US has no good options in Ukraine

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:here’s a decent article re how sanctions probably won’t deter Putin

From Bloomberg: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2022-02-24/ukraine-russia-tensions-u-s-officials-doubted-sanctions-would-work?srnd=premium

Uh, ya think?

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Genuinely curious why people are so upset about Ukraine because I just do not get it.

The country’s government is only 8 years old, formed via a sketchy coup that I watched on Liveleak before that site went bust. Ever since day 1 of this government, Donbas has been a contested zone with separatist forces insisting that they be separate from Ukraine and fighting back and forth. If Putin wants to side with the separatists and support their self determination to the detriment of the new Ukraine regimes self determination, why is that wrong and not the other way around? Why is it a given that we all should just not support the self determination of the separatists living in the Donbas region?

I mean imagine if there was a state in Mexico trying to separate and be their own country and if the US decided to pick a side and put an end to it I once in for all it would be ridiculous for Russia to be like “no we disagree and prefer the other side” from all the way across the world. Then when you think of this in light of the fact that the US government has effected regime change after regime change throughout history it seems highly hypocritical here.

I say go on principle of self determination — if a seperatist region wants to separate let them (after all America was a separatist region from Great Britain). How come we support Taiwan being a separatist region from China but we were against the separatist regions leaving Ukraine?

Today's script out late?

Well it IS true that the Western views on self-determination and regime changes have been pegged squarely to whether the U.S. likes whoever is self-determinatin'. If the U.S. happens to not like the country, then it's OK to invade it and depose the government and do whatever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Genuinely curious why people are so upset about Ukraine because I just do not get it.

The country’s government is only 8 years old, formed via a sketchy coup that I watched on Liveleak before that site went bust. Ever since day 1 of this government, Donbas has been a contested zone with separatist forces insisting that they be separate from Ukraine and fighting back and forth. If Putin wants to side with the separatists and support their self determination to the detriment of the new Ukraine regimes self determination, why is that wrong and not the other way around? Why is it a given that we all should just not support the self determination of the separatists living in the Donbas region?

I mean imagine if there was a state in Mexico trying to separate and be their own country and if the US decided to pick a side and put an end to it I once in for all it would be ridiculous for Russia to be like “no we disagree and prefer the other side” from all the way across the world. Then when you think of this in light of the fact that the US government has effected regime change after regime change throughout history it seems highly hypocritical here.

I say go on principle of self determination — if a seperatist region wants to separate let them (after all America was a separatist region from Great Britain). How come we support Taiwan being a separatist region from China but we were against the separatist regions leaving Ukraine?

Today's script out late?

Why can’t we have a legitimate discussion about these things without just total dismissal.

Isn’t the current Ukrainian government essentially a seperatist group from the old Ukrainian government? Didn’t we arm the Free Syria Army, another separatist group, in their battle against Bashar Al Assad? Is russia not allowed to choose a separatist group that they want to advocate for?

No, Zelensky wasn't part of that group, and he won in a landslide, winning throughout the country. He is the legitimately elected President of Ukraine, which is a flawed democracy, but one nonetheless which was making progress.

And THAT is why Putin invaded. Can't let your people get any ideas from looking at Ukraine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Genuinely curious why people are so upset about Ukraine because I just do not get it.

The country’s government is only 8 years old, formed via a sketchy coup that I watched on Liveleak before that site went bust. Ever since day 1 of this government, Donbas has been a contested zone with separatist forces insisting that they be separate from Ukraine and fighting back and forth. If Putin wants to side with the separatists and support their self determination to the detriment of the new Ukraine regimes self determination, why is that wrong and not the other way around? Why is it a given that we all should just not support the self determination of the separatists living in the Donbas region?

I mean imagine if there was a state in Mexico trying to separate and be their own country and if the US decided to pick a side and put an end to it I once in for all it would be ridiculous for Russia to be like “no we disagree and prefer the other side” from all the way across the world. Then when you think of this in light of the fact that the US government has effected regime change after regime change throughout history it seems highly hypocritical here.

I say go on principle of self determination — if a seperatist region wants to separate let them (after all America was a separatist region from Great Britain). How come we support Taiwan being a separatist region from China but we were against the separatist regions leaving Ukraine?

Today's script out late?

Why can’t we have a legitimate discussion about these things without just total dismissal.

Isn’t the current Ukrainian government essentially a seperatist group from the old Ukrainian government? Didn’t we arm the Free Syria Army, another separatist group, in their battle against Bashar Al Assad? Is russia not allowed to choose a separatist group that they want to advocate for?

Why did we get involved? There are our troups now in the area where they had never gone before.. This is a war with Russia, directly, which is something we had never attempted before for many very very good reasons. If Biden starts a full blown war (USA was avoiding for decades), it will be the end of the world and surely the end of all of us living in this metro area or any other major US city. Unless you believe in the conspiracies that this is all economically based to make fuel prices justify or collapse the economies of the western world and convert all our currencies into one digital currency, etc, etc.. you should be finding very little comfort in a full blow war with Russia. Russia isn't Syria or Iraq or any other country we engaged with in direct warfare on their territory.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Genuinely curious why people are so upset about Ukraine because I just do not get it.

The country’s government is only 8 years old, formed via a sketchy coup that I watched on Liveleak before that site went bust. Ever since day 1 of this government, Donbas has been a contested zone with separatist forces insisting that they be separate from Ukraine and fighting back and forth. If Putin wants to side with the separatists and support their self determination to the detriment of the new Ukraine regimes self determination, why is that wrong and not the other way around? Why is it a given that we all should just not support the self determination of the separatists living in the Donbas region?

I mean imagine if there was a state in Mexico trying to separate and be their own country and if the US decided to pick a side and put an end to it I once in for all it would be ridiculous for Russia to be like “no we disagree and prefer the other side” from all the way across the world. Then when you think of this in light of the fact that the US government has effected regime change after regime change throughout history it seems highly hypocritical here.

I say go on principle of self determination — if a seperatist region wants to separate let them (after all America was a separatist region from Great Britain). How come we support Taiwan being a separatist region from China but we were against the separatist regions leaving Ukraine?

Today's script out late?

Why can’t we have a legitimate discussion about these things without just total dismissal.

Isn’t the current Ukrainian government essentially a seperatist group from the old Ukrainian government? Didn’t we arm the Free Syria Army, another separatist group, in their battle against Bashar Al Assad? Is russia not allowed to choose a separatist group that they want to advocate for?

No, Zelensky wasn't part of that group, and he won in a landslide, winning throughout the country. He is the legitimately elected President of Ukraine, which is a flawed democracy, but one nonetheless which was making progress.

And THAT is why Putin invaded. Can't let your people get any ideas from looking at Ukraine.

That is just silly. Ukraine wasn't becoming a better place to live at all. Look at the labor migration flows. It's the Ukrainian remodeling crews looking for work in Moscow, not the other way round.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Genuinely curious why people are so upset about Ukraine because I just do not get it.

The country’s government is only 8 years old, formed via a sketchy coup that I watched on Liveleak before that site went bust. Ever since day 1 of this government, Donbas has been a contested zone with separatist forces insisting that they be separate from Ukraine and fighting back and forth. If Putin wants to side with the separatists and support their self determination to the detriment of the new Ukraine regimes self determination, why is that wrong and not the other way around? Why is it a given that we all should just not support the self determination of the separatists living in the Donbas region?

I mean imagine if there was a state in Mexico trying to separate and be their own country and if the US decided to pick a side and put an end to it I once in for all it would be ridiculous for Russia to be like “no we disagree and prefer the other side” from all the way across the world. Then when you think of this in light of the fact that the US government has effected regime change after regime change throughout history it seems highly hypocritical here.

I say go on principle of self determination — if a seperatist region wants to separate let them (after all America was a separatist region from Great Britain). How come we support Taiwan being a separatist region from China but we were against the separatist regions leaving Ukraine?

Today's script out late?

Why can’t we have a legitimate discussion about these things without just total dismissal.

Isn’t the current Ukrainian government essentially a seperatist group from the old Ukrainian government? Didn’t we arm the Free Syria Army, another separatist group, in their battle against Bashar Al Assad? Is russia not allowed to choose a separatist group that they want to advocate for?

DP. What you posted is nothing more than Russian propaganda. No one should dignify it with a response.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Trump wants to pull the US out of NATO, that's no secret. Here he is speaking last night as Russia was invading Ukraine - he thinks Putin is the greatest

You’re an idiot if you don’t understand what Trump is saying. Putin IS SMART. That doesn’t mean he’s not diabolical. Trump’s saying, “Of course he planned this and is taking advantage of Biden!!” Somehow you guys never see the second half of what Trump said last week: “No, but think of it. Here’s a guy who’s very savvy,' Trump went on. 'I know him very well. Very, very, very well. Had I been in office, not even thinkable, this never would have happened.” Trump understands Putin, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t see him is as evil
or the enemy. I’m shocked that so many people are so dumb and see things on such a childish level. Yes, you can be SMART and BAD.

[Anonymous]

Italy and Hungary and Cyprus join Germany in saying NO to cutting Russia off from swift

Lolololoolol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trump wants to pull the US out of NATO, that's no secret. Here he is speaking last night as Russia was invading Ukraine - he thinks Putin is the greatest

You’re an idiot if you don’t understand what Trump is saying. Putin IS SMART. That doesn’t mean he’s not diabolical. Trump’s saying, “Of course he planned this and is taking advantage of Biden!!” Somehow you guys never see the second half of what Trump said last week: “No, but think of it. Here’s a guy who’s very savvy,' Trump went on. 'I know him very well. Very, very, very well. Had I been in office, not even thinkable, this never would have happened.” Trump understands Putin, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t see him is as evil
or the enemy. I’m shocked that so many people are so dumb and see things on such a childish level. Yes, you can be SMART and BAD.

The part that's missing is where Trump says what Putin is doing is bad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Genuinely curious why people are so upset about Ukraine because I just do not get it.

The country’s government is only 8 years old, formed via a sketchy coup that I watched on Liveleak before that site went bust. Ever since day 1 of this government, Donbas has been a contested zone with separatist forces insisting that they be separate from Ukraine and fighting back and forth. If Putin wants to side with the separatists and support their self determination to the detriment of the new Ukraine regimes self determination, why is that wrong and not the other way around? Why is it a given that we all should just not support the self determination of the separatists living in the Donbas region?

I mean imagine if there was a state in Mexico trying to separate and be their own country and if the US decided to pick a side and put an end to it I once in for all it would be ridiculous for Russia to be like “no we disagree and prefer the other side” from all the way across the world. Then when you think of this in light of the fact that the US government has effected regime change after regime change throughout history it seems highly hypocritical here.

I say go on principle of self determination — if a seperatist region wants to separate let them (after all America was a separatist region from Great Britain). How come we support Taiwan being a separatist region from China but we were against the separatist regions leaving Ukraine?

Today's script out late?

Well it IS true that the Western views on self-determination and regime changes have been pegged squarely to whether the U.S. likes whoever is self-determinatin'. If the U.S. happens to not like the country, then it's OK to invade it and depose the government and do whatever.

And that’s the exact point I was trying to discuss. To me, siding with the current Ukrainian regime over the seperatist regime is just the latest of example of the US picking sides based on who it wants to be in power. The US literally backed the separatists that overthrew Yanukovich in 2014 — why wasn’t the US upset about Ukraine’s sovereignty in 2014? Because the pre-2014 government was not aligned with the west. Now that they have a pro-western government in Ukraine, Ukraine’s sovereignty MUST be protected and the separatists should be squashed.

I can’t help but seeing it this way and I think it’s fair to discuss maturely without just total dismissal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trump wants to pull the US out of NATO, that's no secret. Here he is speaking last night as Russia was invading Ukraine - he thinks Putin is the greatest

You’re an idiot if you don’t understand what Trump is saying. Putin IS SMART. That doesn’t mean he’s not diabolical. Trump’s saying, “Of course he planned this and is taking advantage of Biden!!” Somehow you guys never see the second half of what Trump said last week: “No, but think of it. Here’s a guy who’s very savvy,' Trump went on. 'I know him very well. Very, very, very well. Had I been in office, not even thinkable, this never would have happened.” Trump understands Putin, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t see him is as evil
or the enemy. I’m shocked that so many people are so dumb and see things on such a childish level. Yes, you can be SMART and BAD.

The part that's missing is where Trump says what Putin is doing is bad.

SP, just to repeat. Putin is killing Ukrainian civilians, needlessly. And Trump has nothing bad to say about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Genuinely curious why people are so upset about Ukraine because I just do not get it.

The country’s government is only 8 years old, formed via a sketchy coup that I watched on Liveleak before that site went bust. Ever since day 1 of this government, Donbas has been a contested zone with separatist forces insisting that they be separate from Ukraine and fighting back and forth. If Putin wants to side with the separatists and support their self determination to the detriment of the new Ukraine regimes self determination, why is that wrong and not the other way around? Why is it a given that we all should just not support the self determination of the separatists living in the Donbas region?

I mean imagine if there was a state in Mexico trying to separate and be their own country and if the US decided to pick a side and put an end to it I once in for all it would be ridiculous for Russia to be like “no we disagree and prefer the other side” from all the way across the world. Then when you think of this in light of the fact that the US government has effected regime change after regime change throughout history it seems highly hypocritical here.

I say go on principle of self determination — if a seperatist region wants to separate let them (after all America was a separatist region from Great Britain). How come we support Taiwan being a separatist region from China but we were against the separatist regions leaving Ukraine?

Today's script out late?

Well it IS true that the Western views on self-determination and regime changes have been pegged squarely to whether the U.S. likes whoever is self-determinatin'. If the U.S. happens to not like the country, then it's OK to invade it and depose the government and do whatever.

And that’s the exact point I was trying to discuss. To me, siding with the current Ukrainian regime over the seperatist regime is just the latest of example of the US picking sides based on who it wants to be in power. The US literally backed the separatists that overthrew Yanukovich in 2014 — why wasn’t the US upset about Ukraine’s sovereignty in 2014? Because the pre-2014 government was not aligned with the west. Now that they have a pro-western government in Ukraine, Ukraine’s sovereignty MUST be protected and the separatists should be squashed.

I can’t help but seeing it this way and I think it’s fair to discuss maturely without just total dismissal.

Hopefully the US will arm whoever is trying to overthrow the government that Russia installs. Hopefully that results in dead Russian soldiers and Russian assets getting tied up in a counterinsurgency

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trump wants to pull the US out of NATO, that's no secret. Here he is speaking last night as Russia was invading Ukraine - he thinks Putin is the greatest

You’re an idiot if you don’t understand what Trump is saying. Putin IS SMART. That doesn’t mean he’s not diabolical. Trump’s saying, “Of course he planned this and is taking advantage of Biden!!” Somehow you guys never see the second half of what Trump said last week: “No, but think of it. Here’s a guy who’s very savvy,' Trump went on. 'I know him very well. Very, very, very well. Had I been in office, not even thinkable, this never would have happened.” Trump understands Putin, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t see him is as evil
or the enemy. I’m shocked that so many people are so dumb and see things on such a childish level. Yes, you can be SMART and BAD.

Just give it up. There is no equivocating what Putin is doing. A former President of the United States shouldn't be praising our enemy for his evil actions. Can you imagine Gore or Kerry or Clinton saying "That Osama Bin Laden, he's a very savvy guy, very smart"?

[Anonymous]