What happened to this California family?

[Anonymous]

I’m on the murder-suicide train. I think the husband did it. Who knows maybe he was having financial difficulties with all his rentals. Maybe the tenants couldn’t pay and he couldn’t evict them. Mortgage payments were getting to him. He researched the trail the night before to make sure the conditions would be unfavorable for other hikers, so he could lead his victims far enough down the trail to give them the poison with the good chance that no one else would discover them that day and they would be far enough away from the car so that she couldn't escape. She would have been none wiser since they hike all the time and he had a known love of exploring old mines. He might have given them all poison and told her what she did. That’s why she was trying to get to the car.

Before someone says there’s nothing to show this, I don’t believe law enforcement has shared with the public all they have found so far.

And this is a discussion forum so you can spare me the posts about how this is victim blaming.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m on the murder-suicide train. I think the husband did it. Who knows maybe he was having financial difficulties with all his rentals. Maybe the tenants couldn’t pay and he couldn’t evict them. Mortgage payments were getting to him. He researched the trail the night before to make sure the conditions would be unfavorable for other hikers, so he could lead his victims far enough down the trail to give them the poison with the good chance that no one else would discover them that day and they would be far enough away from the car so that she couldn't escape. She would have been none wiser since they hike all the time and he had a known love of exploring old mines. He might have given them all poison and told her what she did. That’s why she was trying to get to the car.

Before someone says there’s nothing to show this, I don’t believe law enforcement has shared with the public all they have found so far.

And this is a discussion forum so you can spare me the posts about how this is victim blaming.

what *he* did

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:When it's in the 90s and above, even the military has "black flag" conditions and are supposed to allow for specific periods of rest, water, shade and monitoring during drills. And this is military members.

So a 109 degree hike for several miles with a 20 lb baby and gear plus possibly an ailing dog is basically against all logic.

Looking at weather reports it looks like it was in the 80s when they started. Maybe they planned to be back by the time temps reached into the upper 90s to 100+.

South facing exposure. No shade. Even 80F would be hot.

80 degrees isn't very hot in desert climates, even in direct sun. It just didn't stay 80 degrees for very long. From the timeline posted earlier, it was close to 100 degrees at 10am.

It was already mid to high 80s when they started. With no shade and at high altitude, yes that does feel very very hot.

They were not at "high altitude," they were at 1900'. I live about 100 miles north of that area at a similar altitude and we happened to go to a local state park that very same day. We got to the park at 9am and left at 1pm. We didn't do any serious hiking but the temperature was moderate and not "very very hot." We left at 1pm because it was starting to warm up. If the family arrived at the trailhead at 8am (they were spotted in their car at 7:45am) they would have had 4 hours before the temp reached 100 and potentially dangerous with no shade.

If you look up thread the hourly temps for this day are posted. It hit 103 at 11 and was well into the 90s by 9.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When it's in the 90s and above, even the military has "black flag" conditions and are supposed to allow for specific periods of rest, water, shade and monitoring during drills. And this is military members.

So a 109 degree hike for several miles with a 20 lb baby and gear plus possibly an ailing dog is basically against all logic.

Looking at weather reports it looks like it was in the 80s when they started. Maybe they planned to be back by the time temps reached into the upper 90s to 100+.

South facing exposure. No shade. Even 80F would be hot.

80 degrees isn't very hot in desert climates, even in direct sun. It just didn't stay 80 degrees for very long. From the timeline posted earlier, it was close to 100 degrees at 10am.

It was already mid to high 80s when they started. With no shade and at high altitude, yes that does feel very very hot.

They were not at "high altitude," they were at 1900'. I live about 100 miles north of that area at a similar altitude and we happened to go to a local state park that very same day. We got to the park at 9am and left at 1pm. We didn't do any serious hiking but the temperature was moderate and not "very very hot." We left at 1pm because it was starting to warm up. If the family arrived at the trailhead at 8am (they were spotted in their car at 7:45am) they would have had 4 hours before the temp reached 100 and potentially dangerous with no shade.

If you look up thread the hourly temps for this day are posted. It hit 103 at 11 and was well into the 90s by 9.

I think they were counting on ~4 hrs of moderate temperature before it got really hot. It got hotter, faster than usual. I still think they got a good 2+ hrs into their hike before it started becoming apparent that heat was going to be more than they expected. At that point they were miles from the car having followed the more gentle Cove Trail down to the river. They spent longer than they intended down by the river and decided to take the more direct Savage-Lundy trail back to their car.

[Anonymous]

He looked like a nice guy though, and helped out carrying the baby and walking the dog. Hikers are usually good people. OTOH, he could have been punishing her by choosing a hike he knew would be difficult for her. Some men will make the wife's life hell instead of just divorcing them. The baby was young though, so I'd think their relationship must have still been pretty good. They could have been trying to get pictures of an adventure to post on social media. Turning back early would be seen as failure, which they wouldn't want to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The baby could have been lethargic and they may have mistook that for sleeping.

I think that’s possible but jeez, these parents really made a whole lot of mistakes all at once then. Wouldn’t the baby have been quite red and sweaty? I just can’t imagine not being attuned to that on such a hot day.

At a certain point, I am unable to buy that the family was that dumb. It’s easier for me to believe they were troubled than this stupid.

Right?!?! Even on beach vacations (at temps lower than this) we always went indoors for the hotter midday hours when we had little ones. Very common right? Nevermind the constant fretting about shade, sunscreen, encouraging liquids etc due to concerns about overheating. Pretty normal among parents. It’s hard to believe a parent would not be concerned about the sun and heat with an infant this age...

[Anonymous]

What it feels like to die from heatstroke -- https://www.outsideonline.com/health/wellness/heat-stroke-signs-symptoms/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When it's in the 90s and above, even the military has "black flag" conditions and are supposed to allow for specific periods of rest, water, shade and monitoring during drills. And this is military members.

So a 109 degree hike for several miles with a 20 lb baby and gear plus possibly an ailing dog is basically against all logic.

Looking at weather reports it looks like it was in the 80s when they started. Maybe they planned to be back by the time temps reached into the upper 90s to 100+.

South facing exposure. No shade. Even 80F would be hot.

80 degrees isn't very hot in desert climates, even in direct sun. It just didn't stay 80 degrees for very long. From the timeline posted earlier, it was close to 100 degrees at 10am.

It was already mid to high 80s when they started. With no shade and at high altitude, yes that does feel very very hot.

They were not at "high altitude," they were at 1900'. I live about 100 miles north of that area at a similar altitude and we happened to go to a local state park that very same day. We got to the park at 9am and left at 1pm. We didn't do any serious hiking but the temperature was moderate and not "very very hot." We left at 1pm because it was starting to warm up. If the family arrived at the trailhead at 8am (they were spotted in their car at 7:45am) they would have had 4 hours before the temp reached 100 and potentially dangerous with no shade.

If you look up thread the hourly temps for this day are posted. It hit 103 at 11 and was well into the 90s by 9.

Actually no. This is from the official Sheriffs report: "Spot Weather for the area indicates temperatures during 11:50 am – 5:50 pm ranged between 103-109 degrees in certain areas of the trail." They actually had almost 5 hours in very manageable temps before that could have become a factor. I was out in very, very similar conditions that morning and it was not life threatening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The baby could have been lethargic and they may have mistook that for sleeping.

I think that’s possible but jeez, these parents really made a whole lot of mistakes all at once then. Wouldn’t the baby have been quite red and sweaty? I just can’t imagine not being attuned to that on such a hot day.

At a certain point, I am unable to buy that the family was that dumb. It’s easier for me to believe they were troubled than this stupid.

Right?!?! Even on beach vacations (at temps lower than this) we always went indoors for the hotter midday hours when we had little ones. Very common right? Nevermind the constant fretting about shade, sunscreen, encouraging liquids etc due to concerns about overheating. Pretty normal among parents. It’s hard to believe a parent would not be concerned about the sun and heat with an infant this age...

Especially being in one of those carriers….even the super high end ones are still kinda hot and stuffy on a super hot day. Even with a sun shade, it just feels like the baby would have been pretty exposed to the heat.

I went with my brother and niece on a hike in the desert with her in the carrier (in April, in the morning). Temps got into the 80s and we were pretty constantly adjusting her in one way or another. And this was on a 45 minute hike. And he’d used the carrier with her many dozens of times before. It’s just natural when they are in the heat and exposed like that to be checking them frequently for any indication of an issue (not even just overheating but pinching, sunscreen in their eyes, or the baby is fussing and you are trying to figure out why, a poopy diaper, etc.).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a mom, if your baby died and your husband was dying, would you leave the dead baby to go for aid? I’m not sure I would be rationale enough to leave them and may take their corpse but that could have been the scene here.

This mom was quite petite. The baby carrier looks big and heavy. She might not have wanted to leave the baby behind but may not have had a choice. She didn’t have the strength to carry it. I honestly think she wasn’t thinking coherently by then from grief, panic and heat exhaustion. The only cell phone mentioned was with the husband and so even if she took off, she didn’t have a cell phone on her. She didn’t think to get his cell phone. It’s all very sad.

Lack of a cell phone on her to me indicates she wasn't going for help, but that she had collapsed.

Law enforcement has not said she did not have a cell phone. They've mentioned that the husband DID, but they did not say that she did not.

She may also have had her phone in the car. It would make sense to leave the other with the dad in that case if she thought he was just resting and might get lucky and get some cell service.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The baby could have been lethargic and they may have mistook that for sleeping.

The baby could have been…. Unconscious… or worse and they were too out of it themselves. Anyway what could the do but hike back ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What it feels like to die from heatstroke -- https://www.outsideonline.com/health/wellness/heat-stroke-signs-symptoms/

I thought that was a good article.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The baby could have been lethargic and they may have mistook that for sleeping.

The baby could have been…. Unconscious… or worse and they were too out of it themselves. Anyway what could the do but hike back ?

The point PP was making related to the question of how they even got so far into the hike on such a hot morning with a baby. Wasn’t the baby super red, fussy, sweating, lethargic, etc.

We are a little baffled on how they got so far that they couldn’t get back out when the baby would likely have been showing signs of being grouchy and overheated early on in the hike since it was so hot even when they first started (at 8) and was well into the 90s by 9 AM.

[Anonymous]

What are the chances of rattlesnake bites or venomous insects?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When it's in the 90s and above, even the military has "black flag" conditions and are supposed to allow for specific periods of rest, water, shade and monitoring during drills. And this is military members.

So a 109 degree hike for several miles with a 20 lb baby and gear plus possibly an ailing dog is basically against all logic.

Looking at weather reports it looks like it was in the 80s when they started. Maybe they planned to be back by the time temps reached into the upper 90s to 100+.

South facing exposure. No shade. Even 80F would be hot.

80 degrees isn't very hot in desert climates, even in direct sun. It just didn't stay 80 degrees for very long. From the timeline posted earlier, it was close to 100 degrees at 10am.

It was already mid to high 80s when they started. With no shade and at high altitude, yes that does feel very very hot.

They were not at "high altitude," they were at 1900'. I live about 100 miles north of that area at a similar altitude and we happened to go to a local state park that very same day. We got to the park at 9am and left at 1pm. We didn't do any serious hiking but the temperature was moderate and not "very very hot." We left at 1pm because it was starting to warm up. If the family arrived at the trailhead at 8am (they were spotted in their car at 7:45am) they would have had 4 hours before the temp reached 100 and potentially dangerous with no shade.

If you look up thread the hourly temps for this day are posted. It hit 103 at 11 and was well into the 90s by 9.

Actually no. This is from the official Sheriffs report: "Spot Weather for the area indicates temperatures during 11:50 am – 5:50 pm ranged between 103-109 degrees in certain areas of the trail." They actually had almost 5 hours in very manageable temps before that could have become a factor. I was out in very, very similar conditions that morning and it was not life threatening.

Closer to almost 4 hours if they started out at 8am.