The White Lotus season 2

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Albie is so gross

I am kind of confused by the distaste for Albie in this thread. I don't find him distasteful, I actually do find him to be pretty much what you'd want out of a guy? He takes no for an answer, isn't shaming any of the women for their choices. Isn't excusing the bad behavior of the men in his life. I do think he is going to get screwed over by a woman and we will see his true colors but I don't think he's done anything bad and wonder if this is a choice in itself. Showing a non dominant but confident guy who isn't incredibly anything (not incredibly handsome or powerful or anything at all, just very average, but essentially one of the only people making good choices that don't hurt others) but who is unlikeable for some amorphous reason. A foil to Cam who from all objective measures is absolutely horrible but is SO handsome and affectionate that you have to keep reminding yourself how bad he is when he's not being blatantly terrible.

For me, the distaste is because I get the vibe that he isn't all that he seems/wants to be. He is parroting progressive/feminist ideas he heard in college but he has an underlying entitlement that you can tell is going to come out at some point.

I think he is the classic "nice guy" where he will feel like he is entitled to affection from a woman because he has done and said all the right, feminist-approved things. And he will turn nasty when he doesn't get what he thinks he deserves.

I guess I'm turning into Albie's defender on this thread.

But - what exactly gives you this impression? When did he act entitled to affection? Where have you seen an underlying entitlement?

When he saw Portia flirting with the other guy, I didn't see any anger or entitlement. He kind of just moved on. And seemed completely fine when he ran into her in the hallway in the last episode. He may have been disappointed or felt brushed aside, but that seems kind of normal. I didn't see any sign of underlying anger or was about to turn nasty.

I agree. He was sad. I don’t think he’s an angry guy at all. He’s clueless and naive and inexperienced with the opposite sex and ends up with “damaged, broken” women. Likely a result of his upbringing.

I'm the PP who said I think he will turn nasty. You're right that he hasn't shown an angry side yet. But in his interaction with Portia he was almost reproachful towards her - like she needed to explain why she chose Jack, when really she didn't owe him anything.

That, combined with the fact that the show is focused on the dynamics of sex and power, makes me think he is going to turn resentful and angry, probably after he gets burned by Lucia

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Albie is so gross

I am kind of confused by the distaste for Albie in this thread. I don't find him distasteful, I actually do find him to be pretty much what you'd want out of a guy? He takes no for an answer, isn't shaming any of the women for their choices. Isn't excusing the bad behavior of the men in his life. I do think he is going to get screwed over by a woman and we will see his true colors but I don't think he's done anything bad and wonder if this is a choice in itself. Showing a non dominant but confident guy who isn't incredibly anything (not incredibly handsome or powerful or anything at all, just very average, but essentially one of the only people making good choices that don't hurt others) but who is unlikeable for some amorphous reason. A foil to Cam who from all objective measures is absolutely horrible but is SO handsome and affectionate that you have to keep reminding yourself how bad he is when he's not being blatantly terrible.

Upthread people were attacking Albie for his "girls aren't attracted to nice guys line," and then this thread proves him right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Can we talk about Ethan actually did cheat. I’m sorry but hiring hookers getting them to your room, undressing, kissing and then crying. GTFO that’s not “doing nothing”. So annoyed by this. Like is actual penetration the line. Is this Bill Clinton train of thinking?

No, he didn't. He behaved badly, but most of it was by being adjacent to Cameron. Ethan is so passive--do you honestly think he was the impetus behind finding the girls, flirting with them, inviting them back to their room, and undressing them? He was just high and drunk and along for the ride. He rejected Mia's overtures.

I get the sense that Ethan is not normally this passive, and that his passive behavior towards Cameron on this trip is a big part of what is unsettling Harper. I think normally, Ethan is probably pretty direct and opinionated (he built and sold a tech business that has made them incredibly rich, he's probably not a pushover). I also bet that normally he and Harper are both kind of caustic and critical of people they think are less intelligent than them. You get glimpses of this. They seem like a couple who was attracted to each other for being curious, intelligent, and aware. They sit in bed and read books and work on their computers. They probably talk about work a lot and love that they both are so good at and interested in their jobs. I get the sense that if the met some random couple on a vacation and that couple was like "we don't vote or read! I love Dateline and we're friends with Jeff Bezos!" Ethan would be right there with Harper in skewering them later that night as vapid and stupid.

But he's not doing that with Cameron and keep suggesting they are "fun". And you can tell Harper is just like "who are you and what did you do with my husband?" Like I just get the sense based on her interactions with him that he is acting VERY unusually. What reads as her being super negative and unpleasant to him is actually her being confused and frustrated because normally they'd cackle about the dump rich couple from dinner and instead he's suddenly defending them. Is it because he's newly rich and wants to be the dumb rich couple? Or is it because he's distracted by this longstanding beef with Cameron that is consuming him and making him withdraw into himself? It's very unclear. But I think normally Ethan would be rolling his eyes right along with Harper and they'd probably bond over their shared sense of superiority. Harper is frustrated that's not happening and it's making her feel very distant from her husband during a huge shift in their financial circumstances due to his job, not hers. And it's making her insecure.

Cameran did him once. The porn is his attempt at self therapy.

I've wondered about this. The scene with Cameron and Ethan in bed, where Cameron is "coming on" to Ethan is played as a joke, but Ethan didn't look amused.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Albie is so gross

I am kind of confused by the distaste for Albie in this thread. I don't find him distasteful, I actually do find him to be pretty much what you'd want out of a guy? He takes no for an answer, isn't shaming any of the women for their choices. Isn't excusing the bad behavior of the men in his life. I do think he is going to get screwed over by a woman and we will see his true colors but I don't think he's done anything bad and wonder if this is a choice in itself. Showing a non dominant but confident guy who isn't incredibly anything (not incredibly handsome or powerful or anything at all, just very average, but essentially one of the only people making good choices that don't hurt others) but who is unlikeable for some amorphous reason. A foil to Cam who from all objective measures is absolutely horrible but is SO handsome and affectionate that you have to keep reminding yourself how bad he is when he's not being blatantly terrible.

For me, the distaste is because I get the vibe that he isn't all that he seems/wants to be. He is parroting progressive/feminist ideas he heard in college but he has an underlying entitlement that you can tell is going to come out at some point.

I think he is the classic "nice guy" where he will feel like he is entitled to affection from a woman because he has done and said all the right, feminist-approved things. And he will turn nasty when he doesn't get what he thinks he deserves.

I guess I'm turning into Albie's defender on this thread.

But - what exactly gives you this impression? When did he act entitled to affection? Where have you seen an underlying entitlement?

When he saw Portia flirting with the other guy, I didn't see any anger or entitlement. He kind of just moved on. And seemed completely fine when he ran into her in the hallway in the last episode. He may have been disappointed or felt brushed aside, but that seems kind of normal. I didn't see any sign of underlying anger or was about to turn nasty.

I agree. He was sad. I don’t think he’s an angry guy at all. He’s clueless and naive and inexperienced with the opposite sex and ends up with “damaged, broken” women. Likely a result of his upbringing.

I'm the PP who said I think he will turn nasty. You're right that he hasn't shown an angry side yet. But in his interaction with Portia he was almost reproachful towards her - like she needed to explain why she chose Jack, when really she didn't owe him anything.

That, combined with the fact that the show is focused on the dynamics of sex and power, makes me think he is going to turn resentful and angry, probably after he gets burned by Lucia

Portia should have been reproachful. She stood him up. Said they would hang out and then openly ditched him to hook up with a different guy. She behaved badly and he was genuinely I think wronged there (though not severely and of course he isn't entitled to her time but she said she would meet him and didn't). He expressed to her that that was lame but didn't push it. I feel like Albie is actually quite self assured. Unwilling to be a doormat but also unwilling to be coercive. He's standing up to his dad similarly. He is not extraordinary, but he is quietly quite confident, a quality almost every other man on the show lacks.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to say that the death in the first season was an accident not a murder and I would imagine it will be somewhat similar this time around. I think the point of the show is that it is these people's carelessness and selfishness and lack of empathy that results in the tragedy. The whodunnit element was a total red herring the first time around.

+1, was just thinking this. I think it's highly unlikely that someone murders someone else in cold blood, and the idea that one character would murder another and then get murdered by yet another character really strains credulity. One thing I like about this show is that, while it's heightened and played for drama, most of the characters and what happens is somewhat realistic.

I think it's most likely that the bodies in the water are there from drug overdose, falling overboard while out on a boat (or jet skis), natural causes (ahem, Bert), or maybe an altercation that no one intends to be deadly but winds up that way. I am open to the idea of something more nefarious because I don't think they'll just want to repeat the "accidental violent death" storyline from last season, but I doubt we're going to get a straight up murder. Especially because the show has been very heavy handed with all the references to murder this season, and I just don't think Mike White is that literal.

I think suicide is a possibility too. Maybe Nonno bc he was so crushed by Dom's characterization of his marriage. I think Lucia getting killed is likely - maybe not a premeditated murder, but a confrontation with either Cameron or Albie/Dom that spirals out of control

I think it would be an interesting twist if Albie turns out to be the "bad guy" w/r/t Lucia. He has some incel energy bubbling underneath the wokeness and it might underline the point that it's hard to break the toxic masculinity cycle

I actually think Albie is at risk particularly with how Lucia plays so recklessly with drugs. I don't see him becoming some sexist incel but I can imagine him being drunk and encouraged to take whatever crazy stuff Lucia has.

At least Lucia knows what her drugs are! I couldn't believe Mia just gave the piano player a random pill, assuming/hoping/guessing it was Viagra. That was really irresponsible.

I mean, he's a fully grown adult man - he took it!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to say that the death in the first season was an accident not a murder and I would imagine it will be somewhat similar this time around. I think the point of the show is that it is these people's carelessness and selfishness and lack of empathy that results in the tragedy. The whodunnit element was a total red herring the first time around.

+1, was just thinking this. I think it's highly unlikely that someone murders someone else in cold blood, and the idea that one character would murder another and then get murdered by yet another character really strains credulity. One thing I like about this show is that, while it's heightened and played for drama, most of the characters and what happens is somewhat realistic.

I think it's most likely that the bodies in the water are there from drug overdose, falling overboard while out on a boat (or jet skis), natural causes (ahem, Bert), or maybe an altercation that no one intends to be deadly but winds up that way. I am open to the idea of something more nefarious because I don't think they'll just want to repeat the "accidental violent death" storyline from last season, but I doubt we're going to get a straight up murder. Especially because the show has been very heavy handed with all the references to murder this season, and I just don't think Mike White is that literal.

I think suicide is a possibility too. Maybe Nonno bc he was so crushed by Dom's characterization of his marriage. I think Lucia getting killed is likely - maybe not a premeditated murder, but a confrontation with either Cameron or Albie/Dom that spirals out of control

I think it would be an interesting twist if Albie turns out to be the "bad guy" w/r/t Lucia. He has some incel energy bubbling underneath the wokeness and it might underline the point that it's hard to break the toxic masculinity cycle

I actually think Albie is at risk particularly with how Lucia plays so recklessly with drugs. I don't see him becoming some sexist incel but I can imagine him being drunk and encouraged to take whatever crazy stuff Lucia has.

At least Lucia knows what her drugs are! I couldn't believe Mia just gave the piano player a random pill, assuming/hoping/guessing it was Viagra. That was really irresponsible.

I mean, he's a fully grown adult man - he took it!!

Piano man is so gross

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Albie is so gross

I am kind of confused by the distaste for Albie in this thread. I don't find him distasteful, I actually do find him to be pretty much what you'd want out of a guy? He takes no for an answer, isn't shaming any of the women for their choices. Isn't excusing the bad behavior of the men in his life. I do think he is going to get screwed over by a woman and we will see his true colors but I don't think he's done anything bad and wonder if this is a choice in itself. Showing a non dominant but confident guy who isn't incredibly anything (not incredibly handsome or powerful or anything at all, just very average, but essentially one of the only people making good choices that don't hurt others) but who is unlikeable for some amorphous reason. A foil to Cam who from all objective measures is absolutely horrible but is SO handsome and affectionate that you have to keep reminding yourself how bad he is when he's not being blatantly terrible.

For me, the distaste is because I get the vibe that he isn't all that he seems/wants to be. He is parroting progressive/feminist ideas he heard in college but he has an underlying entitlement that you can tell is going to come out at some point.

I think he is the classic "nice guy" where he will feel like he is entitled to affection from a woman because he has done and said all the right, feminist-approved things. And he will turn nasty when he doesn't get what he thinks he deserves.

I guess I'm turning into Albie's defender on this thread.

But - what exactly gives you this impression? When did he act entitled to affection? Where have you seen an underlying entitlement?

When he saw Portia flirting with the other guy, I didn't see any anger or entitlement. He kind of just moved on. And seemed completely fine when he ran into her in the hallway in the last episode. He may have been disappointed or felt brushed aside, but that seems kind of normal. I didn't see any sign of underlying anger or was about to turn nasty.

I agree. He was sad. I don’t think he’s an angry guy at all. He’s clueless and naive and inexperienced with the opposite sex and ends up with “damaged, broken” women. Likely a result of his upbringing.

I'm the PP who said I think he will turn nasty. You're right that he hasn't shown an angry side yet. But in his interaction with Portia he was almost reproachful towards her - like she needed to explain why she chose Jack, when really she didn't owe him anything.

That, combined with the fact that the show is focused on the dynamics of sex and power, makes me think he is going to turn resentful and angry, probably after he gets burned by Lucia

Portia was rude by ditching him and he was bummed. That's it. She didn't owe him anything except maybe the courtesy to say her plans had changed, sorry Albie.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can we talk about Ethan actually did cheat. I’m sorry but hiring hookers getting them to your room, undressing, kissing and then crying. GTFO that’s not “doing nothing”. So annoyed by this. Like is actual penetration the line. Is this Bill Clinton train of thinking?

No, he didn't. He behaved badly, but most of it was by being adjacent to Cameron. Ethan is so passive--do you honestly think he was the impetus behind finding the girls, flirting with them, inviting them back to their room, and undressing them? He was just high and drunk and along for the ride. He rejected Mia's overtures.

I get the sense that Ethan is not normally this passive, and that his passive behavior towards Cameron on this trip is a big part of what is unsettling Harper. I think normally, Ethan is probably pretty direct and opinionated (he built and sold a tech business that has made them incredibly rich, he's probably not a pushover). I also bet that normally he and Harper are both kind of caustic and critical of people they think are less intelligent than them. You get glimpses of this. They seem like a couple who was attracted to each other for being curious, intelligent, and aware. They sit in bed and read books and work on their computers. They probably talk about work a lot and love that they both are so good at and interested in their jobs. I get the sense that if the met some random couple on a vacation and that couple was like "we don't vote or read! I love Dateline and we're friends with Jeff Bezos!" Ethan would be right there with Harper in skewering them later that night as vapid and stupid.

But he's not doing that with Cameron and keep suggesting they are "fun". And you can tell Harper is just like "who are you and what did you do with my husband?" Like I just get the sense based on her interactions with him that he is acting VERY unusually. What reads as her being super negative and unpleasant to him is actually her being confused and frustrated because normally they'd cackle about the dump rich couple from dinner and instead he's suddenly defending them. Is it because he's newly rich and wants to be the dumb rich couple? Or is it because he's distracted by this longstanding beef with Cameron that is consuming him and making him withdraw into himself? It's very unclear. But I think normally Ethan would be rolling his eyes right along with Harper and they'd probably bond over their shared sense of superiority. Harper is frustrated that's not happening and it's making her feel very distant from her husband during a huge shift in their financial circumstances due to his job, not hers. And it's making her insecure.

Cameran did him once. The porn is his attempt at self therapy.

I've wondered about this. The scene with Cameron and Ethan in bed, where Cameron is "coming on" to Ethan is played as a joke, but Ethan didn't look amused.

It seemed very weird to me- like beyond a joke.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Albie is so gross

I am kind of confused by the distaste for Albie in this thread. I don't find him distasteful, I actually do find him to be pretty much what you'd want out of a guy? He takes no for an answer, isn't shaming any of the women for their choices. Isn't excusing the bad behavior of the men in his life. I do think he is going to get screwed over by a woman and we will see his true colors but I don't think he's done anything bad and wonder if this is a choice in itself. Showing a non dominant but confident guy who isn't incredibly anything (not incredibly handsome or powerful or anything at all, just very average, but essentially one of the only people making good choices that don't hurt others) but who is unlikeable for some amorphous reason. A foil to Cam who from all objective measures is absolutely horrible but is SO handsome and affectionate that you have to keep reminding yourself how bad he is when he's not being blatantly terrible.

For me, the distaste is because I get the vibe that he isn't all that he seems/wants to be. He is parroting progressive/feminist ideas he heard in college but he has an underlying entitlement that you can tell is going to come out at some point.

I think he is the classic "nice guy" where he will feel like he is entitled to affection from a woman because he has done and said all the right, feminist-approved things. And he will turn nasty when he doesn't get what he thinks he deserves.

I guess I'm turning into Albie's defender on this thread.

But - what exactly gives you this impression? When did he act entitled to affection? Where have you seen an underlying entitlement?

When he saw Portia flirting with the other guy, I didn't see any anger or entitlement. He kind of just moved on. And seemed completely fine when he ran into her in the hallway in the last episode. He may have been disappointed or felt brushed aside, but that seems kind of normal. I didn't see any sign of underlying anger or was about to turn nasty.

I agree. He was sad. I don’t think he’s an angry guy at all. He’s clueless and naive and inexperienced with the opposite sex and ends up with “damaged, broken” women. Likely a result of his upbringing.

I'm the PP who said I think he will turn nasty. You're right that he hasn't shown an angry side yet. But in his interaction with Portia he was almost reproachful towards her - like she needed to explain why she chose Jack, when really she didn't owe him anything.

That, combined with the fact that the show is focused on the dynamics of sex and power, makes me think he is going to turn resentful and angry, probably after he gets burned by Lucia

Portia was rude by ditching him and he was bummed. That's it. She didn't owe him anything except maybe the courtesy to say her plans had changed, sorry Albie.

Which she didn’t do. Men are obligated to respect women’s wishes, but not obligated to be treated badly by them. She treated him badly. Not so badly that she should be punished or anything but badly enough to expect that he likely has some negative feelings about her. I think she was embarrassed by her own behavior which is why she avoided him.

So I guess you’re right, she doesn’t owe him anything other than respect, and he doesn’t owe her anything more than respect. Expressing his irritation isn’t a lack of respect

[Anonymous]

It's amazing to me that women (I'm a woman, ftr) are all over this thread talking about how they don't trust Albie, they think he's a jerk, they don't trust Ethan, he's the worst. But Cameron is far and away the worst guy on the show and hardly anyone calls him out on it. Most of the comments are just about how Theo James is hot. But Cameron is disgusting. Understand if he's cheating as aggressively and flagrantly as we've seen him during this week (with a couple hookers he met in the bar, trying to hook up with Harper right in front of his wife), he's also a TRASH dad and likely has some kind of constantly rotating STDs that he passes onto his wife.

Dom's also a piece of work but at least he is capable of acting like a kind person in the moment even if his big picture behavior is terrible.

But people are focusing in on Albie and Ethan? Okay. Who, by the way, are both incredibly attractive but also NOT cheating a$$holes.

[Anonymous]

I fully agree that out of this lot, Alvie and Ethan are the best guys. Alvie is my favorite. I’m not sure what is up with Ethan’s sexuality. But at least he doesn’t cheat on his wife, unlike Nonno, Dom, and Cameron, and possibly trying to murder her like Greg, or effing about with other men when he’s supposed to be meeting up with me like Essex boy. So Alvie is the best of this bunch imho.

[Anonymous]

Ok, so the gay guy group are scammers right? They’re after Tanya?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can we talk about Ethan actually did cheat. I’m sorry but hiring hookers getting them to your room, undressing, kissing and then crying. GTFO that’s not “doing nothing”. So annoyed by this. Like is actual penetration the line. Is this Bill Clinton train of thinking?

No, he didn't. He behaved badly, but most of it was by being adjacent to Cameron. Ethan is so passive--do you honestly think he was the impetus behind finding the girls, flirting with them, inviting them back to their room, and undressing them? He was just high and drunk and along for the ride. He rejected Mia's overtures.

I get the sense that Ethan is not normally this passive, and that his passive behavior towards Cameron on this trip is a big part of what is unsettling Harper. I think normally, Ethan is probably pretty direct and opinionated (he built and sold a tech business that has made them incredibly rich, he's probably not a pushover). I also bet that normally he and Harper are both kind of caustic and critical of people they think are less intelligent than them. You get glimpses of this. They seem like a couple who was attracted to each other for being curious, intelligent, and aware. They sit in bed and read books and work on their computers. They probably talk about work a lot and love that they both are so good at and interested in their jobs. I get the sense that if the met some random couple on a vacation and that couple was like "we don't vote or read! I love Dateline and we're friends with Jeff Bezos!" Ethan would be right there with Harper in skewering them later that night as vapid and stupid.

But he's not doing that with Cameron and keep suggesting they are "fun". And you can tell Harper is just like "who are you and what did you do with my husband?" Like I just get the sense based on her interactions with him that he is acting VERY unusually. What reads as her being super negative and unpleasant to him is actually her being confused and frustrated because normally they'd cackle about the dump rich couple from dinner and instead he's suddenly defending them. Is it because he's newly rich and wants to be the dumb rich couple? Or is it because he's distracted by this longstanding beef with Cameron that is consuming him and making him withdraw into himself? It's very unclear. But I think normally Ethan would be rolling his eyes right along with Harper and they'd probably bond over their shared sense of superiority. Harper is frustrated that's not happening and it's making her feel very distant from her husband during a huge shift in their financial circumstances due to his job, not hers. And it's making her insecure.

Cameran did him once. The porn is his attempt at self therapy.

I've wondered about this. The scene with Cameron and Ethan in bed, where Cameron is "coming on" to Ethan is played as a joke, but Ethan didn't look amused.

It seemed very weird to me- like beyond a joke.

I believe they have slept together in the past and also that it is possible they may have slept together the evening with Lucia and Mia. They just didn’t show us.

[Anonymous]

Ok, catching up on this show, something from the fourth episode caught my attention.

Early in the episode, Daphne is telling Harper that she doesn't have many female friends and says something like "Well you know girls." And then says they always just want something out of her and then talk about her behind her back.

Then towards the end of the episode, Tanya is telling Portia how much she likes the gay guys and makes a point of saying that she doesn't like women because "most women are drips." She says it's not their fault, they have reasons to be sad, but they are no fun.

It struck me because in both conversations, it's a woman telling another woman how terrible ALL women are. With no sense of self-awareness that they are describing both themselves AND the woman they are talking to. Like Daphne, if all women are self-interested gossips, what does that make you? And Tanya, if all women are depressing drips, what exactly is your deal?

Also, on a personal note, I'm a woman and I couldn't help but think "Yeah, women ARE like that a lot" during both conversations. But I don't consider myself that way.

Anyway, I don't think he show is trying to criticize women, but I do think it's criticizing the way that women tend to be their own biggest critics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think anyone is going to die by suicide. No one is that depressed by their situation.

I think Dom is a good candidate. He’s beginning to realize all that he f’ed up and lost re: family/wife.

Agree. He’s been smoldering with quiet internal anger the last few episodes. He either blows up and kills Lucia or Daphne busts Lucia and Cam finalizing payment and offs her. Her opening scene is too calculated (finding alibi, etc).