s/o: if you're catholic, how do you deal with sticking by the church?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see a distinction here. What is the Catholic Church to the practicing and fallen-away Catholics here? Because it is supposed to be the bastion of God's own Truth, instituted by Christ and protected by the Holy Spirit.

If that is so, then the Church does not bend to the times, because it is eternal. It may be made up of fallen and sinful people, but it protects the Truth.

So if you say it is your faith, then you accept it as true. If you struggle with believing, you struggle, but then you either submit or you reject it. Since you are human, you will sin and doubt and disobey...but then you can either reconcile, or you can stay defiant. You have free will. But you need to own your decisions.

This thread is an opportunity. A chance to reexamine your faith. Have you ever actually read the Catechism? Have you ever actually read an encyclical? Or an apostolic letter? They are amazing. If you read them and study them and still think they are wrong, then be honest and say, "I do not believe. This is not my faith."

But before you walk away, ask yourself, is this just a hard truth? Like when Jesus explained the Eucharist, or his coming death, and his disciples walked away. And Jesus asked the ones who stayed if they were going to leave, too. And Peter said, "to whom would we go? You have the words of everlasting life."

What is worth dying for? A gathering if like- minded people? Or the truth that God loves us, forgives us, holds us close, understands our troubles and struggles, reconciled us to Him, and gave us natural law for our benefit, and not to be mean?

I have read my catechism, both old and new. I have read both the us bishops and Vatican letters, the encyclicals, you name it. There are good things in there. But leaving the church is not the same as leaving Jesus. And a good encyclical does not make up for church abuses.

Jesus rejected the holy men of his day for their hypocrisy. And although he gave Peter the keys to the kingdom, I doubt he had in mind what so many popes have done in the name of God.

Absolutely, there have been evil popes, evil priests, and evil Catholics from all walks of life. But look at the teachings of the Church, not the people. It is miraculous that the Truths of the faith have survived the horrible actions of the believers, isn't it? THAT is what Jesus promised, that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church.

I don't see how the tenets of faith justify the institution. One can believe in almost the entire catechism without being part of the Roman Catholic Church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't see how the tenets of faith justify the institution. One can believe in almost the entire catechism without being part of the Roman Catholic Church.

That's true, you can believe. But how do you then practice that faith?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't see how the tenets of faith justify the institution. One can believe in almost the entire catechism without being part of the Roman Catholic Church.

"almost" is a big word, PP.

[Anonymous]

Let me ask an honest question: does modern day Catholicism teach that you need to access Jesus only through a priest? Can you confess directly to God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit?

Actually, we go directly to Jesus for confession in every single mass: "I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do..."

Confession to a priest is important as well. And it can be very healing. Typically, it's more of a counseling session. You tell the priest what you are struggling with and he offers suggestions. And then of course forgiveness and sometimes penance. A priests authority to hear confession is based on Christ's words to Peter,

"whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

You don't have to confess to a priest. But it's the best way to do it. It can be an incredibly healing experience.

Do you understand why some women feel more comfortable in a Protestant denomination where they can assume leadership roles?

There are plenty of opportunities for women to serve in leadership roles in the Catholic Church.

[Anonymous]

"There are plenty of opportunities for women to serve in leadership roles in the Catholic Church. "

But in roles less important than the clergy, correct?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Let me ask an honest question: does modern day Catholicism teach that you need to access Jesus only through a priest? Can you confess directly to God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit?

Actually, we go directly to Jesus for confession in every single mass: "I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do..."

Confession to a priest is important as well. And it can be very healing. Typically, it's more of a counseling session. You tell the priest what you are struggling with and he offers suggestions. And then of course forgiveness and sometimes penance. A priests authority to hear confession is based on Christ's words to Peter,

"whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

You don't have to confess to a priest. But it's the best way to do it. It can be an incredibly healing experience.

You do have to confess to a priest to recieve the sacrament of Penance. And you are supposed to do it at least once a year, correct? You need the priest to offer absolution and to impose your your penance. The priest, or bishop, is ESSENTIAL to confession -- you cannot have confession without them

1456 Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance: "All mortal sins of which penitents after a diligent self-examination are conscious must be recounted by them in confession, even if they are most secret and have been committed against the last two precepts of the Decalogue; for these sins sometimes wound the soul more grievously and are more dangerous than those which are committed openly."54

1457 According to the Church's command, "after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year."56 Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession.57 Children must go to the sacrament of Penance before receiving Holy Communion for the first time.58

1460 The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent's personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him."63

VIII. THE MINISTER OF THIS SACRAMENT

1461 Since Christ entrusted to his apostles the ministry of reconciliation,65 bishops who are their successors, and priests, the bishops' collaborators, continue to exercise this ministry. Indeed bishops and priests, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, have the power to forgive all sins "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

1462 Forgiveness of sins brings reconciliation with God, but also with the Church. Since ancient times the bishop, visible head of a particular Church, has thus rightfully been considered to be the one who principally has the power and ministry of reconciliation: he is the moderator of the penitential discipline.66 Priests, his collaborators, exercise it to the extent that they have received the commission either from their bishop (or religious superior) or the Pope, according to the law of the Church.67

1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.69

1464 Priests must encourage the faithful to come to the sacrament of Penance and must make themselves available to celebrate this sacrament each time Christians reasonably ask for it.70

1465 When he celebrates the sacrament of Penance, the priest is fulfilling the ministry of the Good Shepherd who seeks the lost sheep, of the Good Samaritan who binds up wounds, of the Father who awaits the prodigal son and welcomes him on his return, and of the just and impartial judge whose judgment is both just and merciful. The priest is the sign and the instrument of God's merciful love for the sinner.

1466 The confessor is not the master of God's forgiveness, but its servant. The minister of this sacrament should unite himself to the intention and charity of Christ.71 He should have a proven knowledge of Christian behavior, experience of human affairs, respect and sensitivity toward the one who has fallen; he must love the truth, be faithful to the Magisterium of the Church, and lead the penitent with patience toward healing and full maturity. He must pray and do penance for his penitent, entrusting him to the Lord's mercy.

1467 Given the delicacy and greatness of this ministry and the respect due to persons, the Church declares that every priest who hears confessions is bound under very severe penalties to keep absolute secrecy regarding the sins that his penitents have confessed to him. He can make no use of knowledge that confession gives him about penitents' lives.72 This secret, which admits of no exceptions, is called the "sacramental seal," because what the penitent has made known to the priest remains "sealed" by the sacrament.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"There are plenty of opportunities for women to serve in leadership roles in the Catholic Church. "

But in roles less important than the clergy, correct?

The Virgin Mary plays a central role in Catholicism. She is honored, revered and much beloved.

While women/girls can't be priests or say mass they can be Nuns, Eucharistic ministers, alter servers -- there are many roles women serve not only in the mass but in the Church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"There are plenty of opportunities for women to serve in leadership roles in the Catholic Church. "

But in roles less important than the clergy, correct?

The Virgin Mary plays a central role in Catholicism. She is honored, revered and much beloved.

While women/girls can't be priests or say mass they can be Nuns, Eucharistic ministers, alter servers -- there are many roles women serve not only in the mass but in the Church.

Oh, please. This is such the party line.

The fact remains that women cannot be in positions of authority. About the best you can do is run a hospital as a nun. But you are answerable to a man, and you can never become that man.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh, please. This is such the party line.

The fact remains that women cannot be in positions of authority. About the best you can do is run a hospital as a nun. But you are answerable to a man, and you can never become that man.

Look, we can go round and round on this. Literally hundreds of millions of Catholics in the world. Guessing that at least half are women. So, apparently either a.) most of these women are fine with this and don't feel subjugated in the practice of their faith; or b.) they don't like it, but don't find it to be problematic enough to let it take away from their fundamental Catholic faith.

[Anonymous]

Seriously if you want women to be priets -- then don't be Catholic.

If you want to drink alcohol -- don't be Mormon.

If you don't want a gays to be ordained......

The list could go on. It isn't like people don't know that women can't say mass when becoming Catholic or drink alcohol if they are Mormon. It is part of the religion. Don't chose it if you don't want. It is your choice why not let others have their choice too?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh, please. This is such the party line.

The fact remains that women cannot be in positions of authority. About the best you can do is run a hospital as a nun. But you are answerable to a man, and you can never become that man.

Look, we can go round and round on this. Literally hundreds of millions of Catholics in the world. Guessing that at least half are women. So, apparently either a.) most of these women are fine with this and don't feel subjugated in the practice of their faith; or b.) they don't like it, but don't find it to be problematic enough to let it take away from their fundamental Catholic faith.

I don't know what there is to go round and round about. Women do not have the opportunity to lead the church. Lots of women put up with it, but women put up with lots of crappy things, all over the world. Submission is not much of a defense.

In fact there is serious dissatisfaction with church policy as reflected in polls, which you can see excerpted in these articles:
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2010/11/04/poll-most-irish-catholic-women-do-not-feel-valued-by-the-church/
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/05/us/05poll.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/13/catholics-ordain-women-scotland-cardinal
http://www.womenpriests.org/traditio/dynamic.asp
http://cta-usa.org/media/Media-Savannah-PressRelease-Apr11.pdf
http://feministlawprofs.law.sc.edu/?p=844
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2004702,00.html

Then there is the poll data that says why people are leaving the church, and surprise women's issues are a big driver, from birth control to how women are treated in the church generally.
http://pewforum.org/Faith-in-Flux(3).aspx

Lastly, we even have a handful of women who attempted to become ordained in open defiance of the Vatican.

Ask yourself why. Why is a woman not allowed to be a priest or a bishop? Do you actually buy the Declaration by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith under John XXIII? Do you buy Ordinatio Sacerdotalis? Have you read the documents and do you believe them?

[Anonymous]

Here's an interesting question: why are the Boy Scouts criticized for doing the very thing that the Catholic Church is criticized for not doing? While the Church looked the other way as certain priests sexually abused altar boys, sweeping serious misconduct under the rug and repeatedly reassigning perpetrators, the Scouts did something different. They rigorously tried to screen out adult volunteers who showed gay or pedophile tendencies, to protect the boys in Scouting. Although there have been reported instances of misconduct involving adults and scouts, such instances have been comparatively few. Yet the BSA is roundly criticized for being "homophobic," while the Church is criticized for overlooking the sexual proclivities of priests.
Seems like a double standard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Seriously if you want women to be priets -- then don't be Catholic.

If you want to drink alcohol -- don't be Mormon.

If you don't want a gays to be ordained......

The list could go on. It isn't like people don't know that women can't say mass when becoming Catholic or drink alcohol if they are Mormon. It is part of the religion. Don't chose it if you don't want. It is your choice why not let others have their choice too?

Well this argument is such a farce. If American Catholics followed your advice, 98% of Catholic women would be gone from the Church:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/13/us-contraceptives-religion-idUSTRE73C7W020110413

If you can't get on board with natural family planning, you don't deserve to be Catholic, according to your own logic. So then the only Catholics in the US will be the old ladies and the spinsters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Seriously if you want women to be priets -- then don't be Catholic.

If you want to drink alcohol -- don't be Mormon.

If you don't want a gays to be ordained......

The list could go on. It isn't like people don't know that women can't say mass when becoming Catholic or drink alcohol if they are Mormon. It is part of the religion. Don't chose it if you don't want. It is your choice why not let others have their choice too?

Well this argument is such a farce. If American Catholics followed your advice, 98% of Catholic women would be gone from the Church:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/13/us-contraceptives-religion-idUSTRE73C7W020110413

If you can't get on board with natural family planning, you don't deserve to be Catholic, according to your own logic. So then the only Catholics in the US will be the old ladies and the spinsters.

So I'm guessing you don't know any of the young, vibrant, beautiful Catholic families who are choosing to live according to the Church's teachings on contraception? I guess you don't really get out very much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's an interesting question: why are the Boy Scouts criticized for doing the very thing that the Catholic Church is criticized for not doing? While the Church looked the other way as certain priests sexually abused altar boys, sweeping serious misconduct under the rug and repeatedly reassigning perpetrators, the Scouts did something different. They rigorously tried to screen out adult volunteers who showed gay or pedophile tendencies, to protect the boys in Scouting. Although there have been reported instances of misconduct involving adults and scouts, such instances have been comparatively few. Yet the BSA is roundly criticized for being "homophobic," while the Church is criticized for overlooking the sexual proclivities of priests.
Seems like a double standard.

Well it is the gay part that got the boy scouts into trouble. But as it turns out, gay priests did not molest children at greater rates than straight priests, so it isn't relevant in either case.

http://www.ourdailythread.org/content/report-finds-gay-priests-not-blame-catholic-abuse-crisis

This is from the report commissioned by the Church, which is no friend to gay people.