Objectively speaking, what harm is caused by illegal immigration? (Thought experiment)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll tell you what’s good about illegal immigration

They make good food

They clean houses, office buildings, hotel rooms, restaurants, schools

They have cleaned my house in particular for over 10 years

They pick produce

They do my landscaping

They helped clean out my house after a hurricane

They put my roof on

They groom my pets

They make excellent food and serve and deliver it

They do laundry

They do your nails and wax you

They drive Ubers and taxis

And a thousand other things

Harassing underdocumented immigrants and making them afraid to go to work is why food prices and the prices of everything are going up everywhere.

Yikes, this is so ugly. I think you’re trying to be helpful but to me this looks like you just want servants.

Calling this ‘wanting servants’ misses the point entirely. Immigrants aren’t props in anyone’s household; they’re the backbone of entire industries. Agriculture, construction, logistics, food service, elder care, hospitality, transportation… the list is long because our economy genuinely depends on their labor. Acknowledging that reality isn’t ugly, demeaning or "wanting servants"; pretending it doesn’t exist is what's ugly and demeaning.

People like this are why democrats lose

Exploitation of labor

The conservative in me thinks addressing this issue (deporting them) would lead to higher wages and better benefits in the ag sector, which attracts more domestic workers to work in ag. It also would increase investment in mechanization and automation. There will be a time of higher costs increased food prices but when things settle, they should stabilize.

However, on a broader level, I find this entire situation absurd. The United States has become far too reliant on migrant labor, having half of the agricultural workforce undocumented. We need to ask ourselves why this is the case. It ain’t because this is "work Americans won't do". It's entirely because, for over 40 years, corporations have been allowed to exploit cheap imported labor, keeping wages for these jobs disgustingly low sometimes even below the federal minimum wage.

There are plenty of Americans who would be willing to do this work, but not for $12 an hour under the sweltering sun of Texas. Offer $30 an hour plus benefits to harvest lettuce, and you would see plenty of people lining up for those jobs. The problem lies in the fact that neither Democrats nor Republicans have taken meaningful action for decades. BOTH sides have allowed "big ag" to exploit these workers, paying pennies per box harvested perpetuating this cycle of exploitation, and doing so in such a way that if it were to ever dare end, suddenly panic, omg, our foods gonna rot and we're all gonna die of starvation because we cant afford food! They have caught you in this line of thinking, so they will always get their cheap, exploitive labor.

In my opinion, the widespread abuse of migrant labor over the past four decades is a shameful stain on this country. But, just like iPhones and Nike shoes, most people turn a blind eye to the unethical labor practices behind the products they want, so long as the price is low. Just look at these posts: concerns about "rotting crops" and "skyrocketing prices", and not a single care about the exploitation of these workers. This has been ignored for decades and now that there's a policy threatens to send them home, we just get all up in arms because we might have to pay more.

It’s almost like saying that an economy can’t survive without illegal & low or no cost labor to farm the land.

You know who else used that argument?

The Confederacy during the Civil War.

Let that sink in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll tell you what’s good about illegal immigration

They make good food

They clean houses, office buildings, hotel rooms, restaurants, schools

They have cleaned my house in particular for over 10 years

They pick produce

They do my landscaping

They helped clean out my house after a hurricane

They put my roof on

They groom my pets

They make excellent food and serve and deliver it

They do laundry

They do your nails and wax you

They drive Ubers and taxis

And a thousand other things

Harassing underdocumented immigrants and making them afraid to go to work is why food prices and the prices of everything are going up everywhere.

Yikes, this is so ugly. I think you’re trying to be helpful but to me this looks like you just want servants.

+1 Cheap servants

Bingo , what elites want …

A persistent argument in immigration debates centers on the idea that immigrant labor is “essential” because immigrants take on jobs that native-born Americans are simply unwilling to do. However, a detailed analysis of U.S. workforce data by Jason Richwine at the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) challenges this widely held belief, suggesting the narrative doesn't align with the reality of the labor market.

https://cis.org/Report/Jobs-Americans-Will-Do-Just-About-All-Them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll tell you what’s good about illegal immigration

They make good food

They clean houses, office buildings, hotel rooms, restaurants, schools

They have cleaned my house in particular for over 10 years

They pick produce

They do my landscaping

They helped clean out my house after a hurricane

They put my roof on

They groom my pets

They make excellent food and serve and deliver it

They do laundry

They do your nails and wax you

They drive Ubers and taxis

And a thousand other things

Harassing underdocumented immigrants and making them afraid to go to work is why food prices and the prices of everything are going up everywhere.

Yikes, this is so ugly. I think you’re trying to be helpful but to me this looks like you just want servants.

Calling this ‘wanting servants’ misses the point entirely. Immigrants aren’t props in anyone’s household; they’re the backbone of entire industries. Agriculture, construction, logistics, food service, elder care, hospitality, transportation… the list is long because our economy genuinely depends on their labor. Acknowledging that reality isn’t ugly, demeaning or "wanting servants"; pretending it doesn’t exist is what's ugly and demeaning.

People like this are why democrats lose

Exploitation of labor

The conservative in me thinks addressing this issue (deporting them) would lead to higher wages and better benefits in the ag sector, which attracts more domestic workers to work in ag. It also would increase investment in mechanization and automation. There will be a time of higher costs increased food prices but when things settle, they should stabilize.

However, on a broader level, I find this entire situation absurd. The United States has become far too reliant on migrant labor, having half of the agricultural workforce undocumented. We need to ask ourselves why this is the case. It ain’t because this is "work Americans won't do". It's entirely because, for over 40 years, corporations have been allowed to exploit cheap imported labor, keeping wages for these jobs disgustingly low sometimes even below the federal minimum wage.

There are plenty of Americans who would be willing to do this work, but not for $12 an hour under the sweltering sun of Texas. Offer $30 an hour plus benefits to harvest lettuce, and you would see plenty of people lining up for those jobs. The problem lies in the fact that neither Democrats nor Republicans have taken meaningful action for decades. BOTH sides have allowed "big ag" to exploit these workers, paying pennies per box harvested perpetuating this cycle of exploitation, and doing so in such a way that if it were to ever dare end, suddenly panic, omg, our foods gonna rot and we're all gonna die of starvation because we cant afford food! They have caught you in this line of thinking, so they will always get their cheap, exploitive labor.

In my opinion, the widespread abuse of migrant labor over the past four decades is a shameful stain on this country. But, just like iPhones and Nike shoes, most people turn a blind eye to the unethical labor practices behind the products they want, so long as the price is low. Just look at these posts: concerns about "rotting crops" and "skyrocketing prices", and not a single care about the exploitation of these workers. This has been ignored for decades and now that there's a policy threatens to send them home, we just get all up in arms because we might have to pay more.

It’s almost like saying that an economy can’t survive without illegal & low or no cost labor to farm the land.

You know who else used that argument?

The Confederacy during the Civil War.

Let that sink in.

+1 As a lower middle class family in the 70s, we always had some sort of meat on the table. It was affordable back then while people were paid decently to do the work. It's the CEOs who are pocketing it. It's the same at my tech firm. People haven't seen raises in years while the CEO and execs walk away with more millions each year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say all the undocumented immigrants and asylees and refugees were suddenly, magically removed from the country and replaced by citizens. What would be different? I'm going to assume that these citizens would be employed in the same jobs as this group of people currently is, so I'm not talking about shortages of landscape workers, slaughterhouse workers, ag workers, disaster cleanup workers, and so forth. According to statistics we would have a somewhat higher crime rate. Probably a somewhat higher rate of illegal drug use (migrants are less likely to use drugs). I'm assuming we need the population numbers, including to support the social security retirement program. We might have a larger burden on assistance programs if pay rates for the people who replaced them did not change, but we wouldn't be able to blame immigrants for that. Seriously, I wonder what the actual threat to borders has been. While supposedly Biden opened the borders we didn't have terrorist attacks from people who had slipped through as far as I know.

If in this thought experiment these people were not replaced magically, we would certainly have shortages of healthcare aides, maintenance workers, ag workers, meat processors, roofers, and disaster cleanup workers. Not only would there be fewer people to care for elderly people who need to be cared for, there'd be fewer people paying into Social Security to pay for their retirement income (which, in long term care, usually goes to the LTC facility).

I also wonder about the issue with assimilation. What exactly does that mean? Learning English? Most people who are able to do so to learn English one way or another, but if not, so what? It seems to me most people who complain about lack of assimilation are complaining about language and clothing as the most visible attributes of a population that is not assimilation.

Is it the slippery slope theory? That if a significant number of people manage to cross the border illegally every year and to stay for an extended period of time it will become an uncontrolled avalanche? Would it have been a bad thing if immigration laws had been changed to make immigration much, much more accessible legally and reduce the burden on the systems set up to deal with illegal immigration?

I'm truly trying to consider a blank slate take on this.

Meatpacking used to be a stable, middle-class union job, with multiple generations of families working at the same plant. In 1960, the industry was 95% unionized, paying wages that were comparable to those in the auto and steel industries. Meatpacking was skilled labor. A meatpacker was trained like an old-fashioned butcher to take an animal from slaughter to final cuts.

In the 1960s, a company called IBP (Iowa Beef Packers) figured out that you didn't need skilled labor if you didn't care about your workers. Instead of workers doing a variety of jobs, IBP had workers do one cut all day long, maybe separate the hind quarter from the carcass, or slice a single cut of steak.

Meatpacking wages across the industry stayed high through the early 1980s, but then started to fall, as more companies adopted the IBP method. After all, anyone could be trained to do a single cut. By the mid-80s, wages had plunged and unions were disappearing. It was a race to the bottom and meatpacking was quickly becoming the worst job in America.

One reason it was now so awful, was that the IBP method resulted in a huge rise in repetitive stress injuries and debilitating knife cuts caused by inattention and fatigue. Doing one cut all day long on a speeding factory line was good for corporate profits but disastrously bad for actual humans.

Today, Places like Tyson Chicken and Smithfield Ham need an endless supply of 3rd world immigrants to keep wages low and unions busted, but also because it's a job that destroys the human body and spirit. Even if you're not injured, the work is so grueling that most immigrants can only do it for a couple of years before they move on. That's why you'll see that the ethnic composition of rural meatpacking towns goes through successive waves of foreigners-- Mexicans, Somalis, Sudanese, Guatemalans, Haitians-- as each group gets brought in and burned out, while management goes looking for another group of suckers.

Shutting down the immigration pipeline and deporting the illegals will go a long way to restoring the balance between workers and corporations. Likewise, we need to go back to a system with lots of small-scale regional meat processors staffed by skilled workers, something that will require breaking up these abusive corporations and overhauling the USDA inspection program.

Yes, prices of meat will certainly rise, but you already shouldn't be eating factory-farmed meat and you shouldn't be patronizing corporations that are actively wrecking America.

This +100

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll tell you what’s good about illegal immigration

They make good food

They clean houses, office buildings, hotel rooms, restaurants, schools

They have cleaned my house in particular for over 10 years

They pick produce

They do my landscaping

They helped clean out my house after a hurricane

They put my roof on

They groom my pets

They make excellent food and serve and deliver it

They do laundry

They do your nails and wax you

They drive Ubers and taxis

And a thousand other things

Harassing underdocumented immigrants and making them afraid to go to work is why food prices and the prices of everything are going up everywhere.

Yikes, this is so ugly. I think you’re trying to be helpful but to me this looks like you just want servants.

Calling this ‘wanting servants’ misses the point entirely. Immigrants aren’t props in anyone’s household; they’re the backbone of entire industries. Agriculture, construction, logistics, food service, elder care, hospitality, transportation… the list is long because our economy genuinely depends on their labor. Acknowledging that reality isn’t ugly, demeaning or "wanting servants"; pretending it doesn’t exist is what's ugly and demeaning.

People like this are why democrats lose

Exploitation of labor

The conservative in me thinks addressing this issue (deporting them) would lead to higher wages and better benefits in the ag sector, which attracts more domestic workers to work in ag. It also would increase investment in mechanization and automation. There will be a time of higher costs increased food prices but when things settle, they should stabilize.

However, on a broader level, I find this entire situation absurd. The United States has become far too reliant on migrant labor, having half of the agricultural workforce undocumented. We need to ask ourselves why this is the case. It ain’t because this is "work Americans won't do". It's entirely because, for over 40 years, corporations have been allowed to exploit cheap imported labor, keeping wages for these jobs disgustingly low sometimes even below the federal minimum wage.

There are plenty of Americans who would be willing to do this work, but not for $12 an hour under the sweltering sun of Texas. Offer $30 an hour plus benefits to harvest lettuce, and you would see plenty of people lining up for those jobs. The problem lies in the fact that neither Democrats nor Republicans have taken meaningful action for decades. BOTH sides have allowed "big ag" to exploit these workers, paying pennies per box harvested perpetuating this cycle of exploitation, and doing so in such a way that if it were to ever dare end, suddenly panic, omg, our foods gonna rot and we're all gonna die of starvation because we cant afford food! They have caught you in this line of thinking, so they will always get their cheap, exploitive labor.

In my opinion, the widespread abuse of migrant labor over the past four decades is a shameful stain on this country. But, just like iPhones and Nike shoes, most people turn a blind eye to the unethical labor practices behind the products they want, so long as the price is low. Just look at these posts: concerns about "rotting crops" and "skyrocketing prices", and not a single care about the exploitation of these workers. This has been ignored for decades and now that there's a policy threatens to send them home, we just get all up in arms because we might have to pay more.

It’s almost like saying that an economy can’t survive without illegal & low or no cost labor to farm the land.

You know who else used that argument?

The Confederacy during the Civil War.

Let that sink in.

Agreed. The argument is very similar to the one made by the Confederacy. “We have to do it this way; that cotton is not going to pick itself.” It’s a disgusting and unethical approach to capitalism. Pay a living wage and/or develop better technologies. If you can’t swing that then learn to live without so much cotton (or whatever other product you think requires human suffering and exploitation).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Whether legal or illegal, it isn’t good for us to just open the floodgates and let whoever wants to gush in. It needs to be a measured flow, and sadly that means not everyone will be able to come.

Levels must be controlled in order not to strain resources. Too many new workers at once put downward pressure on wages and standards.

Also, I do not want us to become like London.
We are a diverse control but we do share culture and values and it’s not good to have people coming in who have no interest in assimilating.

We already have millions of new or recent immigrants who have no interest in assimilation of any kind. It’s a stark contrast to the immigrants of longer ago that made the U.S. the “melting pot”. We haven’t been melting in decades. The immigrants from different regions and countries are not mingling at all either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll tell you what’s good about illegal immigration

They make good food

They clean houses, office buildings, hotel rooms, restaurants, schools

They have cleaned my house in particular for over 10 years

They pick produce

They do my landscaping

They helped clean out my house after a hurricane

They put my roof on

They groom my pets

They make excellent food and serve and deliver it

They do laundry

They do your nails and wax you

They drive Ubers and taxis

And a thousand other things

Harassing underdocumented immigrants and making them afraid to go to work is why food prices and the prices of everything are going up everywhere.

Yikes, this is so ugly. I think you’re trying to be helpful but to me this looks like you just want servants.

Calling this ‘wanting servants’ misses the point entirely. Immigrants aren’t props in anyone’s household; they’re the backbone of entire industries. Agriculture, construction, logistics, food service, elder care, hospitality, transportation… the list is long because our economy genuinely depends on their labor. Acknowledging that reality isn’t ugly, demeaning or "wanting servants"; pretending it doesn’t exist is what's ugly and demeaning.

People like this are why democrats lose

Exploitation of labor

The conservative in me thinks addressing this issue (deporting them) would lead to higher wages and better benefits in the ag sector, which attracts more domestic workers to work in ag. It also would increase investment in mechanization and automation. There will be a time of higher costs increased food prices but when things settle, they should stabilize.

However, on a broader level, I find this entire situation absurd. The United States has become far too reliant on migrant labor, having half of the agricultural workforce undocumented. We need to ask ourselves why this is the case. It ain’t because this is "work Americans won't do". It's entirely because, for over 40 years, corporations have been allowed to exploit cheap imported labor, keeping wages for these jobs disgustingly low sometimes even below the federal minimum wage.

There are plenty of Americans who would be willing to do this work, but not for $12 an hour under the sweltering sun of Texas. Offer $30 an hour plus benefits to harvest lettuce, and you would see plenty of people lining up for those jobs. The problem lies in the fact that neither Democrats nor Republicans have taken meaningful action for decades. BOTH sides have allowed "big ag" to exploit these workers, paying pennies per box harvested perpetuating this cycle of exploitation, and doing so in such a way that if it were to ever dare end, suddenly panic, omg, our foods gonna rot and we're all gonna die of starvation because we cant afford food! They have caught you in this line of thinking, so they will always get their cheap, exploitive labor.

In my opinion, the widespread abuse of migrant labor over the past four decades is a shameful stain on this country. But, just like iPhones and Nike shoes, most people turn a blind eye to the unethical labor practices behind the products they want, so long as the price is low. Just look at these posts: concerns about "rotting crops" and "skyrocketing prices", and not a single care about the exploitation of these workers. This has been ignored for decades and now that there's a policy threatens to send them home, we just get all up in arms because we might have to pay more.

It’s almost like saying that an economy can’t survive without illegal & low or no cost labor to farm the land.

You know who else used that argument?

The Confederacy during the Civil War.

Let that sink in.

I totally agree with you. The deeper issue isn't being "run over by illegals" nor is it "valuing human life" (but not really valuing it when we don't pay people enough to survive. Yes, we need to start demanding that farms start paying people $30 an hour with full health benefits, subsidized through the federal government. Yes, food prices would rise dramatically. Dramatically. I don't believe they'd stabilize THAT much. But I'd be we'd all stop throwing away uneaten food. I don't know how most people would afford food, but that would be something that could be dealt with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Whether legal or illegal, it isn’t good for us to just open the floodgates and let whoever wants to gush in. It needs to be a measured flow, and sadly that means not everyone will be able to come.

Levels must be controlled in order not to strain resources. Too many new workers at once put downward pressure on wages and standards.

Also, I do not want us to become like London.
We are a diverse control but we do share culture and values and it’s not good to have people coming in who have no interest in assimilating.

We already have millions of new or recent immigrants who have no interest in assimilation of any kind. It’s a stark contrast to the immigrants of longer ago that made the U.S. the “melting pot”. We haven’t been melting in decades. The immigrants from different regions and countries are not mingling at all either.

Perhaps there is some fear of assimilation and some fear of mingling stopping people. But I think that street goes both ways. There's a lot of white flight from public schools, neighborhoods, churches, etc. Yeah, maybe new immigrants need to try a little harder, but I'd say so do all of us. I work with refugees and they LOVE getting to know people outside their circle, but it is hard for them to make connections.

[Anonymous]

I think this viewpoint of paying Americans much more to do farm work is a missing piece in this conversation and one most of us can agree on. This is what we need to talk about. And paying people more to wait tables, cook food, clean homes, nanny, etc. Everyone says childcare is so expensive and hard to find, and it is. But if we directed our governmental resources as a priority, and we paid childcare workers $30 an hour at centers with full benefits too, there'd be no shortage. People would have to pay more, and the government would also have to subsidize. My guess is this would lead to more SAHP, because at a certain point, who is going to pay $4k a month for one kid in daycare? But maybe that's inevitable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Whether legal or illegal, it isn’t good for us to just open the floodgates and let whoever wants to gush in. It needs to be a measured flow, and sadly that means not everyone will be able to come.

Levels must be controlled in order not to strain resources. Too many new workers at once put downward pressure on wages and standards.

Also, I do not want us to become like London.
We are a diverse control but we do share culture and values and it’s not good to have people coming in who have no interest in assimilating.

We already have millions of new or recent immigrants who have no interest in assimilation of any kind. It’s a stark contrast to the immigrants of longer ago that made the U.S. the “melting pot”. We haven’t been melting in decades. The immigrants from different regions and countries are not mingling at all either.

Do you really think that is what it was like long ago? That nobody lived in communities with people from the same background, continued to speak their native languages, attended churches with people from the same backgrounds, etc? Could it be that it takes a couple of generations for that to happen?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll tell you what’s good about illegal immigration

They make good food

They clean houses, office buildings, hotel rooms, restaurants, schools

They have cleaned my house in particular for over 10 years

They pick produce

They do my landscaping

They helped clean out my house after a hurricane

They put my roof on

They groom my pets

They make excellent food and serve and deliver it

They do laundry

They do your nails and wax you

They drive Ubers and taxis

And a thousand other things

Harassing underdocumented immigrants and making them afraid to go to work is why food prices and the prices of everything are going up everywhere.

Yikes, this is so ugly. I think you’re trying to be helpful but to me this looks like you just want servants.

Calling this ‘wanting servants’ misses the point entirely. Immigrants aren’t props in anyone’s household; they’re the backbone of entire industries. Agriculture, construction, logistics, food service, elder care, hospitality, transportation… the list is long because our economy genuinely depends on their labor. Acknowledging that reality isn’t ugly, demeaning or "wanting servants"; pretending it doesn’t exist is what's ugly and demeaning.

People like this are why democrats lose

Exploitation of labor

The conservative in me thinks addressing this issue (deporting them) would lead to higher wages and better benefits in the ag sector, which attracts more domestic workers to work in ag. It also would increase investment in mechanization and automation. There will be a time of higher costs increased food prices but when things settle, they should stabilize.

However, on a broader level, I find this entire situation absurd. The United States has become far too reliant on migrant labor, having half of the agricultural workforce undocumented. We need to ask ourselves why this is the case. It ain’t because this is "work Americans won't do". It's entirely because, for over 40 years, corporations have been allowed to exploit cheap imported labor, keeping wages for these jobs disgustingly low sometimes even below the federal minimum wage.

There are plenty of Americans who would be willing to do this work, but not for $12 an hour under the sweltering sun of Texas. Offer $30 an hour plus benefits to harvest lettuce, and you would see plenty of people lining up for those jobs. The problem lies in the fact that neither Democrats nor Republicans have taken meaningful action for decades. BOTH sides have allowed "big ag" to exploit these workers, paying pennies per box harvested perpetuating this cycle of exploitation, and doing so in such a way that if it were to ever dare end, suddenly panic, omg, our foods gonna rot and we're all gonna die of starvation because we cant afford food! They have caught you in this line of thinking, so they will always get their cheap, exploitive labor.

In my opinion, the widespread abuse of migrant labor over the past four decades is a shameful stain on this country. But, just like iPhones and Nike shoes, most people turn a blind eye to the unethical labor practices behind the products they want, so long as the price is low. Just look at these posts: concerns about "rotting crops" and "skyrocketing prices", and not a single care about the exploitation of these workers. This has been ignored for decades and now that there's a policy threatens to send them home, we just get all up in arms because we might have to pay more.

It’s almost like saying that an economy can’t survive without illegal & low or no cost labor to farm the land.

You know who else used that argument?

The Confederacy during the Civil War.

Let that sink in.

+100. Well said. I’m so glad someone else sees that these are all issue decades in the making with neither party ever having been willing to fix it, or compel anyone to abide by our existing laws.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say all the undocumented immigrants and asylees and refugees were suddenly, magically removed from the country and replaced by citizens. What would be different? I'm going to assume that these citizens would be employed in the same jobs as this group of people currently is, so I'm not talking about shortages of landscape workers, slaughterhouse workers, ag workers, disaster cleanup workers, and so forth. According to statistics we would have a somewhat higher crime rate. Probably a somewhat higher rate of illegal drug use (migrants are less likely to use drugs). I'm assuming we need the population numbers, including to support the social security retirement program. We might have a larger burden on assistance programs if pay rates for the people who replaced them did not change, but we wouldn't be able to blame immigrants for that. Seriously, I wonder what the actual threat to borders has been. While supposedly Biden opened the borders we didn't have terrorist attacks from people who had slipped through as far as I know.

If in this thought experiment these people were not replaced magically, we would certainly have shortages of healthcare aides, maintenance workers, ag workers, meat processors, roofers, and disaster cleanup workers. Not only would there be fewer people to care for elderly people who need to be cared for, there'd be fewer people paying into Social Security to pay for their retirement income (which, in long term care, usually goes to the LTC facility).

I also wonder about the issue with assimilation. What exactly does that mean? Learning English? Most people who are able to do so to learn English one way or another, but if not, so what? It seems to me most people who complain about lack of assimilation are complaining about language and clothing as the most visible attributes of a population that is not assimilation.

Is it the slippery slope theory? That if a significant number of people manage to cross the border illegally every year and to stay for an extended period of time it will become an uncontrolled avalanche? Would it have been a bad thing if immigration laws had been changed to make immigration much, much more accessible legally and reduce the burden on the systems set up to deal with illegal immigration?

I'm truly trying to consider a blank slate take on this.

Meatpacking used to be a stable, middle-class union job, with multiple generations of families working at the same plant. In 1960, the industry was 95% unionized, paying wages that were comparable to those in the auto and steel industries. Meatpacking was skilled labor. A meatpacker was trained like an old-fashioned butcher to take an animal from slaughter to final cuts.

In the 1960s, a company called IBP (Iowa Beef Packers) figured out that you didn't need skilled labor if you didn't care about your workers. Instead of workers doing a variety of jobs, IBP had workers do one cut all day long, maybe separate the hind quarter from the carcass, or slice a single cut of steak.

Meatpacking wages across the industry stayed high through the early 1980s, but then started to fall, as more companies adopted the IBP method. After all, anyone could be trained to do a single cut. By the mid-80s, wages had plunged and unions were disappearing. It was a race to the bottom and meatpacking was quickly becoming the worst job in America.

One reason it was now so awful, was that the IBP method resulted in a huge rise in repetitive stress injuries and debilitating knife cuts caused by inattention and fatigue. Doing one cut all day long on a speeding factory line was good for corporate profits but disastrously bad for actual humans.

Today, Places like Tyson Chicken and Smithfield Ham need an endless supply of 3rd world immigrants to keep wages low and unions busted, but also because it's a job that destroys the human body and spirit. Even if you're not injured, the work is so grueling that most immigrants can only do it for a couple of years before they move on. That's why you'll see that the ethnic composition of rural meatpacking towns goes through successive waves of foreigners-- Mexicans, Somalis, Sudanese, Guatemalans, Haitians-- as each group gets brought in and burned out, while management goes looking for another group of suckers.

Shutting down the immigration pipeline and deporting the illegals will go a long way to restoring the balance between workers and corporations. Likewise, we need to go back to a system with lots of small-scale regional meat processors staffed by skilled workers, something that will require breaking up these abusive corporations and overhauling the USDA inspection program.

Yes, prices of meat will certainly rise, but you already shouldn't be eating factory-farmed meat and you shouldn't be patronizing corporations that are actively wrecking America.

This +100

Then how are people supposed to get the cheap protein to counteract the GLP1s they must take for life?

[Anonymous]

This video sums it up who will clean the toilets?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’ll tell you what’s good about illegal immigration

They make good food

They clean houses, office buildings, hotel rooms, restaurants, schools

They have cleaned my house in particular for over 10 years

They pick produce

They do my landscaping

They helped clean out my house after a hurricane

They put my roof on

They groom my pets

They make excellent food and serve and deliver it

They do laundry

They do your nails and wax you

They drive Ubers and taxis

And a thousand other things

Harassing underdocumented immigrants and making them afraid to go to work is why food prices and the prices of everything are going up everywhere.

I don't think that a typical person who supports illegal immigration would be as tone deaf as this comes across. I read it more closely and clearly it is a conservative expressing sarcasm or satire on how liberals think. but he's not wrong.

[Anonymous]

Is OP that disconnected that they can’t imagine any negatives to illegal immigration?

First they definitely depress wages. Maybe not for OP but for low skilled labor. Keeps your restaurant bill low because the wages of the back room staff is lower then if they had to compete for a more limited supply of citizen labor. Great for OP, not so great for the local restaurant labor force. Democrats used to be very much against mass immigration (union proud) then they flipped from their working class roots.

How about housing? Maybe not in OP’s neighborhood but in someone else’s. And not just price but also quality as the neighborhood gets more crowded. Schools are underfunded because illegal immigrants don’t bring in enough taxes plus their kids require additional ESL services which have a cost. OP, imagine a scenario where each house in your single family home neighborhood magically added an illegal family. Does your quality of life decline? Will the school budget get stressed? How about local infrastructure, traffic, sewers…and who pays? This actually happens in some lower income neighborhoods and it effects them.