Objectively speaking, what harm is caused by illegal immigration? (Thought experiment)

[Anonymous]

Let's say all the undocumented immigrants and asylees and refugees were suddenly, magically removed from the country and replaced by citizens. What would be different? I'm going to assume that these citizens would be employed in the same jobs as this group of people currently is, so I'm not talking about shortages of landscape workers, slaughterhouse workers, ag workers, disaster cleanup workers, and so forth. According to statistics we would have a somewhat higher crime rate. Probably a somewhat higher rate of illegal drug use (migrants are less likely to use drugs). I'm assuming we need the population numbers, including to support the social security retirement program. We might have a larger burden on assistance programs if pay rates for the people who replaced them did not change, but we wouldn't be able to blame immigrants for that. Seriously, I wonder what the actual threat to borders has been. While supposedly Biden opened the borders we didn't have terrorist attacks from people who had slipped through as far as I know.

If in this thought experiment these people were not replaced magically, we would certainly have shortages of healthcare aides, maintenance workers, ag workers, meat processors, roofers, and disaster cleanup workers. Not only would there be fewer people to care for elderly people who need to be cared for, there'd be fewer people paying into Social Security to pay for their retirement income (which, in long term care, usually goes to the LTC facility).

I also wonder about the issue with assimilation. What exactly does that mean? Learning English? Most people who are able to do so to learn English one way or another, but if not, so what? It seems to me most people who complain about lack of assimilation are complaining about language and clothing as the most visible attributes of a population that is not assimilation.

Is it the slippery slope theory? That if a significant number of people manage to cross the border illegally every year and to stay for an extended period of time it will become an uncontrolled avalanche? Would it have been a bad thing if immigration laws had been changed to make immigration much, much more accessible legally and reduce the burden on the systems set up to deal with illegal immigration?

I'm truly trying to consider a blank slate take on this.

[Anonymous]

Trump would have to pay a lot more to get the lawn mowed a Mar A Lago.

[Anonymous]

There is significant cost to school systems for the extra seats, plus extra ESL and other services.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is significant cost to school systems for the extra seats, plus extra ESL and other services.

This was the complaint from neighbors who moved from a different state. The school basically communicated in sort of round about language that the amount of ESL students had overwhelmed special services and so were limited in ability to do much for their child, who was very behind in reading.

In addition, realistically, yes it burdens healthcare costs, particularly if it js a region with a very high population of undocumented, uninsured. Without insurance, folks will defer to emergent care and EMTALA laws require us to treat - which can get complicated for patients that need to be admitted because they have had a stroke, etc. Hospitals cannot discharge someone if the discharge is unsafe. As one example, I worked on a stroke unit where we had a few patients with very long term hospital stays (in one case nearly a year) because they were stabilized, but required considerable care and would need to be in a long term nursing facility. Without a social security number or insurance, could not safely discharge them anywhere so they literally lived in an acute care hospital.

All that saying, some limits make sense, but also, the approach of the current administration with poorly trained ICE officers targeting people based on skin color and accent, shipping them to prison, yeah that is unethical.

Furthermore, I do believe immigration diversity is a strength - incredibly hard workers, great teamwork, innovative ideas, and heck, even diversity of religions means it is easier for different people to take off their various holidays. So my experience with immigration in healthcare work is also very positive - most of the staff I worked with were immigrants (as a white person, I was in the minority in my unit).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is significant cost to school systems for the extra seats, plus extra ESL and other services.

This was the complaint from neighbors who moved from a different state. The school basically communicated in sort of round about language that the amount of ESL students had overwhelmed special services and so were limited in ability to do much for their child, who was very behind in reading.

In addition, realistically, yes it burdens healthcare costs, particularly if it js a region with a very high population of undocumented, uninsured. Without insurance, folks will defer to emergent care and EMTALA laws require us to treat - which can get complicated for patients that need to be admitted because they have had a stroke, etc. Hospitals cannot discharge someone if the discharge is unsafe. As one example, I worked on a stroke unit where we had a few patients with very long term hospital stays (in one case nearly a year) because they were stabilized, but required considerable care and would need to be in a long term nursing facility. Without a social security number or insurance, could not safely discharge them anywhere so they literally lived in an acute care hospital.

All that saying, some limits make sense, but also, the approach of the current administration with poorly trained ICE officers targeting people based on skin color and accent, shipping them to prison, yeah that is unethical.

Furthermore, I do believe immigration diversity is a strength - incredibly hard workers, great teamwork, innovative ideas, and heck, even diversity of religions means it is easier for different people to take off their various holidays. So my experience with immigration in healthcare work is also very positive - most of the staff I worked with were immigrants (as a white person, I was in the minority in my unit).

The point about EMTALA would be moot if all the people involved had status. The problem is not the people but how we choose to treat them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is significant cost to school systems for the extra seats, plus extra ESL and other services.

This was the complaint from neighbors who moved from a different state. The school basically communicated in sort of round about language that the amount of ESL students had overwhelmed special services and so were limited in ability to do much for their child, who was very behind in reading.

In addition, realistically, yes it burdens healthcare costs, particularly if it js a region with a very high population of undocumented, uninsured. Without insurance, folks will defer to emergent care and EMTALA laws require us to treat - which can get complicated for patients that need to be admitted because they have had a stroke, etc. Hospitals cannot discharge someone if the discharge is unsafe. As one example, I worked on a stroke unit where we had a few patients with very long term hospital stays (in one case nearly a year) because they were stabilized, but required considerable care and would need to be in a long term nursing facility. Without a social security number or insurance, could not safely discharge them anywhere so they literally lived in an acute care hospital.

All that saying, some limits make sense, but also, the approach of the current administration with poorly trained ICE officers targeting people based on skin color and accent, shipping them to prison, yeah that is unethical.

Furthermore, I do believe immigration diversity is a strength - incredibly hard workers, great teamwork, innovative ideas, and heck, even diversity of religions means it is easier for different people to take off their various holidays. So my experience with immigration in healthcare work is also very positive - most of the staff I worked with were immigrants (as a white person, I was in the minority in my unit).

The point about EMTALA would be moot if all the people involved had status. The problem is not the people but how we choose to treat them.

I don't have a problem with EMTALA, nor do I want to live in a country without this type of law. My only point here is that with an abundance of patients requiring treatment, which can also mean very expensive kinds of things (eg we are going to intubate if needed, but down the road, this person can no longer walk, needs a tracheostomy, tube feeding, permanent long term care), if we are being honest, this makes it difficult for hospitals to operate. Especially in impoverished areas where the hospital already barely gets appropriately reimbursed for high proportions of medicare/medicaid patients).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is significant cost to school systems for the extra seats, plus extra ESL and other services.

This was the complaint from neighbors who moved from a different state. The school basically communicated in sort of round about language that the amount of ESL students had overwhelmed special services and so were limited in ability to do much for their child, who was very behind in reading.

In addition, realistically, yes it burdens healthcare costs, particularly if it js a region with a very high population of undocumented, uninsured. Without insurance, folks will defer to emergent care and EMTALA laws require us to treat - which can get complicated for patients that need to be admitted because they have had a stroke, etc. Hospitals cannot discharge someone if the discharge is unsafe. As one example, I worked on a stroke unit where we had a few patients with very long term hospital stays (in one case nearly a year) because they were stabilized, but required considerable care and would need to be in a long term nursing facility. Without a social security number or insurance, could not safely discharge them anywhere so they literally lived in an acute care hospital.

All that saying, some limits make sense, but also, the approach of the current administration with poorly trained ICE officers targeting people based on skin color and accent, shipping them to prison, yeah that is unethical.

Furthermore, I do believe immigration diversity is a strength - incredibly hard workers, great teamwork, innovative ideas, and heck, even diversity of religions means it is easier for different people to take off their various holidays. So my experience with immigration in healthcare work is also very positive - most of the staff I worked with were immigrants (as a white person, I was in the minority in my unit).

Interestingly enough, in California, which provides Medicaid to undocumented immigrants, there is less utilization of the emergency room since conditions can be managed at the primary care level. (Overall, 30% to 40% of undocumented immigrants HAVE health insurance through employment.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is significant cost to school systems for the extra seats, plus extra ESL and other services.

What I wonder about is families of English Learners are paying taxes towards those seats. They pay rent and their landlord then pays taxes from that rent, or they own and pay taxes. So, yeah when enrollment goes up, then costs go up, but more people living in an area means more money for the township. My experiences teaching in schools has demonstrated that while yes, EL's need special services, they truly get next to nothing. I mean, I taught in a city school with 500 kids and I was the only EL teacher. 200/500 qualified for services. So, they were getting maybe 30 minutes of push in support each week. It isn't much. Plus,most of the kids who qualify for EL support come from families who are here legally. So, not sure how much money having undocumented folks actually "cost". Plus when you figure in the tremendous amount of economic activity immigrants bring in, the amount of taxes their businesses bring, the amount they pay in stores, etc, I suspect they give more than they take.
I live in Chicago and while everyone knows about Michigan Avenue, many people don't know about 26th Street in Little Village that is the 2nd highest economic generator in the entire state. That area is nearly entirely Spanish speaking with lots of immigrants, documented and undocumented.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is significant cost to school systems for the extra seats, plus extra ESL and other services.

What I wonder about is families of English Learners are paying taxes towards those seats. They pay rent and their landlord then pays taxes from that rent, or they own and pay taxes. So, yeah when enrollment goes up, then costs go up, but more people living in an area means more money for the township. My experiences teaching in schools has demonstrated that while yes, EL's need special services, they truly get next to nothing. I mean, I taught in a city school with 500 kids and I was the only EL teacher. 200/500 qualified for services. So, they were getting maybe 30 minutes of push in support each week. It isn't much. Plus,most of the kids who qualify for EL support come from families who are here legally. So, not sure how much money having undocumented folks actually "cost". Plus when you figure in the tremendous amount of economic activity immigrants bring in, the amount of taxes their businesses bring, the amount they pay in stores, etc, I suspect they give more than they take.
I live in Chicago and while everyone knows about Michigan Avenue, many people don't know about 26th Street in Little Village that is the 2nd highest economic generator in the entire state. That area is nearly entirely Spanish speaking with lots of immigrants, documented and undocumented.

You think their landlords are reporting the income they receive, likely in cash, from illegal aliens? Bless you.

[Anonymous]

Fairfax county public school attendance would shrink by 40%

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is significant cost to school systems for the extra seats, plus extra ESL and other services.

In NYC in the early 20th century a huge percentage of public school children were immigrants or children of immigrants from many different countries. Of course, back then they lumped them all together so it was a real sink or swim situation, and society's educational standards were not what they are now (kids could leave school after 8th grade and get jobs).

But that would be a consideration--educational system challenges due to language. But we need children for future workforce. And as for healthcare, the rest of our healthcare system is not something to brag about in terms of accessibility or outcomes. And this also has to be weighed against the costs of ramped up efforts to secure the border and remove immigrants--not just direct costs for law enforcement, detention facilities, and so on, but the disruption to communities. There's been some studies about long-term negative economic impact in places where major immigration raids have occured in the past, and in California job losses include not just those jobs held by immigrants who have been detailed/deported or afraid to show up to work, but also among citizens.

[Anonymous]

Not all illegal immigrants come here to cut your grass.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/15/us/politics/immigration-terrorism-watch-list.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is significant cost to school systems for the extra seats, plus extra ESL and other services.

What I wonder about is families of English Learners are paying taxes towards those seats. They pay rent and their landlord then pays taxes from that rent, or they own and pay taxes. So, yeah when enrollment goes up, then costs go up, but more people living in an area means more money for the township. My experiences teaching in schools has demonstrated that while yes, EL's need special services, they truly get next to nothing. I mean, I taught in a city school with 500 kids and I was the only EL teacher. 200/500 qualified for services. So, they were getting maybe 30 minutes of push in support each week. It isn't much. Plus,most of the kids who qualify for EL support come from families who are here legally. So, not sure how much money having undocumented folks actually "cost". Plus when you figure in the tremendous amount of economic activity immigrants bring in, the amount of taxes their businesses bring, the amount they pay in stores, etc, I suspect they give more than they take.
I live in Chicago and while everyone knows about Michigan Avenue, many people don't know about 26th Street in Little Village that is the 2nd highest economic generator in the entire state. That area is nearly entirely Spanish speaking with lots of immigrants, documented and undocumented.

You think their landlords are reporting the income they receive, likely in cash, from illegal aliens? Bless you.

Even to the extent your opinion is supportable, that's still cash into the economy which generates further economic activity which generates additional taxes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is significant cost to school systems for the extra seats, plus extra ESL and other services.

What I wonder about is families of English Learners are paying taxes towards those seats. They pay rent and their landlord then pays taxes from that rent, or they own and pay taxes. So, yeah when enrollment goes up, then costs go up, but more people living in an area means more money for the township. My experiences teaching in schools has demonstrated that while yes, EL's need special services, they truly get next to nothing. I mean, I taught in a city school with 500 kids and I was the only EL teacher. 200/500 qualified for services. So, they were getting maybe 30 minutes of push in support each week. It isn't much. Plus,most of the kids who qualify for EL support come from families who are here legally. So, not sure how much money having undocumented folks actually "cost". Plus when you figure in the tremendous amount of economic activity immigrants bring in, the amount of taxes their businesses bring, the amount they pay in stores, etc, I suspect they give more than they take.
I live in Chicago and while everyone knows about Michigan Avenue, many people don't know about 26th Street in Little Village that is the 2nd highest economic generator in the entire state. That area is nearly entirely Spanish speaking with lots of immigrants, documented and undocumented.

You think their landlords are reporting the income they receive, likely in cash, from illegal aliens? Bless you.

The landlords still have to pay property taxes, whether they report the rent as income or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is significant cost to school systems for the extra seats, plus extra ESL and other services.

What I wonder about is families of English Learners are paying taxes towards those seats. They pay rent and their landlord then pays taxes from that rent, or they own and pay taxes. So, yeah when enrollment goes up, then costs go up, but more people living in an area means more money for the township. My experiences teaching in schools has demonstrated that while yes, EL's need special services, they truly get next to nothing. I mean, I taught in a city school with 500 kids and I was the only EL teacher. 200/500 qualified for services. So, they were getting maybe 30 minutes of push in support each week. It isn't much. Plus,most of the kids who qualify for EL support come from families who are here legally. So, not sure how much money having undocumented folks actually "cost". Plus when you figure in the tremendous amount of economic activity immigrants bring in, the amount of taxes their businesses bring, the amount they pay in stores, etc, I suspect they give more than they take.
I live in Chicago and while everyone knows about Michigan Avenue, many people don't know about 26th Street in Little Village that is the 2nd highest economic generator in the entire state. That area is nearly entirely Spanish speaking with lots of immigrants, documented and undocumented.

I'd be interested in knowing more about best ideas for ESL teaching, I'm vaguely aware of different opinions as to how best to do this. Where I used to live in the midwest, Hispanic population grew a great deal a few decades ago as itinerant Spanish speaking farmworkers were mechanized out of their ag jobs and stayed permanently. They started a Spanish immersion program at one elementary school that attracted both immigrant and non-immigrant families, and the program has become increasingly popular among non-immigrant families, so there is an elementary school that is 100% Spanish immersion.