If Jesus wasn’t a real historical figure, where did Christian theology come from?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very, very people doubt Jesus as a historical figure (which is entirely separate from Christianity).

Virtually all non-Christians recognize that such a person existed, much in the way that Cleopatra, Napoleon, Aristotle, Shakespeare, Gandhi, or any number of other historical figures existed. And then died as the 100% mortals they were.

This is me. I believe he was a historical figure, yes, perhaps even a high functioning person (for his times), but with highly exaggerated abilities and story. I believe it was done by those in power over the centuries to control the masses.

wtf (what the fudge) is a “high functioning person?”

m

A healer who could quickly figure out the right herbs to treat you? A good public speaker? Someone who could settle disputes well and peacefully? A natural born leader? Basically someone who rose to prominence because he was good at things. So people started worshiping him, the way modern day society revers celebrities, CEOs, presidents etc.

Link to evidence Jesus used herbs to heal or treat people?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://ehrmanblog.org/gospel-evidence-that-jesus-existed/

Here’s Bart:

Jesus existed. In yesterday’s post, I began to show how Jesus is the best attested Palestinian Jew of the first century if we look only at external evidence.

But how can you make a convincing case [that someone made up Jesus] if we’re talking about thirty or so independent sources that know there was a man Jesus? These sources are not all living in the same village someplace so they are egging each other on. They didn’t compare notes. They are independent of one another and are scattered throughout the Mediterranean. They each have heard about the man Jesus from their own sources of information, which heard about him from their own sources of information.

That must mean that there were hundreds of people at the least who were talking about the man Jesus. One of them was the apostle Paul, who was talking about Jesus by at least the year 32 CE, that is, two years after the date of Jesus’ death.

Paul, as I will point out, actually knew, personally, Jesus’ own brother James and his closest disciples Peter and John. That’s [by itself] more or less a death knell for the Mythicist position, as some of them admit.

(Still Bart talking) Short story: we are not talking about a Bart Ehrman Jesus figure invented in the year 60. There was widespread information about Jesus from the years after his death. Otherwise, you can’t explain all the literary evidence (dozens of independent sources), some of it based on Aramaic traditions of Jesus’ homeland.

If we're taking scripture at its word, then are we drawing a line somewhere when historical evidence refutes it? Or are we just taking scripture as fact because enough people in scripture said it?

Bumping because, yeah... Are we just saying that if enough people said something, it's true? Even the antisemitic lie that the Jews killed Jesus? Because that's where this leads.

No, we are discussing the fact that every historian and scholar and academic in the western world has examined the facts and all agree Jesus existed as a man who walked the earth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Virtually all scholars of antiquity accept that Jesus was a historical figure.

Most theological historians, Christian and non-Christian alike, believe that Jesus really did walk the Earth.

While historians and scholars abound who doubt Jesus performed miracles, literally over 99.9% of them (and 100% of relevantly credentialed professors) believe he existed. See examples of experts commenting on the status in their own field:

Paul Maier (Ancient history professor at Western Michigan): “Open nearly any text in ancient history of Western civilization used widely in colleges and universities today, and you will find a generally sympathetic, if compressed, version of Jesus' life, which ends with some variation of the statement that he was crucified by Pontius Pilate and died as a result. No ranking historian anywhere in the world shares the ultimate criticism voiced by German philosopher Bruno Bauer in the last century, that Jesus was a myth, that he never lived in fact.” [“Christianity Today”, XIX (1975): 63.]

Michael Grant (Atheist professor at Edinburgh, Classicist): “To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ-myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first-rank scholars'. In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary.” [Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels (Simon & Schuster, 1992.] (Approvingly citing Otto Betz)

Richard Burridge (Biblical exegesis professor at King's College, Classicist): “There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church’s imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more.” [Jesus, Now and Then (Wm. B. Eerdmans, 2004), 34.]

Robert Van Voorst (NT professor at Western Theological): “The nonhistoricity [of Jesus] thesis has always been controversial… Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.” [Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence (Wm. B. Eerdmans, 2000), 16.]

Craig Evans (NT professor at Asbury; Founder of Dead Sea Scrolls Inst.): “No serious historian of any religious or nonreligious stripe doubts that Jesus of Nazareth really lived in the first century and was executed under the authority of Pontius Pilate, the governor of Judea and Samaria. Though this may be common knowledge among scholars, the public may well not be aware of this.” [Jesus, The Final Days eds. Evans & Wright (Westminster, 2009), 3.]

Mark Allen Powell (NT professor at Trinity Lutheran, a founding editor of the Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus): “A hundred and fifty years ago a fairly well respected scholar named Bruno Bauer maintained that the historical Jesus never existed. Anyone who says that today – in the academic world at least – gets grouped with the skinheads who say there was no Holocaust and the scientific holdouts who want to believe the world is flat.” [Jesus as a Figure in History (Westminster, 1998), 168.]

Jesus existed and if you deny his existence you are a fringe lunatic, like holocaust deniers and flat earthers.

[Anonymous]

Let's recap.

The following classical, independent scholars agree Jesus definitely existed. Quotes and links were provided a few pages ago.
- Paul Meier
- Michael Grant

The following scholars are potentially biased against finding Jesus walked the earth, yet they are certain he did:
- Bart Ehrman, an atheist who also describes himself as a historian
- Amy Jill Levine, Jewish
- Paula Fredickson, a Jewish historian

And, of course these cites on Wikipedia think Jesus definitely existed: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

So do the many theologians quoted at 17:44, which atheist pp's call "theologists" and complain must be biased. Because, apparently, some people spend their lives doing things they know are false, or something.

These scholars, typified by the quotes used here from Ehrman, relied on up to 30 Christian and non-Christian sources as well as linguistic evidence. For example, Ehrman writes (link was given a few pages ago): "Paul, as I will point out, actually knew, personally, Jesus’ own brother James and his closest disciples Peter and John. That’s [by itself] more or less a death knell for the Mythicist position, as some of them admit."

***

Posters who claim the evidence of Jesus' existence isn't certain have brought to the table:
- A few weeks ago on DCUM, posters with zero scholarly credentials or evidence agreed there's no 100% certainty.
- ???

[Anonymous]

Saint Bart also says, “I decided that the vast majority of scholars (all but one or two, out of many thousands) are absolutely right. Jesus did exist.”

https://ehrmanblog.org/would-i-be-personally-upset-if-the-mythicists-were-right-that-jesus-never-existed/

[Anonymous]

Refusing to believe that Jesus of Nazareth was an actual historial figure is an entirely stupid argument for atheists to make. Nothing about Jesus being an actual person undermines the idea that Jesus was not the son of God. There are lots of people who are currently alive and clam a special relationship with God. People outside of their congregations and faith traditions are rightly skeptical of those claims. It's logical to accept that Jesus was a historical figure (rabbi, teacher, victim of political persecution by the Romans), but NOT the son of God. Christian theology emerges from the teachings of Jesus, Judaism, Hellenism, and Roman culture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Refusing to believe that Jesus of Nazareth was an actual historial figure is an entirely stupid argument for atheists to make. Nothing about Jesus being an actual person undermines the idea that Jesus was not the son of God. There are lots of people who are currently alive and clam a special relationship with God. People outside of their congregations and faith traditions are rightly skeptical of those claims. It's logical to accept that Jesus was a historical figure (rabbi, teacher, victim of political persecution by the Romans), but NOT the son of God. Christian theology emerges from the teachings of Jesus, Judaism, Hellenism, and Roman culture.

Jesus existed and was a real man. The trolls on this thread are absolutely seething they have to admit that.

[Anonymous]

This fight is really silly.

I would argue that the person Jesus Christ, who almost certainly was a real mortal person, didn't have much to do with what we call Christian theology 2,000 years later. That's a much more interesting thing to ponder than pretending we could prove absolutely that he existed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This fight is really silly.

I would argue that the person Jesus Christ, who almost certainly was a real mortal person, didn't have much to do with what we call Christian theology 2,000 years later. That's a much more interesting thing to ponder than pretending we could prove absolutely that he existed.

Yet here you still are, talking about “pretending we can prove he existed” instead of accepting the vast scholarly consensus that Jesus certainly did exist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://ehrmanblog.org/gospel-evidence-that-jesus-existed/

Here’s Bart:

Jesus existed. In yesterday’s post, I began to show how Jesus is the best attested Palestinian Jew of the first century if we look only at external evidence.

But how can you make a convincing case [that someone made up Jesus] if we’re talking about thirty or so independent sources that know there was a man Jesus? These sources are not all living in the same village someplace so they are egging each other on. They didn’t compare notes. They are independent of one another and are scattered throughout the Mediterranean. They each have heard about the man Jesus from their own sources of information, which heard about him from their own sources of information.

That must mean that there were hundreds of people at the least who were talking about the man Jesus. One of them was the apostle Paul, who was talking about Jesus by at least the year 32 CE, that is, two years after the date of Jesus’ death.

Paul, as I will point out, actually knew, personally, Jesus’ own brother James and his closest disciples Peter and John. That’s [by itself] more or less a death knell for the Mythicist position, as some of them admit.

(Still Bart talking) Short story: we are not talking about a Bart Ehrman Jesus figure invented in the year 60. There was widespread information about Jesus from the years after his death. Otherwise, you can’t explain all the literary evidence (dozens of independent sources), some of it based on Aramaic traditions of Jesus’ homeland.

If we're taking scripture at its word, then are we drawing a line somewhere when historical evidence refutes it? Or are we just taking scripture as fact because enough people in scripture said it?

Bumping because, yeah... Are we just saying that if enough people said something, it's true? Even the antisemitic lie that the Jews killed Jesus? Because that's where this leads.

Who is “we”? Are you a scholar, even a classicist or historian? Let us know your credentials.

Again, find one scholar who agrees with you and link to them. Otherwise you’re keeping company with skinhead holocaust deniers, flat-earthers and climate-change deniers.

...What? "We" are the people arguing about this on DCUM. And yes, I was a history major, though I didn't go into academia as a field. I'm just pointing out the flawed logic of using "lots of people mentioned Jesus" as proof of a truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://ehrmanblog.org/gospel-evidence-that-jesus-existed/

Here’s Bart:

Jesus existed. In yesterday’s post, I began to show how Jesus is the best attested Palestinian Jew of the first century if we look only at external evidence.

But how can you make a convincing case [that someone made up Jesus] if we’re talking about thirty or so independent sources that know there was a man Jesus? These sources are not all living in the same village someplace so they are egging each other on. They didn’t compare notes. They are independent of one another and are scattered throughout the Mediterranean. They each have heard about the man Jesus from their own sources of information, which heard about him from their own sources of information.

That must mean that there were hundreds of people at the least who were talking about the man Jesus. One of them was the apostle Paul, who was talking about Jesus by at least the year 32 CE, that is, two years after the date of Jesus’ death.

Paul, as I will point out, actually knew, personally, Jesus’ own brother James and his closest disciples Peter and John. That’s [by itself] more or less a death knell for the Mythicist position, as some of them admit.

(Still Bart talking) Short story: we are not talking about a Bart Ehrman Jesus figure invented in the year 60. There was widespread information about Jesus from the years after his death. Otherwise, you can’t explain all the literary evidence (dozens of independent sources), some of it based on Aramaic traditions of Jesus’ homeland.

If we're taking scripture at its word, then are we drawing a line somewhere when historical evidence refutes it? Or are we just taking scripture as fact because enough people in scripture said it?

Bumping because, yeah... Are we just saying that if enough people said something, it's true? Even the antisemitic lie that the Jews killed Jesus? Because that's where this leads.

Who is “we”? Are you a scholar, even a classicist or historian? Let us know your credentials.

Again, find one scholar who agrees with you and link to them. Otherwise you’re keeping company with skinhead holocaust deniers, flat-earthers and climate-change deniers.

...What? "We" are the people arguing about this on DCUM. And yes, I was a history major, though I didn't go into academia as a field. I'm just pointing out the flawed logic of using "lots of people mentioned Jesus" as proof of a truth.

Adding: FWIW, I believe Jesus existed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This fight is really silly.

I would argue that the person Jesus Christ, who almost certainly was a real mortal person, didn't have much to do with what we call Christian theology 2,000 years later. That's a much more interesting thing to ponder than pretending we could prove absolutely that he existed.

This is the controversial part, and yes, far more interesting. The people saying he existed are just beating a dead horse now. I think 99% of the posters on this thread would agree there was a historical person named Jesus who preached in Galilee around 4 B.C. to about 30 AD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This fight is really silly.

I would argue that the person Jesus Christ, who almost certainly was a real mortal person, didn't have much to do with what we call Christian theology 2,000 years later. That's a much more interesting thing to ponder than pretending we could prove absolutely that he existed.

This is the controversial part, and yes, far more interesting. The people saying he existed are just beating a dead horse now. I think 99% of the posters on this thread would agree there was a historical person named Jesus who preached in Galilee around 4 B.C. to about 30 AD.

The thread topic is whether Jesus existed. That’s why people are talking about whether Jesus existed. There was a lot of pushback, surprisingly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Saint Bart also says, “I decided that the vast majority of scholars (all but one or two, out of many thousands) are absolutely right. Jesus did exist.”

https://ehrmanblog.org/would-i-be-personally-upset-if-the-mythicists-were-right-that-jesus-never-existed/

Someone here must be his press agent. I bet he hasn’t ever had this many mentions before. [b]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This fight is really silly.

I would argue that the person Jesus Christ, who almost certainly was a real mortal person, didn't have much to do with what we call Christian theology 2,000 years later. That's a much more interesting thing to ponder than pretending we could prove absolutely that he existed.

This is the controversial part, and yes, far more interesting. The people saying he existed are just beating a dead horse now. I think 99% of the posters on this thread would agree there was a historical person named Jesus who preached in Galilee around 4 B.C. to about 30 AD.

The thread topic is whether Jesus existed. That’s why people are talking about whether Jesus existed. There was a lot of pushback, surprisingly.

Pushback? Saying “he most likely existed” is pushback?