point, I am unable to buy that the family was that dumb. It’s easier for me to believe they were troubled than this stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know heat stroke comes on fast. I still think this entire hike makes no sense. It was already close to 90 degrees when they set out, and before 11 was forecasted to hit 103.

If they were seen driving towards the trail head at 7:45 it means they started their walk around 8. By 9 it was very hot, but not heat stroke hot yet. The baby, even with shade, would have been showing signs of struggling in the heat-either being very fussy or lethargic. How far could they have gone and how bad could things really be that one of the parents couldn’t get out by then? Again, I’m saying prior to heat stroke or exhaustion setting in. The heat would have been apparent, they could have just turned around 20-30 minutes in. Also, I had those fancy hiking carries and 1 year olds do not generally like them-they want to be walking and moving around unless they are asleep.

I live in the desert and yes it’s cool in the mornings, but that means 5/6 AM. By 9 AM, nobody goes outside on these kinds of days.

They weren’t tourists. They knew this area. On the WS thread, they said that the dad had been on this trail at least once before and had owned property in the area for years.

It just does not make sense.

I think they thought they could it (and the adults might have indeed been able to) but foolishly didn’t realize that it is a giant NO for a dog or a baby. I also live in the desert and I guarantee when I go to pick my kids up for school in an hour I will drive by quite a few walkers and runners (as much as it surprises me). current temp 100. I see plenty of adults walking, running, golfing or playing tennis in the midday heat. Camps and sports run all summer here for school aged kids and teens. My kids do them (with lots of water and breaks) and are totally unfazed. Now obviously this isn’t at all similar to hiking in a remote area but with plenty of water, I’m surprised by how well healthy people function in the heat. (Not me!).

But for dogs and infants (or the elderly)? NO. My school aged kids can handle it, but my dog absolutely not. An infant absolutely not.

I think that is what did them in. They stupidly didn’t realize that a dog and a baby have different needs in the heat.

And I’m not advocating hiking in the heat (stupid for anyone) but there are a lot of people who exercise quite intensely in the heat. But they don’t bring their dog, and sure as heck don’t bring an infant.

They were overconfident, thought they could do it, and didn’t consider the baby or the dog.

Ok, but again, let’s say you’re right, they were just over confident. The baby would have been showing effects from the heat 30 minutes into the hike on a hot day like that. Not yet life threatening probably, but grouchy or lethargic. How far could they really have gotten before baby was ultra fussy or starting to seem overheated? When they started the hike it was already hot.

I feel like all the analysis here assumes they started out and it wasn’t too hot yet, got too far down the trail before they realized the heat, and then were too far away to get back quickly.

I’m not buying it because when they started it was already very hot and they had a baby with them who would have been either protesting, bright red, lethargic, or vomiting soon into the hike. How could they have just oops, went too far, overcommitted when babies (actually a toddler in this case) have no problem making their objections known or showing signs of distress way before the adults.

Mid, even high 80's does not feel that hot in a dry environment. If the baby was well hydrated, she absolutely would not have been showing those signs even an hour into the hike, especially if the family were following the Cove Trail at that point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When it's in the 90s and above, even the military has "black flag" conditions and are supposed to allow for specific periods of rest, water, shade and monitoring during drills. And this is military members.

So a 109 degree hike for several miles with a 20 lb baby and gear plus possibly an ailing dog is basically against all logic.

Looking at weather reports it looks like it was in the 80s when they started. Maybe they planned to be back by the time temps reached into the upper 90s to 100+.

South facing exposure. No shade. Even 80F would be hot.

80 degrees isn't very hot in desert climates, even in direct sun. It just didn't stay 80 degrees for very long. From the timeline posted earlier, it was close to 100 degrees at 10am.

It was already mid to high 80s when they started. With no shade and at high altitude, yes that does feel very very hot.

They were not at "high altitude," they were at 1900'. I live about 100 miles north of that area at a similar altitude and we happened to go to a local state park that very same day. We got to the park at 9am and left at 1pm. We didn't do any serious hiking but the temperature was moderate and not "very very hot." We left at 1pm because it was starting to warm up. If the family arrived at the trailhead at 8am (they were spotted in their car at 7:45am) they would have had 4 hours before the temp reached 100 and potentially dangerous with no shade.