s/o: if you're catholic, how do you deal with sticking by the church?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Seriously if you want women to be priets -- then don't be Catholic.

If you want to drink alcohol -- don't be Mormon.

If you don't want a gays to be ordained......

The list could go on. It isn't like people don't know that women can't say mass when becoming Catholic or drink alcohol if they are Mormon. It is part of the religion. Don't chose it if you don't want. It is your choice why not let others have their choice too?

Well this argument is such a farce. If American Catholics followed your advice, 98% of Catholic women would be gone from the Church:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/13/us-contraceptives-religion-idUSTRE73C7W020110413

If you can't get on board with natural family planning, you don't deserve to be Catholic, according to your own logic. So then the only Catholics in the US will be the old ladies and the spinsters.

So I'm guessing you don't know any of the young, vibrant, beautiful Catholic families who are choosing to live according to the Church's teachings on contraception? I guess you don't really get out very much.

Since when does "getting out very much" invalidate poll data? 98% of sexually active U.S. Catholic women use contraception. That's the number. If you happen to hang around with the remaining 2%, fine. But you can't change the data.

And for that matter, it is pretty farfetched to think that you actually know what these "vibrant" families are doing. As for my group of friends, 12+ years of Catholic education, Catholic weddings, uncle is a priest? Almost all of them have used contraception, either when they were in college, before they were ready to have kids, or when they were done. They still go to church, still send their kids to Catholic school. But they do not follow the Church teaching on contraception.

Get your head out of the sand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"There are plenty of opportunities for women to serve in leadership roles in the Catholic Church. "

But in roles less important than the clergy, correct?

The Virgin Mary plays a central role in Catholicism. She is honored, revered and much beloved.

While women/girls can't be priests or say mass they can be Nuns, Eucharistic ministers, alter servers -- there are many roles women serve not only in the mass but in the Church.

Oh, please. This is such the party line.

The fact remains that women cannot be in positions of authority. About the best you can do is run a hospital as a nun. But you are answerable to a man, and you can never become that man.

You can't have a Madonna-Whore complex without a Madonna. Important role.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's an interesting question: why are the Boy Scouts criticized for doing the very thing that the Catholic Church is criticized for not doing? While the Church looked the other way as certain priests sexually abused altar boys, sweeping serious misconduct under the rug and repeatedly reassigning perpetrators, the Scouts did something different. They rigorously tried to screen out adult volunteers who showed gay or pedophile tendencies, to protect the boys in Scouting. Although there have been reported instances of misconduct involving adults and scouts, such instances have been comparatively few. Yet the BSA is roundly criticized for being "homophobic," while the Church is criticized for overlooking the sexual proclivities of priests.
Seems like a double standard.

The Boy Scouts are being rightly criticized for equating "gay" with "pedophile". They should exclude known pedophiles, but not known homosexuals. Just being gay does not make you a pedophile. And of course, they also discriminate against lesbians, who even if they were pedophiles should pose no risk to boys.

In fact, if the BSA thinks that all gay men should be banned from being leaders because some of them might be pedophiles, shouldn't the BSA also bad all straight women from being den mothers and pack leaders, because some of us after all might be pedophiles?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do Catholic women deal with being second class citizens in the church?

By not seeing myself as a second class citizen. So I can't be a priest. big deal.

So you're considered less than a man because you can't be a priest. You also are prized for your sexual virtue above all other traits - ie, Virgin Mary worship.

Different does not equate to less than. And, we don't "worship" the Virgin Mary. She is venerated for her ability to give birth to the Son of God. And that amazing gift and power of motherhood that we all possess I think moves most of us as women, Catholic or not. "Prized for sexual virtue" is not the case. Give it a rest.

Ok, but what an awful (because it is completely unrealistic) role model for women to feel pressured to emulate. A virgin mother? Yeah, try to work that one out. So typical of a patriarchy. Venerating motherhood while also fetishizing virginity. Nice trick. Not much to do with real life women and particularly mothers and it isn't even an attainable nor realistic goal. Not to mention Mary was like 12. Blech.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Seriously if you want women to be priets -- then don't be Catholic.

If you want to drink alcohol -- don't be Mormon.

If you don't want a gays to be ordained......

The list could go on. It isn't like people don't know that women can't say mass when becoming Catholic or drink alcohol if they are Mormon. It is part of the religion. Don't chose it if you don't want. It is your choice why not let others have their choice too?

Well this argument is such a farce. If American Catholics followed your advice, 98% of Catholic women would be gone from the Church:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/13/us-contraceptives-religion-idUSTRE73C7W020110413

If you can't get on board with natural family planning, you don't deserve to be Catholic, according to your own logic. So then the only Catholics in the US will be the old ladies and the spinsters.

So I'm guessing you don't know any of the young, vibrant, beautiful Catholic families who are choosing to live according to the Church's teachings on contraception? I guess you don't really get out very much.

Since when does "getting out very much" invalidate poll data? 98% of sexually active U.S. Catholic women use contraception. That's the number. If you happen to hang around with the remaining 2%, fine. But you can't change the data.

And for that matter, it is pretty farfetched to think that you actually know what these "vibrant" families are doing. As for my group of friends, 12+ years of Catholic education, Catholic weddings, uncle is a priest? Almost all of them have used contraception, either when they were in college, before they were ready to have kids, or when they were done. They still go to church, still send their kids to Catholic school. But they do not follow the Church teaching on contraception.

Get your head out of the sand.

100% of Catholics have violated God's laws at some point. According to Church teaching, only Jesus and the Blessed Mother were sinless.

It is such a shame that Catholics do not know Church teaching on human sexuality. They are missing out. And it is a shame other Catholics do know Church teaching and violate it...they are very few in number, I think, but they are missing out that much more.

But the Catholics who are faithful to Church teaching on human sexuality are the ones having the babies. So the future is full of hope.

[Anonymous]

the church's teachings evolve over time. So I don't agree with the PP who said things like "if you want to drink alcohol, don't be mormon", etc. The problem really isn't a pedophile one, it is a gay priest problem. So we need to let priest get married. That would solve 90% of the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do Catholic women deal with being second class citizens in the church?

By not seeing myself as a second class citizen. So I can't be a priest. big deal.

So you're considered less than a man because you can't be a priest. You also are prized for your sexual virtue above all other traits - ie, Virgin Mary worship.

Different does not equate to less than. And, we don't "worship" the Virgin Mary. She is venerated for her ability to give birth to the Son of God. And that amazing gift and power of motherhood that we all possess I think moves most of us as women, Catholic or not. "Prized for sexual virtue" is not the case. Give it a rest.

Ok, but what an awful (because it is completely unrealistic) role model for women to feel pressured to emulate. A virgin mother? Yeah, try to work that one out. So typical of a patriarchy. Venerating motherhood while also fetishizing virginity. Nice trick. Not much to do with real life women and particularly mothers and it isn't even an attainable nor realistic goal. Not to mention Mary was like 12. Blech.

I guess all is fair on DCUM, but slamming Mary seems a bit much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Seriously if you want women to be priets -- then don't be Catholic.

If you want to drink alcohol -- don't be Mormon.

If you don't want a gays to be ordained......

The list could go on. It isn't like people don't know that women can't say mass when becoming Catholic or drink alcohol if they are Mormon. It is part of the religion. Don't chose it if you don't want. It is your choice why not let others have their choice too?

Well this argument is such a farce. If American Catholics followed your advice, 98% of Catholic women would be gone from the Church:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/13/us-contraceptives-religion-idUSTRE73C7W020110413

If you can't get on board with natural family planning, you don't deserve to be Catholic, according to your own logic. So then the only Catholics in the US will be the old ladies and the spinsters.

So I'm guessing you don't know any of the young, vibrant, beautiful Catholic families who are choosing to live according to the Church's teachings on contraception? I guess you don't really get out very much.

Since when does "getting out very much" invalidate poll data? 98% of sexually active U.S. Catholic women use contraception. That's the number. If you happen to hang around with the remaining 2%, fine. But you can't change the data.

And for that matter, it is pretty farfetched to think that you actually know what these "vibrant" families are doing. As for my group of friends, 12+ years of Catholic education, Catholic weddings, uncle is a priest? Almost all of them have used contraception, either when they were in college, before they were ready to have kids, or when they were done. They still go to church, still send their kids to Catholic school. But they do not follow the Church teaching on contraception.

Get your head out of the sand.

100% of Catholics have violated God's laws at some point. According to Church teaching, only Jesus and the Blessed Mother were sinless.

It is such a shame that Catholics do not know Church teaching on human sexuality. They are missing out. And it is a shame other Catholics do know Church teaching and violate it...they are very few in number, I think, but they are missing out that much more.

But the Catholics who are faithful to Church teaching on human sexuality are the ones having the babies. So the future is full of hope.

This is not about being 100% sinless. That's a desperate straw man. These people did not just use a condom once in a moment of weakness, and then regret it later. They take their pills, keep their IUDs. They get vasectomies and get their tubes tied. They use condoms regularly. Which means they fundamentally defy church policy. By your own standards, that means they do not belong in the Catholic Church. And if you think it helps that "good" catholics are having all of the babies, did it not occur to you that many of the bad catholics came from "good" families, and they did not follow in their parents' footsteps?

Wake up. The Church has erred before, and it will err again. Priests were once married and then not. But a few decades ago, they started accepting married Anglican priests who converted. Did the world end? No! The world did not end. Will the world end when a woman becomes a priest. No! As it stands, we have to import many of our priests from other countries. We do not ordain enough of our own faithful in order to serve our parishes. That can't last forever. We need women priests.

One day the Church is going to change, and you are going to be so dug in on these issues that you will feel betrayed and alienated, just like what happened a few generations ago when Vatican II upended the liturgy.

If you are going to drink the Kool Aid, at least read the ingredients with open eyes.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6interi.htm
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Well this argument is such a farce. If American Catholics followed your advice, 98% of Catholic women would be gone from the Church:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/13/us-contraceptives-religion-idUSTRE73C7W020110413

If you can't get on board with natural family planning, you don't deserve to be Catholic, according to your own logic. So then the only Catholics in the US will be the old ladies and the spinsters.

So I'm guessing you don't know any of the young, vibrant, beautiful Catholic families who are choosing to live according to the Church's teachings on contraception? I guess you don't really get out very much.

Since when does "getting out very much" invalidate poll data? 98% of sexually active U.S. Catholic women use contraception. That's the number. If you happen to hang around with the remaining 2%, fine. But you can't change the data.

And for that matter, it is pretty farfetched to think that you actually know what these "vibrant" families are doing. As for my group of friends, 12+ years of Catholic education, Catholic weddings, uncle is a priest? Almost all of them have used contraception, either when they were in college, before they were ready to have kids, or when they were done. They still go to church, still send their kids to Catholic school. But they do not follow the Church teaching on contraception.

Get your head out of the sand.

100% of Catholics have violated God's laws at some point. According to Church teaching, only Jesus and the Blessed Mother were sinless.

It is such a shame that Catholics do not know Church teaching on human sexuality. They are missing out. And it is a shame other Catholics do know Church teaching and violate it...they are very few in number, I think, but they are missing out that much more.

But the Catholics who are faithful to Church teaching on human sexuality are the ones having the babies. So the future is full of hope.

This is not about being 100% sinless. That's a desperate straw man. These people did not just use a condom once in a moment of weakness, and then regret it later. They take their pills, keep their IUDs. They get vasectomies and get their tubes tied. They use condoms regularly. Which means they fundamentally defy church policy. By your own standards, that means they do not belong in the Catholic Church. And if you think it helps that "good" catholics are having all of the babies, did it not occur to you that many of the bad catholics came from "good" families, and they did not follow in their parents' footsteps?

Wake up. The Church has erred before, and it will err again. Priests were once married and then not. But a few decades ago, they started accepting married Anglican priests who converted. Did the world end? No! The world did not end. Will the world end when a woman becomes a priest. No! As it stands, we have to import many of our priests from other countries. We do not ordain enough of our own faithful in order to serve our parishes. That can't last forever. We need women priests.

One day the Church is going to change, and you are going to be so dug in on these issues that you will feel betrayed and alienated, just like what happened a few generations ago when Vatican II upended the liturgy.

If you are going to drink the Kool Aid, at least read the ingredients with open eyes.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6interi.htm
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

I think you are confusing me with another PP. Catholics who sin can still be faithful. I think most Catholics who disobey Church teaching are not deliberately, openly defiant, with full understanding and intent. They are usually mis/uninformed and confused, and it is not their fault, because no one taught them what they needed to know.

For the very few who claim to know everything and still choose to disobey, AND refuse to reconcile, I can't know their motivations. It could be fear, or a lack of trust, or anger. Not a good place to be. But there is always hope for reconciliation.

For the subset of that small disobedient, unrepentant group who makes their deliberate, informed, free decision to disobey AND do so publicly? That is scandal. That is how you can excommunicate yourself. Not because the Church is mean, but because she respects everyone's free will. Anyone can choose to reject the truth of the faith completely. So then, by definition, one would no longer be Catholic, by choice.

Every single Christian denomination taught that contraception is intrinsically wrong until the 1930 Lamberth conference, when the Anglican church broke with this universal Christian teaching. So few people understand the doctrines about human sexuality...they are really quite beautiful, as they should be, since if you are Catholic, you believe they are God's own plan for sex.

Some things cannot change. If you cannot in good conscience accept essential Church teaching, that is between you and God. But you can't reasonably expect the Church to conform to your will.

[Anonymous]

BTW we know the Catholic teaching on human sexuality. We did 12 years of school with priests and nuns. We went to mass six days a week for pretty much our entire childhoods. We can sing the Salve Regina in Latin. Eucharistic Adoration every first Friday. Said our rosaries in silence at the Carmelite monastery. I myself spent eight years studying under the nuns, four years with the Jesuits, and eight years in programs with Opus Dei. I have read my theologians and my encyclicals.

The idea that we are ignorant and "do not know" the teachings of the church and are "missing out" is a fantasy that makes you feel good. But it is false.

[Anonymous]

^^^and were those church documents supposed to upset me? I'm a faithful Catholic. I have read them before. I accept them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:BTW we know the Catholic teaching on human sexuality. We did 12 years of school with priests and nuns. We went to mass six days a week for pretty much our entire childhoods. We can sing the Salve Regina in Latin. Eucharistic Adoration every first Friday. Said our rosaries in silence at the Carmelite monastery. I myself spent eight years studying under the nuns, four years with the Jesuits, and eight years in programs with Opus Dei. I have read my theologians and my encyclicals.

The idea that we are ignorant and "do not know" the teachings of the church and are "missing out" is a fantasy that makes you feel good. But it is false.

I'm sorry to hear that you are not ignorant, but defiant. If you are choosing not to follow God's plan, then you ARE missing out, because His plan must be perfect. Nothing about people being lost makes me feel good, and never could.

You sound upset, or maybe angry. You don't sound like you have peace. With all my heart, I hope that you find peace. Sometimes it is best to have the faith of a child. Trust God. Say your prayers. goodnight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Well this argument is such a farce. If American Catholics followed your advice, 98% of Catholic women would be gone from the Church:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/13/us-contraceptives-religion-idUSTRE73C7W020110413

If you can't get on board with natural family planning, you don't deserve to be Catholic, according to your own logic. So then the only Catholics in the US will be the old ladies and the spinsters.

So I'm guessing you don't know any of the young, vibrant, beautiful Catholic families who are choosing to live according to the Church's teachings on contraception? I guess you don't really get out very much.

Since when does "getting out very much" invalidate poll data? 98% of sexually active U.S. Catholic women use contraception. That's the number. If you happen to hang around with the remaining 2%, fine. But you can't change the data.

And for that matter, it is pretty farfetched to think that you actually know what these "vibrant" families are doing. As for my group of friends, 12+ years of Catholic education, Catholic weddings, uncle is a priest? Almost all of them have used contraception, either when they were in college, before they were ready to have kids, or when they were done. They still go to church, still send their kids to Catholic school. But they do not follow the Church teaching on contraception.

Get your head out of the sand.

100% of Catholics have violated God's laws at some point. According to Church teaching, only Jesus and the Blessed Mother were sinless.

It is such a shame that Catholics do not know Church teaching on human sexuality. They are missing out. And it is a shame other Catholics do know Church teaching and violate it...they are very few in number, I think, but they are missing out that much more.

But the Catholics who are faithful to Church teaching on human sexuality are the ones having the babies. So the future is full of hope.

This is not about being 100% sinless. That's a desperate straw man. These people did not just use a condom once in a moment of weakness, and then regret it later. They take their pills, keep their IUDs. They get vasectomies and get their tubes tied. They use condoms regularly. Which means they fundamentally defy church policy. By your own standards, that means they do not belong in the Catholic Church. And if you think it helps that "good" catholics are having all of the babies, did it not occur to you that many of the bad catholics came from "good" families, and they did not follow in their parents' footsteps?

Wake up. The Church has erred before, and it will err again. Priests were once married and then not. But a few decades ago, they started accepting married Anglican priests who converted. Did the world end? No! The world did not end. Will the world end when a woman becomes a priest. No! As it stands, we have to import many of our priests from other countries. We do not ordain enough of our own faithful in order to serve our parishes. That can't last forever. We need women priests.

One day the Church is going to change, and you are going to be so dug in on these issues that you will feel betrayed and alienated, just like what happened a few generations ago when Vatican II upended the liturgy.

If you are going to drink the Kool Aid, at least read the ingredients with open eyes.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6interi.htm
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

I think you are confusing me with another PP. Catholics who sin can still be faithful. I think most Catholics who disobey Church teaching are not deliberately, openly defiant, with full understanding and intent. They are usually mis/uninformed and confused, and it is not their fault, because no one taught them what they needed to know.

For the very few who claim to know everything and still choose to disobey, AND refuse to reconcile, I can't know their motivations. It could be fear, or a lack of trust, or anger. Not a good place to be. But there is always hope for reconciliation.

For the subset of that small disobedient, unrepentant group who makes their deliberate, informed, free decision to disobey AND do so publicly? That is scandal. That is how you can excommunicate yourself. Not because the Church is mean, but because she respects everyone's free will. Anyone can choose to reject the truth of the faith completely. So then, by definition, one would no longer be Catholic, by choice.

Every single Christian denomination taught that contraception is intrinsically wrong until the 1930 Lamberth conference, when the Anglican church broke with this universal Christian teaching. So few people understand the doctrines about human sexuality...they are really quite beautiful, as they should be, since if you are Catholic, you believe they are God's own plan for sex.

Some things cannot change. If you cannot in good conscience accept essential Church teaching, that is between you and God. But you can't reasonably expect the Church to conform to your will.

A. I see no reason why open vs. silent defiance is morally any different. I guess as long as everyone practices DADT and there is no public scandal, everything is alright. That worked so well before with sexual abuse. Plus we get to keep the 98% of Catholics who defy Church law.

B. Every person I went to school with understands church law in detail. You can call it "quite beautiful", but informed Catholics can and do disagree.

C. You say some things cannot change. And yet they have so often before. We were talking about the priesthood. Priests once were married. Now they are not. That's not so immutable. Women were not allowed to distribute communion. Now they are. That's not so immutable. I know that women were deacons, even in the bible, although you may choose to nitpick that. I know that the arguments today for a male priesthood are not the ones used several centuries ago. How can the wisdom be immutable if the logic is not the same?

It is not sufficient for an educated adult Catholic to continue to repeat without question what he or she hears in the pulpit. If you do not question it you cannot defend it, other than by repeating the trite sayings you learned by rote. I know the language, I have heard it before. Think for yourself. Defend in your own words the issue of women in the church.

Tell me why YOU think that women should not be priests. What of the official positions are you willing to defend? Then we can have a real discussion and not one where you say how sorry you are that we are confused or angry or scared.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BTW we know the Catholic teaching on human sexuality. We did 12 years of school with priests and nuns. We went to mass six days a week for pretty much our entire childhoods. We can sing the Salve Regina in Latin. Eucharistic Adoration every first Friday. Said our rosaries in silence at the Carmelite monastery. I myself spent eight years studying under the nuns, four years with the Jesuits, and eight years in programs with Opus Dei. I have read my theologians and my encyclicals.

The idea that we are ignorant and "do not know" the teachings of the church and are "missing out" is a fantasy that makes you feel good. But it is false.

I'm sorry to hear that you are not ignorant, but defiant. If you are choosing not to follow God's plan, then you ARE missing out, because His plan must be perfect. Nothing about people being lost makes me feel good, and never could.

You sound upset, or maybe angry. You don't sound like you have peace. With all my heart, I hope that you find peace. Sometimes it is best to have the faith of a child. Trust God. Say your prayers. goodnight.

I'm not angry with God. I am angry at you because you patronize. You have characterized people who disagree with you ignorant, scared, angry. You said that it is sad that we don't know what the church really says, which is nonsense. You are happy to say that I defy "God's plan" merely because I disagree with the Church's teaching on women in the priesthood and contraception.

You have in short done everything except discuss and defend the actual premises behind these doctrines. This is something that I doubt you will do. Instead you will pray for me. It is more convenient for you. You don't have to challenge what you have been told. You get to patronize, and you sound really pious doing it.

[Anonymous]

I've left the church. My kids go to an episcopal school. It's a lovey community. Very similar to catholicism but without the kidf_ing.