4th grader isolated at school and in group settings
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Anonymous
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My social DD is becoming withdrawn and sad. She says that when she goes to school she is excluded from other girls’ groups, even though these same girls frequently have one on one play dates/sleepovers with my DD. But DD says that when in groups she is excluded and asked to leave. There is one popular girl in the class group who dislikes my DD so I’m not sure if that plays into it.
I’ve tried talking to the teacher and counselor at school. They say there isn’t a problem and that I should just keep doing play dates. But there is a problem! I don’t even know how to approach this because my daughter says that talking with the school counselor or these other girls’ moms will just make things worse (and I think she’s probably right). Any advice? This is a public elementary school in VA. I could swing parochial school costs but not full private. She is asking to be home schooled but I can’t do that. I would really appreciate any advice for people who have navigated this. |
Anonymous
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No ideas but we have the same situation with our 4th grader at a private. I’ve tried to convince her to switch to our zoned public or homeschooling while she applies out to no avail.
What I see happening in my DD’s case is that her classmates are all at very different points in maturity and development, but the oldest/biggest/ones with older siblings set the tone during the school day. Girls who are chill and kind and want to play like little girls on weekends act totally differently when they’re around the queen bees during the school day. Girls who are more academically oriented are pinched from both sides- they’re expected to be quiet and behave by teachers who have their hands full with boys and behavioral situations, and they’re seen as unfun by the other girls. I sometimes volunteer at lunch and can see the dynamics unfold on the playground while we are cleaning up. Here’s the thing: DD doesn’t want to act differently and it’s important to her and she’s said so. I don’t think there is a solution for girls not willing to play along, and it’s ok to say that the popularity game is not for them. I tell DD to focus on having just one friend, one person to sit with, and one person to play with. And if she has more than that, it’s a win. |
Anonymous
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It’s hard to know unless the teacher is really watching about what happens at recess. Without unduly stressing your daughter, I’d ask her casually what she did at school that day and ask about recess generally. “Was it cold? Who did you play with? What did most kids play” Not an interrogation. Then make notes. You need to go back to the teacher with data, and remember that the teacher may not be on duty every day. When you have other kids over, give them a snack and tell them about your fourth-grade class experience. Mention a field trip or other ordinary things, then ask what do kids do these days at recess. I used to like to get on the swings a lot.
Then listen to what they say and ask if most kids play with the same group all the time and who decides what they play and what the rules are. More mature girls at that age might walk around talking a lot more than running and playing. As an elementary teacher, I saw many stages of play at recess at different grades. If your child is really upset about this, have her make a list of recess options and she can go to plan B if plan A doesn’t work. If you find that she is being excluded on purpose, go to the teacher and principal with specific information.I’m sorry. |
Anonymous
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My DD went through a very similar thing in fourth grade. I ended up putting her in therapy because she was also generally anxious about life and I suspected they were connected. She and the therapist worked a lot on identifying whether a friendship made you feel good and whether that friendship should be nurtured. There was a rough period where her friendships changed, but she ended up asking for playdates with some different girls who were maybe less socially mature and "cool", and now she is very happy in sixth grade.
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Anonymous
Do you have a therapist recommendation? |
Anonymous
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For my kid, this feeling of being excluded, that didn't match what others were observing, was an early sign of depression and anxiety which can be triggered by hormones as kids approach puberty.
It could be that she's being excluded in subtle ways and people aren't seeing it. But it could also be something internal to her. |
Anonymous
I think this is very good advice. It could be that she is being excluded, but it could also be that she thinks she is being excluded even though she isn't. Can you volunteer at lunch or on a field trip in the near future (some slightly unstructured school time, so that you can see the dynamics)? Can you talk to the moms of some of the friends who she plays well with? Don't do it from a "is your DD excluding mine" perspective, but rather from a "my DD seems really unhappy at school and I'm struggling to figure out why; she really likes your DD and they play so well together, so I thought maybe your DD would have some insight into what's happening." You need more external information about what is really happening. If this is really a queen bee being mean to/encouraging others to bully your DD thing, then all the normal advice would apply (1-on-1 playdates with others, moving classes or even schools, etc), but it might not be that at all. If it's not that, the advice is entirely different. |
Anonymous
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OP here. They don’t have playground volunteers at the school. The teachers themselves take shifts and aren’t always on the playground either. When I volunteer for school events I see nothing because they are doing activities like coloring or eating snacks. I have observed the group dynamic during large outside of school parties. The other girls (with whom my DD often has play dates on her own) will separate into groups and run off and do their own thing (eg Girl Scouts, big birthday parties) and DD is left alone or to befriend younger girls.
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Anonymous
Does she try to join these groups and is rebuffed? Or does she not try? There is a big difference between the two scenarios in terms of what is driving the outcome and how to respond (negative peer dynamics vs social anxiety or similar). |
Anonymous
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This sounds like the "mean girls" phenomenon that is terrible - but has gone on for decades. It can happen at any school, public or private.
Therapy might help some, but my niece did not really get better / recover until she switched to a totally different school with different girls and got a fresh start. Maybe at least explore the parochial option, initially just you visiting, then later in person with her if your initial exploration suggests it would be a reasonable candidate option? |
Anonymous
She is rebuffed or ignored (girls turn their backs, run away to another area). She has stopped trying I think. |
Anonymous
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I went through this in 4th grade, but it was really intense, complete with horrible nicknames and getting punched repeatedly. A friend that I knew from the riding stables apologized for snubbing me at the swimming pool, saying, "I'm sorry, but, you know. (Insert horrible nickname here.)"
I would take others' advice and really try to get to the bottom of this, because the effects can really be brutal. |
Anonymous
I've tried talking to her more but it mostly devolves into tears where she says the popular girl who doesn't like her is mean and pretends she's not there. I think this other girl has a lot of influence and other kids want to be in with her, so maybe that travels over to other friend groups. DD says she is alone at recess with the odd day when another girl will come talk to her, that other girls won't let her into their "club" to play, so she is asking to stay at home and just read books. When similar complaints came up last year I asked the teacher to see if she noticed anything and keep an eye on things (but today my daughter said I should have never mentioned it to the teacher because the teacher essentially outed her in class by naming the other girl and saying loudly to let her know if the other girl was being mean). So she has asked me not to raise the issue with the teacher or other parents. I really don't know how to get to the bottom of it. Feeling pretty powerless at the moment to help. PP who was bullied - did you tell your parents? Did they know the extent of it? Did you ask them to pull you from school and your parents ignored it? |
Anonymous
She needs to stop trying to be in this group. In elementary school my daughter was best friends with the meanest girl in school. Every teacher told me that my daughter was never involved in bullying but since they were always together she sometimes was lumped in with her and other nasty ones. I asked my daughter about one specific girl, Gia, whose mother complained a lot. My daughter told me that the Gia always wanted to play with them and the mean girl, Trixie, would say no. They would fight back and forth. Gia never tried to play with other groups. There were groups who couldn’t care less what the “popular” group was doing. Gia had other options but wouldn’t give up on Trixie accepting her. I’ve seen girls whose mothers I’m close with and they pursue girls who they have nothing common with instead of finding the ones who they could be having a great time with. In our schools girls who play sports are not the popular ones. They usually hang out together. In high school the popular girls are not particularly known for anything, just random in every way. They have something in common I guess. You have to find your people. |
Anonymous
| You need to tell the teacher that she is being bullied and if they can’t improve it in a week request a change of classroom. |