s/o: if you're catholic, how do you deal with sticking by the church?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i was raised catholic and come from a deeply religious family. but seriously - the catholic church systematically allowed priests to touch little children while simultaneously holding believers accountable to rules that aren't even in the bible. they are literally allowing priests to have sex with children while telling married women they can't use birth control. the hypocrisy of it is blinding.

and as a side note that is not nearly as horrible but still annoying - how come priests preach poverty and the pope wears prada??

so if you're still catholic, how do you deal with this? i miss my religion but i am disgusted and i can't bring myself to return.

I think you need to have a little bit of understanding as to what actually occurred and how the church is fixing the situation.

Years ago when priests joined the Seminary they went at young ages. Some joined earlier in their lives than others did. They were sheltered in the seminary and this emotionally stunted them. They then went on to work in Parishes and were supposed to lead a congregation when they themselves were emotionally immature. If you look at most of the victims they are mostly male. They were mostly not prepubescent so they (the priests) are not technically pedophiles (not that this makes what they did less wrong). Most of the victims were closer to the age of the priest when he entered the seminary although there were some true pedophiles in the priesthood as well.

When priests were moved from church to church it was thought that removing the temptation would cure the priest. This was a common thought in psychiatric at the time as well. No one truly understood that removing the priest wouldn't stop the problem.

When the Church really understood what was going on and that there was no cure they started removing priests that they knew were sex offenders. Later, when there was enough evidence against a particular priest the police were involved. The Church is turning all suspected offenders over to the police at this point. There is a zero tolerance policy for such things.

The Church has also taken into account the emotional stunting of their priests and are forcing them to take a year off in the real world before being Ordained. This, in my opinion, a great decision. A potential priest can go and really experience the world as an adult and make the adult decision to finalize their choice.

You should also keep in mind that when the Church had the first majorly publicized lawsuit the Church settled and gave the victim millions of dollars. It wasn't long before the lawsuits started rolling in and the Church just kept handing out millions upon millions of dollars. The Church was just handing the money out and people just started lining up. Not every claim but it really didn't matter, the Church was tarnished, and the general hatred grew amongst the public in general.

Really, take a look at the OP and many of the other posters on this board. They have no tolerance for anyone that is Catholic.

Why am I staying with the Church? Well, I didn't for a long time. I recently starting going back because I believe in most of their teachings and because I wanted to give my children a religious foundation. They can later choose what they want for themselves, as I did.

It's interesting though, after years of people leaving church, the population is on the rise. Many Episcopalians are converting. One of my priests used to be an Episcopal priest and converted a few years back. He has a wife and kids. As a matter of fact, there is an entire church in Bladensburg that is converting.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/07/01/episcopal-church-in-maryland-converts-to-catholicism/

I guess, OP, that you don't see the prejudice in your own words and accusations. You also don't seem to know as much as you think you do about the very point you are arguing. You are spreading some of the misconceptions that you believed were true and factual.

My entire life (even when I left the Church) I have been surrounded by priests and nuns. I have never known one that has harmed a child or would harm a child. I have only known caring, loving, men and women, who were truly trying to do God's work. None of them lived flashy lives or wore Prada.

Emotionally stunted? Not "technically" a pedophile? You sound like a defense attorney.

You win for the most ridiculous post of the thread. And you also win for explaining how people stay with the church - by deluding themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Emotionally stunted? Not "technically" a pedophile? You sound like a defense attorney.

You win for the most ridiculous post of the thread. And you also win for explaining how people stay with the church - by deluding themselves.

You lose - for continuing to think that ad hominem attacks are the same thing as rational argument.

[Anonymous]

I come from a Catholic family. Catholic school from K - 12, uniforms, nuns, catechism, the whole 9 yards. Even as a young girl I felt angry and frustrated by the teachings of my faith. The Madonna/whore complex seemed apparent to me as early as third grade. Not that I had those terms for it. But what I felt to be the anti-female culture of my church really angered and hurt me. The "fact" that my non-Catholic uncle, the nicest man I knew, would not be going to heaven seemed wrong to me. The condemnation of birth control in poor countries where babies and mothers are dying struck me as wrong. Never mind the sex scandals. The wealth of the church compared to the poverty in the world. Limbo, Purgatory, Hell, excommunication, indulgences.... whether current doctrine or not, I saw the legacy of the tenents of my faith as often being without love. And in contradiction of Jesus' own teachings. I saw hypocrisy everywhere and hate codified as catechism.

I was so sickened by my church I was without religion for almost 20 years. My children started asking questions about religious issues and I found a Unitarian church. It is EXACTLY what I always needed in a religion. Everything I found so hurtful about my former faith is not a part of this one. And we can still do good for the poor, the sick, and those rejected by other faiths. I thank god for bringing me back to Her every day!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'm not angry with God. I am angry at you because you patronize. You have characterized people who disagree with you ignorant, scared, angry. You said that it is sad that we don't know what the church really says, which is nonsense. You are happy to say that I defy "God's plan" merely because I disagree with the Church's teaching on women in the priesthood and contraception.

You have in short done everything except discuss and defend the actual premises behind these doctrines. This is something that I doubt you will do. Instead you will pray for me. It is more convenient for you. You don't have to challenge what you have been told. You get to patronize, and you sound really pious doing it.

I'm sorry. I did not mean to patronize. I accept that you have come to your positions with full knowledge, and that I cannot know your heart. I would be glad to discuss and defend actual Church teaching. But let's start with one of the two issues you have with Church teaching: contraception.

Of course, it is impossible to address all of Church teaching regarding contraception here. And there are much better minds than mine who can discuss it with much greater authority. (I prefer people read the Catechism, or Humanae Vitae, or Pope John Paul II's Letter to Families, or Theology of the Body, or even Christopher West). But I will try to outline it briefly.

God created humanity in His image and likeness. He chose to make us male and female, so the complementarity of the sexes images God, and gives us a glimpse of Him. God is love. Not just that He loves us--He, in Himself, is love, in the relationship of the three Persons of the Trinity. Sex participates in the life and love of God, as the man gives himself freely as a gift to his wife, the wife gives herself freely as a gift to her husband, and the love between them is so real, with God, it could become another human being. As the Father loves the Son, the Son loves the Father, and the Love between them is so real, it is another Person, the Holy Spirit. So our finite, physical human sexuality can reveal something of the mystery of the infinite, spiritual God.

Sex is so wonderful, so amazing, and it is a gift from a loving God, as our way of expressing the free, total, faithful, and fruitful love that is God's love. This kind of love is marriage. Sex is a physical expression of marriage vows. Every time a husband and wife make love, they are renewing their marriage vows with their bodies. This union of body and soul is so vital, so important, that the analogy of Christ as the bridegroom of His Church is used throughout the bible. John Paul II called marriage the "primordial sacrament." Marriage, and the sexual love within it, could not be more foundational to our understanding of the love of God.

When a couple says their marriage vows at the altar, they promise freely to love each other, all of each other, totally and faithfully all of their lives, and to welcome whatever comes of their love. Each and every sexual act MUST say "I do" to EVERY part of those vows, or the act becomes a lie. A husband or wife cannot say, "I give you all of myself...except my fertility." Contraception turns a sacrament into a sacrilege.

Love is not whatever we want it to be. Love is to live according to how God made us. Love is self-giving, as Christ was self-giving. Love is giving ourselves freely, totally, faithfully, and fruitfully, as Christ gave Himself to us.

What do you think?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'm not angry with God. I am angry at you because you patronize. You have characterized people who disagree with you ignorant, scared, angry. You said that it is sad that we don't know what the church really says, which is nonsense. You are happy to say that I defy "God's plan" merely because I disagree with the Church's teaching on women in the priesthood and contraception.

You have in short done everything except discuss and defend the actual premises behind these doctrines. This is something that I doubt you will do. Instead you will pray for me. It is more convenient for you. You don't have to challenge what you have been told. You get to patronize, and you sound really pious doing it.

I'm sorry. I did not mean to patronize. I accept that you have come to your positions with full knowledge, and that I cannot know your heart. I would be glad to discuss and defend actual Church teaching. But let's start with one of the two issues you have with Church teaching: contraception.

Of course, it is impossible to address all of Church teaching regarding contraception here. And there are much better minds than mine who can discuss it with much greater authority. (I prefer people read the Catechism, or Humanae Vitae, or Pope John Paul II's Letter to Families, or Theology of the Body, or even Christopher West). But I will try to outline it briefly.

God created humanity in His image and likeness. He chose to make us male and female, so the complementarity of the sexes images God, and gives us a glimpse of Him. God is love. Not just that He loves us--He, in Himself, is love, in the relationship of the three Persons of the Trinity. Sex participates in the life and love of God, as the man gives himself freely as a gift to his wife, the wife gives herself freely as a gift to her husband, and the love between them is so real, with God, it could become another human being. As the Father loves the Son, the Son loves the Father, and the Love between them is so real, it is another Person, the Holy Spirit. So our finite, physical human sexuality can reveal something of the mystery of the infinite, spiritual God.

Sex is so wonderful, so amazing, and it is a gift from a loving God, as our way of expressing the free, total, faithful, and fruitful love that is God's love. This kind of love is marriage. Sex is a physical expression of marriage vows. Every time a husband and wife make love, they are renewing their marriage vows with their bodies. This union of body and soul is so vital, so important, that the analogy of Christ as the bridegroom of His Church is used throughout the bible. John Paul II called marriage the "primordial sacrament." Marriage, and the sexual love within it, could not be more foundational to our understanding of the love of God.

When a couple says their marriage vows at the altar, they promise freely to love each other, all of each other, totally and faithfully all of their lives, and to welcome whatever comes of their love. Each and every sexual act MUST say "I do" to EVERY part of those vows, or the act becomes a lie. A husband or wife cannot say, "I give you all of myself...except my fertility." Contraception turns a sacrament into a sacrilege.

Love is not whatever we want it to be. Love is to live according to how God made us. Love is self-giving, as Christ was self-giving. Love is giving ourselves freely, totally, faithfully, and fruitfully, as Christ gave Himself to us.

What do you think?

Not the poster you are responding to. I think that what your wrote is a beautiful, poetic expression of what sex can be. I think those human thinkers you cite have articulated a lovely idea of sexuality as sacrament. But I don't agree that GOD SAYS SO. I don't believe any human or any book speaks with the authority of God.

Speaking of famous church thinkers, wasn't it the theologian Aquinas sho said rape was a lesser sin than masterbation? Just pointing out that otherwise respected theologians and the ideas they come up with regarding sex or anything else can be.... flawed.

Unless Jesus said it, I don't buy it. So what did JESUS actually say in the Bible about the sacrament of sexual love?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think you are confusing me with another PP. Catholics who sin can still be faithful. I think most Catholics who disobey Church teaching are not deliberately, openly defiant, with full understanding and intent. They are usually mis/uninformed and confused, and it is not their fault, because no one taught them what they needed to know.For the very few who claim to know everything and still choose to disobey, AND refuse to reconcile, I can't know their motivations. It could be fear, or a lack of trust, or anger. Not a good place to be. But there is always hope for reconciliation.

For the subset of that small disobedient, unrepentant group who makes their deliberate, informed, free decision to disobey AND do so publicly? That is scandal. That is how you can excommunicate yourself. Not because the Church is mean, but because she respects everyone's free will. Anyone can choose to reject the truth of the faith completely. So then, by definition, one would no longer be Catholic, by choice.

Every single Christian denomination taught that contraception is intrinsically wrong until the 1930 Lamberth conference, when the Anglican church broke with this universal Christian teaching. So few people understand the doctrines about human sexuality...they are really quite beautiful, as they should be, since if you are Catholic, you believe they are God's own plan for sex.

Some things cannot change. If you cannot in good conscience accept essential Church teaching, that is between you and God. But you can't reasonably expect the Church to conform to your will.

Having grown up in a deeply Catholic family, including Cathloic school, I can say with 100% certainty that most Catholics use birth control, fully knowing it is againsy God's teachings.
My own mother, who is incredibly religious, had 5 children in 6 years. Then she went on the pill for 4. Then she had 3 kids in 4 years. Then my dad got a vasectomy. They talked with the priest about it, who actually fully understood their dilemma, as much as a celibate man with no wife can. He could not condone it, but did not codemn them either. So they were going against Catholic teaching (not God's word - just Church teaching - and yes, I've read Humanae Vitae) in full knowledge.
As for my husband and I, we are Episcopals. We use "natural family planning" because we are open to God's plan, and currently only have 2. Although I am not sure if "pull and pray" is really that much different than using a condom or pills or whatever in God's eyes, although the chances of pregnanacy are much higher.
And most Catholics I know had premarital sex. And most lie to the priest at pre-marital counseling saying they don't, just so they can get married in the church. And I believe most priests *know* they are having sex, but just don't pursue the answer.
So yes, many faithful Catholics fully and openly defy church teachings.
And yes, we can expect the Church to conform to our will. For how many centuries did the Catholic Church refuse to say Mass in the native language of believers? How about 12 centuries. It changed with Vatican II. And the funny thing is, in early Christian days, it was celebrated in native languages, and only got coverted to Latin later. And Jesus didn't speak Latin! So yes, the Church does change. It is slow. It is methodical. And it is at the whim of really old old men who have tacitly condoned pedophilia, never had a wife or children, and live in opulence, only seeing the poor masses from a bullet proof gold plated mobile booth, in which they wave at the poor masses like Miss America at her crowning.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, meant "most Catholics use birth control, fully knowing it is against the Church's teachings." And sorry for the typos.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So yes, many faithful Catholics fully and openly defy church teachings.

Well, to be accurate, they fully, but privately, defy church teachings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So yes, many faithful Catholics fully and openly defy church teachings.

Well, to be accurate, they fully, but privately, defy church teachings.

Do you only go to hell if you embarrass the church publicly, or can I expect to see only 2% of Catholic women up there when I die?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i was raised catholic and come from a deeply religious family. but seriously - the catholic church systematically allowed priests to touch little children while simultaneously holding believers accountable to rules that aren't even in the bible. they are literally allowing priests to have sex with children while telling married women they can't use birth control. the hypocrisy of it is blinding.

and as a side note that is not nearly as horrible but still annoying - how come priests preach poverty and the pope wears prada??

so if you're still catholic, how do you deal with this? i miss my religion but i am disgusted and i can't bring myself to return.

I think you need to have a little bit of understanding as to what actually occurred and how the church is fixing the situation.

Years ago when priests joined the Seminary they went at young ages. Some joined earlier in their lives than others did. They were sheltered in the seminary and this emotionally stunted them. They then went on to work in Parishes and were supposed to lead a congregation when they themselves were emotionally immature. If you look at most of the victims they are mostly male. They were mostly not prepubescent so they (the priests) are not technically pedophiles (not that this makes what they did less wrong). Most of the victims were closer to the age of the priest when he entered the seminary although there were some true pedophiles in the priesthood as well.

When priests were moved from church to church it was thought that removing the temptation would cure the priest. This was a common thought in psychiatric at the time as well. No one truly understood that removing the priest wouldn't stop the problem.

When the Church really understood what was going on and that there was no cure they started removing priests that they knew were sex offenders. Later, when there was enough evidence against a particular priest the police were involved. The Church is turning all suspected offenders over to the police at this point. There is a zero tolerance policy for such things.

The Church has also taken into account the emotional stunting of their priests and are forcing them to take a year off in the real world before being Ordained. This, in my opinion, a great decision. A potential priest can go and really experience the world as an adult and make the adult decision to finalize their choice.

You should also keep in mind that when the Church had the first majorly publicized lawsuit the Church settled and gave the victim millions of dollars. It wasn't long before the lawsuits started rolling in and the Church just kept handing out millions upon millions of dollars. The Church was just handing the money out and people just started lining up. Not every claim but it really didn't matter, the Church was tarnished, and the general hatred grew amongst the public in general.

Really, take a look at the OP and many of the other posters on this board. They have no tolerance for anyone that is Catholic.

Why am I staying with the Church? Well, I didn't for a long time. I recently starting going back because I believe in most of their teachings and because I wanted to give my children a religious foundation. They can later choose what they want for themselves, as I did.

It's interesting though, after years of people leaving church, the population is on the rise. Many Episcopalians are converting. One of my priests used to be an Episcopal priest and converted a few years back. He has a wife and kids. As a matter of fact, there is an entire church in Bladensburg that is converting.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/07/01/episcopal-church-in-maryland-converts-to-catholicism/

I guess, OP, that you don't see the prejudice in your own words and accusations. You also don't seem to know as much as you think you do about the very point you are arguing. You are spreading some of the misconceptions that you believed were true and factual.

My entire life (even when I left the Church) I have been surrounded by priests and nuns. I have never known one that has harmed a child or would harm a child. I have only known caring, loving, men and women, who were truly trying to do God's work. None of them lived flashy lives or wore Prada.

Emotionally stunted? Not "technically" a pedophile? You sound like a defense attorney.

You win for the most ridiculous post of the thread. And you also win for explaining how people stay with the church - by deluding themselves.

I agree with the prior PP. Basically what she is saying is that it was a gay problem and not a pedophile problem. How to stop that? Let priests get married.

[Anonymous]

I agree with the prior PP. Basically what she is saying is that it was a gay problem and not a pedophile problem. How to stop that? Let priests get married.

I totally disagree. Normal gay people do not have sex with children.

[Anonymous]

But it turned out not to be a gay problem. That surprised the bishops but it is in their own official report.

But let me point our this as we talk about historical views of pedophilia. Molestation always was a sex crime. And covering up a crime is illegal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I agree with the prior PP. Basically what she is saying is that it was a gay problem and not a pedophile problem. How to stop that? Let priests get married.

I totally disagree. Normal gay people do not have sex with children.

"Children" is a broad term. Young priests having sex with teenage alter boys are not pedophiles.

I am a male. If I were a 23 year old high school guidance counsel having sex with 16 and 17 year old female high school students, what would that make me?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So yes, many faithful Catholics fully and openly defy church teachings.

Well, to be accurate, they fully, but privately, defy church teachings.

Do you only go to hell if you embarrass the church publicly, or can I expect to see only 2% of Catholic women up there when I die?

I don't know about hell, but I do know that if your children are in Archdioscese of Washington schools, parents are now required to sign a statement vowing that they will NOT publicly repudiate church teachings. It's OK to violate them privately, but don't speak against them publicly if you wish your child tpo remain in a Catholic school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I agree with the prior PP. Basically what she is saying is that it was a gay problem and not a pedophile problem. How to stop that? Let priests get married.

I totally disagree. Normal gay people do not have sex with children.

"Children" is a broad term. Young priests having sex with teenage alter boys are not pedophiles.

I am a male. If I were a 23 year old high school guidance counsel having sex with 16 and 17 year old female high school students, what would that make me?

at my school?
basically a leper