$24 billion NYC public schools only accepted 7 black students (of 895) to top magnet high schoool

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:“This is actually tricky -
Admission to Stuyvesant is determined by a single test avail to all middle school students in NYC.There are no soft criteria-no interviews,no legacy favoritism, no strings to be pulled. It’s all abt test score which determines if you can handle academics.”

- Stephanie Ruhle, MSNBC

Maggie Haberman, NYT, quoted Ruhle to say:
“White students generally have more means with which to prep for this test, some doing it for years. Yes it’s a test, no it is not an equal playing field.”

I’m not sure why Maggie used white when Asians are the ones dominating this system.

The simple truth is that Asian relative overperformance demonstrates that “discrimination” is not a significant driver of outcomes on this sort of test. It has always been a very inconvenient truth for those who insist all groups are equally talented, generally ignored because of that inconvenience, and because Asians didn’t seem to want to make a big issue out of it. Now there is a critical mass of Asians who are going to resist getting shafted in the name of diversity. Will be interesting to see how that all works out.

You think it's a level playing field? So it's just pure talent that is being compared by these tests?

um yeah. There are poor and middle class asian kids who are getting in. That throws out race and SES as an excuse

Many of the Chinese kids I knew at Stuy were straight up poor by NYC standards. Their parents worked very menial jobs in Chinatown and Flushing. Some worked to help support their families, and many took on tons of responsibility at an early age because their parents knew no English.

My neighbor is Chinese, she was a doctor in China. She qualifies for the MPDU in MoCo because the US does not recognize her degree and she does not work as a doctor.

For every one of those examples, there are more examples of under educated Asian immigrants working low level jobs whose kids do well in school.

Many Asian immigrants see education as a means to get out of poverty for their children (and the rest of the family), so they are heavily invested in their children's education. That's all it is. That's all it comes down to.

If the kids getting into Stuy are from gang ridden neighborhoods with lead paint in the walls and parents with mental illness we need to clone them.

Do you think the 45% low income students, 90% of them who are Asians live in luxury? Or do you perhaps think they also live in old buildings with lead paint on the walls? Also, mental illness is a serious issue in the Asian community. It's just never talked about, and certainly people never seek help for it.

As for gangs, have you never heard of Chinese gangs in NYC?

http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-deadly-battle-for-control-over-new-york-s-chinatown

When do the excuses stop? Asian immigrants have gone through racism, desperation, gang violence and extreme poverty just as other groups have.

I am Asian American. I went to a gang infested school and grew up low income. My parents didn't speak English. Like many others, we -- the children - had to translate everything for them.. from school forms to doctors' visits.

A lot of your Asian friends were in gangs?

Actually, yes, some were. Stop making excuses. It will only take you so far.

Excuses for what?

For your immense bullsh*t.

What bullshit? I just asked if you had friends in the gangs.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:
um yeah. There are poor and middle class asian kids who are getting in. That throws out race and SES as an excuse

Many of the Chinese kids I knew at Stuy were straight up poor by NYC standards. Their parents worked very menial jobs in Chinatown and Flushing. Some worked to help support their families, and many took on tons of responsibility at an early age because their parents knew no English.

My neighbor is Chinese, she was a doctor in China. She qualifies for the MPDU in MoCo because the US does not recognize her degree and she does not work as a doctor.

For every one of those examples, there are more examples of under educated Asian immigrants working low level jobs whose kids do well in school.

Many Asian immigrants see education as a means to get out of poverty for their children (and the rest of the family), so they are heavily invested in their children's education. That's all it is. That's all it comes down to.

If the kids getting into Stuy are from gang ridden neighborhoods with lead paint in the walls and parents with mental illness we need to clone them.

Do you think the 45% low income students, 90% of them who are Asians live in luxury? Or do you perhaps think they also live in old buildings with lead paint on the walls? Also, mental illness is a serious issue in the Asian community. It's just never talked about, and certainly people never seek help for it.

As for gangs, have you never heard of Chinese gangs in NYC?

http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-deadly-battle-for-control-over-new-york-s-chinatown

When do the excuses stop? Asian immigrants have gone through racism, desperation, gang violence and extreme poverty just as other groups have.

I am Asian American. I went to a gang infested school and grew up low income. My parents didn't speak English. Like many others, we -- the children - had to translate everything for them.. from school forms to doctors' visits.

Wow. I didn't know any of this, first time hearing about Asian American gangs. However, I am willing to accept that I don't know everything about the challenges poor Asian Americans face growing up in NYC.

The question is, are you willing to accept that other ethnic groups may also face challenges--some of them rooted in longstanding historical oppression--that you don't fully grasp?

Yes, African Americans have faced a lot of discrimination. Guess what? So have Asian Americans. So have Hispanic Americans.

I read recently about how the Japanese American farmers were interned during WWII at the behest of the White American farmers in CA because the Japanese American farmers were becoming more prosperous. I also read about segregation in SF of Asian American students, who were not allowed to attend schools with white kids. Asian Americans weren't allowed to own property; not allowed to become citizens. There was mass lynching of Asians out west.

Sure, African slaves in this country were treated horribly, but Asian and Hispanic Americans too were systemically discriminated against. How many more years have to pass before we use "slavery" as an excuse? How do some African Americans manage to do well in life, like my neighbors who are lawyers, or those 7% of Af. Am. students at Stuy. Of course, we still have discrimination in this country. And like not too long ago, minorities have to be better than white people to prove themselves. But constantly using excuses isn't getting anyone anywhere.

No, it's not easy. We also grew up poor. But at least African American parents know the language. Many of these Asian parents don't even speak the language, and they are also not highly educated. I know mine weren't -- ES level education.

I’m Asian American, please ignore this misguided person. There is nothing to gain from comparing each minorities oppression at the hands of whites. This person is not representing of How Asian Americans thinks. The fault lies in broken systems and discrimination.

Yes, it's a broken system that somehow poor Asian immigrants managed to overcome. What makes you think you are a representation of how Asians think?

Asian immigrants think that you should work hard and get an education to get out of poverty.

You're racist and white people love people like you who fall into the "model minority" narrative. You know, the, I'm Asian American and was poor and I still succeeded, so all you other minorities suck. That's a foolish position and you are being pretty ignorant. You realize Black and Hispanic people face types of systemic discrimination that you don't? That doesn't mean Asian Americans aren't discriminated against and don't face their own oppression, but it's different and you are way out of line.

You'd be better off recognizing the systemic racism that holds all minorities back - in different ways for different minority groups. No one is "making excuses", it's real.

[Anonymous]

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um yeah. There are poor and middle class asian kids who are getting in. That throws out race and SES as an excuse

Many of the Chinese kids I knew at Stuy were straight up poor by NYC standards. Their parents worked very menial jobs in Chinatown and Flushing. Some worked to help support their families, and many took on tons of responsibility at an early age because their parents knew no English.

My neighbor is Chinese, she was a doctor in China. She qualifies for the MPDU in MoCo because the US does not recognize her degree and she does not work as a doctor.

For every one of those examples, there are more examples of under educated Asian immigrants working low level jobs whose kids do well in school.

Many Asian immigrants see education as a means to get out of poverty for their children (and the rest of the family), so they are heavily invested in their children's education. That's all it is. That's all it comes down to.

If the kids getting into Stuy are from gang ridden neighborhoods with lead paint in the walls and parents with mental illness we need to clone them.

Do you think the 45% low income students, 90% of them who are Asians live in luxury? Or do you perhaps think they also live in old buildings with lead paint on the walls? Also, mental illness is a serious issue in the Asian community. It's just never talked about, and certainly people never seek help for it.

As for gangs, have you never heard of Chinese gangs in NYC?

http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-deadly-battle-for-control-over-new-york-s-chinatown

When do the excuses stop? Asian immigrants have gone through racism, desperation, gang violence and extreme poverty just as other groups have.

I am Asian American. I went to a gang infested school and grew up low income. My parents didn't speak English. Like many others, we -- the children - had to translate everything for them.. from school forms to doctors' visits.

Wow. I didn't know any of this, first time hearing about Asian American gangs. However, I am willing to accept that I don't know everything about the challenges poor Asian Americans face growing up in NYC.

The question is, are you willing to accept that other ethnic groups may also face challenges--some of them rooted in longstanding historical oppression--that you don't fully grasp?

Yes, African Americans have faced a lot of discrimination. Guess what? So have Asian Americans. So have Hispanic Americans.

I read recently about how the Japanese American farmers were interned during WWII at the behest of the White American farmers in CA because the Japanese American farmers were becoming more prosperous. I also read about segregation in SF of Asian American students, who were not allowed to attend schools with white kids. Asian Americans weren't allowed to own property; not allowed to become citizens. There was mass lynching of Asians out west.

Sure, African slaves in this country were treated horribly, but Asian and Hispanic Americans too were systemically discriminated against. How many more years have to pass before we use "slavery" as an excuse? How do some African Americans manage to do well in life, like my neighbors who are lawyers, or those 7% of Af. Am. students at Stuy. Of course, we still have discrimination in this country. And like not too long ago, minorities have to be better than white people to prove themselves. But constantly using excuses isn't getting anyone anywhere.

No, it's not easy. We also grew up poor. But at least African American parents know the language. Many of these Asian parents don't even speak the language, and they are also not highly educated. I know mine weren't -- ES level education.

I’m Asian American, please ignore this misguided person. There is nothing to gain from comparing each minorities oppression at the hands of whites. This person is not representing of How Asian Americans thinks. The fault lies in broken systems and discrimination.

I'm the PPP here, and I agree not all Asians think like this the oppression Olympics superstar above. I will say, however, that it's a common immigrant sentiment (I pulled myself up by my bootstraps, so why can't they?).

I'm also 1st gen and 1/2 black and 1/2 Asian. I understand how the AA situation in this country is pretty radically different from anyone else's in this country, and it doesn't lend itself to easy comparison with immigrant groups. Also, PP and others like him seem to ignore the selection bias that comes with having the personal characteristics (and luck) it takes to be able to immigrate here and start a life and raise a family--relative to those back home--even if you're poor. This means you're comparing the best/brightest/most driven/etc. from these other countries to all African Americans, who are not here by choice.

I mean, one just has to look at outcomes for black immigrants perform relative to AAs, like the recent Nigerian boy whose been in the news this week--from a family of homeless refugees who arrived a year ago--yet he's a chess champion. There is a serious difference between immigrants and black Americans' situation in the US, and anyone who brings up the fact that slavery was a long time ago, and therefore black Americans simply need to get over the issue and stop making excuses, is frankly not willing to think seriously about the issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test Prep

Sure, it has nothing to do with intellect, work ethic and a cultural value placed on education. Keep your unintelligent head in the sand and things will never change.

I don't think going to a tutor starting at 5 and not having a childhood is something to honor or imitate.

I'm the black and Asian PP. I've been here defending AAs/Latinos, but will call out this too. This PP is just showing his own ignorance re: work ethic and cultural approach to education of many immigrant groups.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
um yeah. There are poor and middle class asian kids who are getting in. That throws out race and SES as an excuse

Many of the Chinese kids I knew at Stuy were straight up poor by NYC standards. Their parents worked very menial jobs in Chinatown and Flushing. Some worked to help support their families, and many took on tons of responsibility at an early age because their parents knew no English.

My neighbor is Chinese, she was a doctor in China. She qualifies for the MPDU in MoCo because the US does not recognize her degree and she does not work as a doctor.

For every one of those examples, there are more examples of under educated Asian immigrants working low level jobs whose kids do well in school.

Many Asian immigrants see education as a means to get out of poverty for their children (and the rest of the family), so they are heavily invested in their children's education. That's all it is. That's all it comes down to.

If the kids getting into Stuy are from gang ridden neighborhoods with lead paint in the walls and parents with mental illness we need to clone them.

Do you think the 45% low income students, 90% of them who are Asians live in luxury? Or do you perhaps think they also live in old buildings with lead paint on the walls? Also, mental illness is a serious issue in the Asian community. It's just never talked about, and certainly people never seek help for it.

As for gangs, have you never heard of Chinese gangs in NYC?

http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-deadly-battle-for-control-over-new-york-s-chinatown

When do the excuses stop? Asian immigrants have gone through racism, desperation, gang violence and extreme poverty just as other groups have.

I am Asian American. I went to a gang infested school and grew up low income. My parents didn't speak English. Like many others, we -- the children - had to translate everything for them.. from school forms to doctors' visits.

Wow. I didn't know any of this, first time hearing about Asian American gangs. However, I am willing to accept that I don't know everything about the challenges poor Asian Americans face growing up in NYC.

The question is, are you willing to accept that other ethnic groups may also face challenges--some of them rooted in longstanding historical oppression--that you don't fully grasp?

Yes, African Americans have faced a lot of discrimination. Guess what? So have Asian Americans. So have Hispanic Americans.

I read recently about how the Japanese American farmers were interned during WWII at the behest of the White American farmers in CA because the Japanese American farmers were becoming more prosperous. I also read about segregation in SF of Asian American students, who were not allowed to attend schools with white kids. Asian Americans weren't allowed to own property; not allowed to become citizens. There was mass lynching of Asians out west.

Sure, African slaves in this country were treated horribly, but Asian and Hispanic Americans too were systemically discriminated against. How many more years have to pass before we use "slavery" as an excuse? How do some African Americans manage to do well in life, like my neighbors who are lawyers, or those 7% of Af. Am. students at Stuy. Of course, we still have discrimination in this country. And like not too long ago, minorities have to be better than white people to prove themselves. But constantly using excuses isn't getting anyone anywhere.

No, it's not easy. We also grew up poor. But at least African American parents know the language. Many of these Asian parents don't even speak the language, and they are also not highly educated. I know mine weren't -- ES level education.

I’m Asian American, please ignore this misguided person. There is nothing to gain from comparing each minorities oppression at the hands of whites. This person is not representing of How Asian Americans thinks. The fault lies in broken systems and discrimination.

Yes, it's a broken system that somehow poor Asian immigrants managed to overcome. What makes you think you are a representation of how Asians think?

Asian immigrants think that you should work hard and get an education to get out of poverty.

Very smart.

[Anonymous]

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$24 billion NYC public schools only accepted 7 black students (of 895) to top magnet high school.

And each of these 7 black kids deserve to be there and are not there because of any false reason like bridging the "achievement gap" through smoke and mirrors as MCPS does. Let's celebrate that.

Clap clap clap clap clap.

The NYT should have interviewed them and their families to find and share best practices and inspiration.

But racism + fake outrage sure sells more newspapers.

This is exactly right....understand what those families did and focus on spreading that. Celebrate their achievement instead of incessantly complaining about the lack of URMs.

You don’t think there is an issue at all?

I think there is obviously a very significant set of issues but solving them starts in the homes of black families.....that’s where every child’s values and behavioral patterns are formed.

And to fix that?

we can't fix it. only they can. we have thrown so much money at the problem with little return. everyone's priorities are different.

[Anonymous]

Black parents need to start living in family unit to raise their children. Both parents working together to raise black children to be high achievers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The point is not that Asians are outperforming HI and AA students because of hard work. Asians are also heavily on FARMS and have language barriers. Many of these Asian-American children have parents who are low paid blue collar workers who are working as cooks and janitors. So, in terms of SES, they are very comparable to the HI and AA population.

What is absolutely interesting is that they are outperforming UMC and wealthy White students who have all the advantages - SES, connections, enrichment.

In a conversation with another Asian-American parent, I asked why are Asian kids able to do so well? The answer she gave me was that the Asian parents were the reason why Asian students succeeded. I asked if she meant the stereotypical "Tiger" parenting among Asians and she said "No. The reason the poorest, uneducated Asian parents will produce the highest achieving Asian student is because these parents are willing to give up each and every of their needs and wants for their kids. This is a group that subsists on rice and veggies so that they can scrap a few dollars to get enrichment for their kids, and they do it for their entire life. "

Translation

They work nights and cook cheap meals to pay for tutoring and test prep.

White students know it is a race to no where, that is why asians outperform on tests but then not at work.

Translation - White students are perhaps used to not performing well because merit is not required to do well for them. The man in White House is an incompetent and criminal buffoon and so is his sons and son-in-law - if these guys can get to the highest office and if rich guys can bribe their way in - why talk about merit? White students know that merit does not mean anything - connections and corruption does. At least the Asian-American model of hard work in academics means that there is honesty and integrity in their climb to the top.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The point is not that Asians are outperforming HI and AA students because of hard work. Asians are also heavily on FARMS and have language barriers. Many of these Asian-American children have parents who are low paid blue collar workers who are working as cooks and janitors. So, in terms of SES, they are very comparable to the HI and AA population.

What is absolutely interesting is that they are outperforming UMC and wealthy White students who have all the advantages - SES, connections, enrichment.

In a conversation with another Asian-American parent, I asked why are Asian kids able to do so well? The answer she gave me was that the Asian parents were the reason why Asian students succeeded. I asked if she meant the stereotypical "Tiger" parenting among Asians and she said "No. The reason the poorest, uneducated Asian parents will produce the highest achieving Asian student is because these parents are willing to give up each and every of their needs and wants for their kids. This is a group that subsists on rice and veggies so that they can scrap a few dollars to get enrichment for their kids, and they do it for their entire life. "

Translation

They work nights and cook cheap meals to pay for tutoring and test prep.

White students know it is a race to no where, that is why asians outperform on tests but then not at work.

Translation - White students are perhaps used to not performing well because merit is not required to do well for them. The man in White House is an incompetent and criminal buffoon and so is his sons and son-in-law - if these guys can get to the highest office and if rich guys can bribe their way in - why talk about merit? White students know that merit does not mean anything - connections and corruption does. At least the Asian-American model of hard work in academics means that there is honesty and integrity in their climb to the top.

Umm, no?

I assume you're trolling but if not, then no. No.

[Anonymous]

Pretty interesting that more Hispanics got into the schools than the AAs? Who are the black students who got in? Are they African-Americans who have been here for generations or the new arrivals from Africa who come from intact and educated families. It does not make sense to write about black students without writing about who they are.

The irony is that the Asians do well even if they live in poverty and have uneducated parents doing menial labor. Could it be because their families are still intact? Or is it because they can see that their parents work hard and sacrifice every thing for them? Is it their diet? Or is it truly genetics?

The same can be said about blacks who come from Nigeria etc. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/03/18/homeless-boy-nigerian-refugee-wins-new-york-state-chess-championship/3199959002/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The point is not that Asians are outperforming HI and AA students because of hard work. Asians are also heavily on FARMS and have language barriers. Many of these Asian-American children have parents who are low paid blue collar workers who are working as cooks and janitors. So, in terms of SES, they are very comparable to the HI and AA population.

What is absolutely interesting is that they are outperforming UMC and wealthy White students who have all the advantages - SES, connections, enrichment.

In a conversation with another Asian-American parent, I asked why are Asian kids able to do so well? The answer she gave me was that the Asian parents were the reason why Asian students succeeded. I asked if she meant the stereotypical "Tiger" parenting among Asians and she said "No. The reason the poorest, uneducated Asian parents will produce the highest achieving Asian student is because these parents are willing to give up each and every of their needs and wants for their kids. This is a group that subsists on rice and veggies so that they can scrap a few dollars to get enrichment for their kids, and they do it for their entire life. "

Translation

They work nights and cook cheap meals to pay for tutoring and test prep.

White students know it is a race to no where, that is why asians outperform on tests but then not at work.

Yea.. it has nothing to do with the fact that there most execs are white and that there is a bamboo ceiling. None at all. And it has nothing to do with wealthier white parents buying their way into college. Nope, not at all.

Asian Americans outearn white people.

Asians are over represented in high paying professions in nyc but also are the group in nyc most likely to live in poverty. They tend to come here with nothing and no English skills but through hard work and education are able to see future generations make it into the professions. Much like the Russian Jews in the early 1900s.

I think was going to point out that Stuy was heavily Jewish in the 30s and 40s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The point is not that Asians are outperforming HI and AA students because of hard work. Asians are also heavily on FARMS and have language barriers. Many of these Asian-American children have parents who are low paid blue collar workers who are working as cooks and janitors. So, in terms of SES, they are very comparable to the HI and AA population.

What is absolutely interesting is that they are outperforming UMC and wealthy White students who have all the advantages - SES, connections, enrichment.

In a conversation with another Asian-American parent, I asked why are Asian kids able to do so well? The answer she gave me was that the Asian parents were the reason why Asian students succeeded. I asked if she meant the stereotypical "Tiger" parenting among Asians and she said "No. The reason the poorest, uneducated Asian parents will produce the highest achieving Asian student is because these parents are willing to give up each and every of their needs and wants for their kids. This is a group that subsists on rice and veggies so that they can scrap a few dollars to get enrichment for their kids, and they do it for their entire life. "

Translation

They work nights and cook cheap meals to pay for tutoring and test prep.

White students know it is a race to no where, that is why asians outperform on tests but then not at work.

Yea.. it has nothing to do with the fact that there most execs are white and that there is a bamboo ceiling. None at all. And it has nothing to do with wealthier white parents buying their way into college. Nope, not at all.

Asian Americans outearn white people.

Asians are over represented in high paying professions in nyc but also are the group in nyc most likely to live in poverty. They tend to come here with nothing and no English skills but through hard work and education are able to see future generations make it into the professions. Much like the Russian Jews in the early 1900s.

I think was going to point out that Stuy was heavily Jewish in the 30s and 40s.

CUNY at one point had the most graduates with Nobels for similar reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Freshman acceptance:
7 black
33 Latino
587 Asian
194 white

NYCPS district overall is 67% black/Latino, 15% white, 15% Asian. Stuyvesant High School is comparable in selectivity to TJ, but I suppose a bit more prestigious, with more national prominence. This is a huge story.

What is going on here? How are Asians so wildly overrepresented and black and Latin kids so underprepared in a $24 billion annually system?

Maybe it is because Blacks and Latinos do not care to be in a magnet school? They find success in other fields - own business, music, sports etc - and they do not want their kids to be working insane hours and not have a life.

Why are the Whites not doing as well as Asians? Especially if they are aware of the connection between education and upward mobility?

[Anonymous]

Is magnet school attractive to vast majority of students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is magnet school attractive to vast majority of students?

No. Very differwnt schools.s.