The White Lotus season 2

[Anonymous]

One thing about Ethan's culpability from that night is that we actually saw what unfolded whereas Harper did not.

It's one thing for me to watch those scenes and conclude "Ethan shouldn't have let Cameron into his room with those girls, but he didn't cheat and was pretty firm in choosing not to when presented with a very clear opportunity to do so."

It's entirely different for Harper to TRUST that's the case based on the limited amount of information that Ethan has provided to her, after initially lying to her about what happened.

So I think from an empirical standpoint, Ethan didn't do anything I would consider a violation of wedding vows that night. But I also think Harper is 100% justified in her anger, and not just because he initially lied (but that makes it so much worse). Like one of the reasons that Ethan shouldn't have let Cameron and the girls into his room is because he should have been thinking about how that situation would SOUND to his wife if/when she heard about it. He knew going in that Harper would be uncomfortable with that, would wonder why he felt the need to party with Cameron and these prostitutes when every other night of the vacation he has just sat in bed working on his computer. In context, that was a betrayal even though he "technically" did nothing wrong. And he should have known that.

The fact that he went along with the partying even when he could have just gone to bed or gone somewhere else indicates that maybe, on some level, he was contemplating hooking up with one of the girls and wanted to keep the option open.

These are the kinds of things that would be running through my mind if I were Harper at this point. Ethan didn't cheat but he also didn't act like someone who never had any intention of cheating. In a marriage, intentions matter a lot because fidelity is basically just intention until you finally die and can look back and see if it worked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One thing about Ethan's culpability from that night is that we actually saw what unfolded whereas Harper did not.

It's one thing for me to watch those scenes and conclude "Ethan shouldn't have let Cameron into his room with those girls, but he didn't cheat and was pretty firm in choosing not to when presented with a very clear opportunity to do so."

It's entirely different for Harper to TRUST that's the case based on the limited amount of information that Ethan has provided to her, after initially lying to her about what happened.

So I think from an empirical standpoint, Ethan didn't do anything I would consider a violation of wedding vows that night. But I also think Harper is 100% justified in her anger, and not just because he initially lied (but that makes it so much worse). Like one of the reasons that Ethan shouldn't have let Cameron and the girls into his room is because he should have been thinking about how that situation would SOUND to his wife if/when she heard about it. He knew going in that Harper would be uncomfortable with that, would wonder why he felt the need to party with Cameron and these prostitutes when every other night of the vacation he has just sat in bed working on his computer. In context, that was a betrayal even though he "technically" did nothing wrong. And he should have known that.

The fact that he went along with the partying even when he could have just gone to bed or gone somewhere else indicates that maybe, on some level, he was contemplating hooking up with one of the girls and wanted to keep the option open.

These are the kinds of things that would be running through my mind if I were Harper at this point. Ethan didn't cheat but he also didn't act like someone who never had any intention of cheating. In a marriage, intentions matter a lot because fidelity is basically just intention until you finally die and can look back and see if it worked.

I would say two hookers in your hotel room while I’m out of town is grounds for divorce but I guess I’m old fashioned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ok interesting note on frescoes I went back and watched the season one credits and in there Jennifer Coolidge IS the monkey. So it is interesting that in the updated fresco there is a woman with a monkey on a chain. The season one monkey looks like a female with a flower in its ear, the season two monkey looks male and has its tail between its legs.

Tanya finds a gun in one of the previews. Maybe she figures out she's being had and kills someone in self-defense with the gun or accidently shoots Portia on the boat on the way back to the hotel from the villa. I want to say she accidently shoots Greg, because he comes back expecting that she's been taken care of and she sees him arguing with Tom Hollander about not killing her yet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can we talk about Ethan actually did cheat. I’m sorry but hiring hookers getting them to your room, undressing, kissing and then crying. GTFO that’s not “doing nothing”. So annoyed by this. Like is actual penetration the line. Is this Bill Clinton train of thinking?

I forget the exact wording of Harper's line but it was something like "Yeah it sounds crazy! I leave for one night and you're doing molly with hookers?!"

I LOL'd. I really enjoy the current DGAF version of Harper

And yes, he conveniently left out that they kissed before he made his heroic stand and retreated to the bathroom to cry. Although it really was Mia kissing him and not vice versa so I kind of give him a pass there. (But not for doing Molly with hookers and then lying about it).

I would never by that my husband didn't cheat if I found a wrapper like that in my hotel room when I got back. Ethan didn't, but if I was Harper I would not believe him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So maybe Cameron kills Harper on accident.

I’m the PP but to me this would be the most similar to Season 1. Cameron is Shane and Harper is most similar to Armond personality wise.

I would be disappointed in this outcome because it would feel more like trying to repeat Season 1 than actually showing us something interesting about THESE characters in this situation. Shane/Armand had a totally different dynamic than Cameron/Harper, plus however the Cameron and Harper storylines resolve, I think Ethan has to play a central role because he's the character that the foursome seems to hinge on and we still understand him the least. I think it's been mentioned here as well as on podcasts, as well, but Will Sharpe is a really extraordinary actor and so far he's been given very little to do on the show. I am waiting for the scene that Mike White wrote specifically knowing that Sharpe would have to be the actor to pull it off. We aren't there yet.

Also, I know this thought came from a podcast I listened to earlier this week (so not my original thought) but there is similar logic for F. Murray Abraham, who plays Bert. He's spent the show kind of doddering around, being skeevy towards women, and chastising Dom a bit. I think we're in for Bert to have a scene or two that better justifies that casting because FMA is capable of really commanding a scene. Also true, to a lesser degree, for Imperioli. I think we're going to get some fireworks on the trip to the ancestral home.

There are only two episodes left--if all these amazing scenes are going to happen, they better do so with a quickness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:However people die, I think it has to happen on the water or beach, or from falling/jumping/getting pushed off a cliff. I just have a hard time seeing how one of these characters disposes of a body in the ocean.

So the deaths probably happen outside or on a boat or jets. That is more limiting in terms of how it happens. I don't think we're talking about someone getting caught in the act of something (like cheating) and murder ensuing. More likely a misunderstanding that leads to a push/fall, or something happening out in the water when people are very drunk and/or high (lots of drugs and alcohol in this season, as in last, and I feel confident they play some role in the deaths).

I feel like that's what Mike White wants you to think - but who could have predicted that Armond would get stabbed after taking a dump in Shane's suitcase. Mike White loves to toy with our expectations and give us the unexpected!

Meanwhile Shane Armond dueling with each other was in front of our eyes wide shut the whole time. Remember the distraction of the jewelry heist last season?

Sort of. Last season the show was trying to get us to think Shane killed Rachel pretty much from the get go. Or at least that Rachel died. We seem him in the airport alone looking sad, snap at someone when they ask about his wife, hear about the body being loaded on the plane, and see him looking sort of guilty or implicated by that. Then we watch as he is a total jerk and this fact starts to dawn on Rachel, they fight and he puts down her career. We also see Shane acting increasingly erratic. Then, after everyone hears about the break-ins and thefts, Shane gets a knife and says he wishes he had a weapon, and then almost immediately he and Rachel get into a huge fight and she says she regrets marrying him. All with the knife right there. So even though Shane and Armand are engaged in this petty battle the entire time, the show was focusing much more heavily on the conflict between Shane and Rachel and even repeatedly foreshadowing that Rachel is dead and also that Shane might have something to do with it.

So yes, the stabbing of Armand winds up coming out of left field, with Shane using the knife that he got out to deal with robbers, and that seemed ominous in a fight with his wife, to accidentally kill the guy he'd been fighting with all along. And I certainly never anticipated that Armand would be the body on the plane (he didn't arrive on the boat so I could never have known his body would fly back with them) or that he would make a series of terrible choices that would result in Shane killing him. It all makes sense in retrospect but there is absolutely no way that even an astute watcher of the show could have guessed that sequence of events before it happened.

I think Mike White likes to play with expectations and upend them, but will do so in a way that will seem obvious only in retrospect.

[Anonymous]

I think what was brutal about season 1 was everyone just shrugged at the end and the rich just leave this wake of fked up ness. He was just the help so who really cared?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can we talk about Ethan actually did cheat. I’m sorry but hiring hookers getting them to your room, undressing, kissing and then crying. GTFO that’s not “doing nothing”. So annoyed by this. Like is actual penetration the line. Is this Bill Clinton train of thinking?

No, he didn't. He behaved badly, but most of it was by being adjacent to Cameron. Ethan is so passive--do you honestly think he was the impetus behind finding the girls, flirting with them, inviting them back to their room, and undressing them? He was just high and drunk and along for the ride. He rejected Mia's overtures.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think what was brutal about season 1 was everyone just shrugged at the end and the rich just leave this wake of fked up ness. He was just the help so who really cared?

Yes. And the kicker was Rachel showing up at the airport all "ok I'll play this game so I can be rich with you." On the one hand, totally predictable based on what we know about her. On the other hand, especially painful to watch after her DH just killed someone and is facing absolutely no consequences for it.

That's what got me about Season 1 -- the end was a surprise but then immediately I "got it", that this wasn't surprising at all and it was actually my expectations that the rich people on the show would evolve or be accountable in any way that were unrealistic. It reminded me of the way some of the best, darkly funny comics will play upon your naive beliefs about how the world works and make you laugh at something that's actually pretty depressing, because you're actually laughing at yourself for being dumb enough not to realize the truth in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can we talk about Ethan actually did cheat. I’m sorry but hiring hookers getting them to your room, undressing, kissing and then crying. GTFO that’s not “doing nothing”. So annoyed by this. Like is actual penetration the line. Is this Bill Clinton train of thinking?

I forget the exact wording of Harper's line but it was something like "Yeah it sounds crazy! I leave for one night and you're doing molly with hookers?!"

I LOL'd. I really enjoy the current DGAF version of Harper

And yes, he conveniently left out that they kissed before he made his heroic stand and retreated to the bathroom to cry. Although it really was Mia kissing him and not vice versa so I kind of give him a pass there. (But not for doing Molly with hookers and then lying about it).

I would never by that my husband didn't cheat if I found a wrapper like that in my hotel room when I got back. Ethan didn't, but if I was Harper I would not believe him.

Okay, so you don't trust your husband. Sorry about that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can we talk about Ethan actually did cheat. I’m sorry but hiring hookers getting them to your room, undressing, kissing and then crying. GTFO that’s not “doing nothing”. So annoyed by this. Like is actual penetration the line. Is this Bill Clinton train of thinking?

No, he didn't. He behaved badly, but most of it was by being adjacent to Cameron. Ethan is so passive--do you honestly think he was the impetus behind finding the girls, flirting with them, inviting them back to their room, and undressing them? He was just high and drunk and along for the ride. He rejected Mia's overtures.

I get the sense that Ethan is not normally this passive, and that his passive behavior towards Cameron on this trip is a big part of what is unsettling Harper. I think normally, Ethan is probably pretty direct and opinionated (he built and sold a tech business that has made them incredibly rich, he's probably not a pushover). I also bet that normally he and Harper are both kind of caustic and critical of people they think are less intelligent than them. You get glimpses of this. They seem like a couple who was attracted to each other for being curious, intelligent, and aware. They sit in bed and read books and work on their computers. They probably talk about work a lot and love that they both are so good at and interested in their jobs. I get the sense that if the met some random couple on a vacation and that couple was like "we don't vote or read! I love Dateline and we're friends with Jeff Bezos!" Ethan would be right there with Harper in skewering them later that night as vapid and stupid.

But he's not doing that with Cameron and keep suggesting they are "fun". And you can tell Harper is just like "who are you and what did you do with my husband?" Like I just get the sense based on her interactions with him that he is acting VERY unusually. What reads as her being super negative and unpleasant to him is actually her being confused and frustrated because normally they'd cackle about the dump rich couple from dinner and instead he's suddenly defending them. Is it because he's newly rich and wants to be the dumb rich couple? Or is it because he's distracted by this longstanding beef with Cameron that is consuming him and making him withdraw into himself? It's very unclear. But I think normally Ethan would be rolling his eyes right along with Harper and they'd probably bond over their shared sense of superiority. Harper is frustrated that's not happening and it's making her feel very distant from her husband during a huge shift in their financial circumstances due to his job, not hers. And it's making her insecure.

[Anonymous]

I hated how Ethan lied to Harper, tried to gaslight her (“I didn’t actually lie to you”) and was weak. But he did make one point that I could understand - he didn’t want it to become a huge drama while still there. If I were in his shoes, I might do the same thing - because I didn’t do anything, just keep quiet until we got on the plane and then unload with “you cannot believe what happened when we were away in Noto!”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think what was brutal about season 1 was everyone just shrugged at the end and the rich just leave this wake of fked up ness. He was just the help so who really cared?

Yes. And the kicker was Rachel showing up at the airport all "ok I'll play this game so I can be rich with you." On the one hand, totally predictable based on what we know about her. On the other hand, especially painful to watch after her DH just killed someone and is facing absolutely no consequences for it.

That's what got me about Season 1 -- the end was a surprise but then immediately I "got it", that this wasn't surprising at all and it was actually my expectations that the rich people on the show would evolve or be accountable in any way that were unrealistic. It reminded me of the way some of the best, darkly funny comics will play upon your naive beliefs about how the world works and make you laugh at something that's actually pretty depressing, because you're actually laughing at yourself for being dumb enough not to realize the truth in the first place.

The HBO show Succession is this 100%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to say that the death in the first season was an accident not a murder and I would imagine it will be somewhat similar this time around. I think the point of the show is that it is these people's carelessness and selfishness and lack of empathy that results in the tragedy. The whodunnit element was a total red herring the first time around.

+1, was just thinking this. I think it's highly unlikely that someone murders someone else in cold blood, and the idea that one character would murder another and then get murdered by yet another character really strains credulity. One thing I like about this show is that, while it's heightened and played for drama, most of the characters and what happens is somewhat realistic.

I think it's most likely that the bodies in the water are there from drug overdose, falling overboard while out on a boat (or jet skis), natural causes (ahem, Bert), or maybe an altercation that no one intends to be deadly but winds up that way. I am open to the idea of something more nefarious because I don't think they'll just want to repeat the "accidental violent death" storyline from last season, but I doubt we're going to get a straight up murder. Especially because the show has been very heavy handed with all the references to murder this season, and I just don't think Mike White is that literal.

I think suicide is a possibility too. Maybe Nonno bc he was so crushed by Dom's characterization of his marriage. I think Lucia getting killed is likely - maybe not a premeditated murder, but a confrontation with either Cameron or Albie/Dom that spirals out of control

I think it would be an interesting twist if Albie turns out to be the "bad guy" w/r/t Lucia. He has some incel energy bubbling underneath the wokeness and it might underline the point that it's hard to break the toxic masculinity cycle

I actually think Albie is at risk particularly with how Lucia plays so recklessly with drugs. I don't see him becoming some sexist incel but I can imagine him being drunk and encouraged to take whatever crazy stuff Lucia has.

[Anonymous]

I like I do