Ivy outcomes are often just, well, average

[Anonymous]

I want to make clear that OP is confusing "average" with "low-paying". The jobs that help the most people and "change the world" are usually not very well paid. My husband has an MD and a PhD and is a research scientist. The pay is not good, but your cancer treatments may be better for his contributions. A lot of these jobs are labors of love.

Have some respect, OP.

[Anonymous]

Of course a lot of ivy+ grads do average things. But studies have shown that ivy+ leads to a higher chance of success at the margins compared to those who could have but did not attend such schools. Specifically, top-level graduate and professional(JD, MD) programs and high-end jobs. Part of this is because certain jobs preferentially recruit at ivy+. Part is unknown.
After having a student at an ivy, attending a different ivy, and having a student at a flagship, the environments are quite different and that accounts for a segment of the disparity seen by the studies comparing similar-level students. When peers are almost all 98-99%ile types, the “norm” on campus is that it is common to go to med school or T14 law. Students at these schools see their peers a year or two ahead get in. It is seen as doable and a normal path. Same with getting top summer internships. Yet when you are a student at a flagship it is considered rare and difficult to get into med or law. Everyone works at their pool or the coffee shop or nannies the first two summers. The norms of what is seen as achievable are lower. Consequently even top students who are ivy-caliber often do not think they have a chance at competitive options and do not try. Also, the norm is to repeat calc and many other classes while ivy+ schools the norm is start in as high a level as possible. The transcripts of students in stem at ivy+ and a couple others have sophomores taking what other schools do as juniors. It makes a difference for paid summer stem internships! The sophomores who get them are more likely from top schools, making their resume the next summer stand out even more. The funds at ivy+ are extensive, often leading to more paid resume-building options as early as after freshman year. The advantages of an ivy+ are compounded over time. I have seen it first hand, versus a flagship. It is hard to believe until you see it for yourself with your kids

[Anonymous]

Jealous, OP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to Yale and deliberately became a high school teacher. On purpose because I wanted to. Yale was fun and I got a good education. And, I got a really fantastic husband. 10 out of 10. Would recommend.

We have a lot of teachers in the Boston area from Harvard. My son had a special ed teacher in elementary school who graduated from Harvard and he was a saint. Brilliant, patient, dedicated, all around amazing. He was made for the job. He made a huge difference in my son’s life and made school a little more bearable for him.

This is so amazing. My sister is a kindergarten teacher with an Ivy degree and loves her job.

These highly educated teachers make a big difference in the quality of life of kids. These kids grow into adulthood and never forget these teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I want to make clear that OP is confusing "average" with "low-paying". The jobs that help the most people and "change the world" are usually not very well paid. My husband has an MD and a PhD and is a research scientist. The pay is not good, but your cancer treatments may be better for his contributions. A lot of these jobs are labors of love.

Have some respect, OP.

Research scientists are on my top 5 of most respected jobs. I am in awe of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I want to make clear that OP is confusing "average" with "low-paying". The jobs that help the most people and "change the world" are usually not very well paid. My husband has an MD and a PhD and is a research scientist. The pay is not good, but your cancer treatments may be better for his contributions. A lot of these jobs are labors of love.

Have some respect, OP.

Op is poorly educated and has a limited intellect based on the quality of their analysis and their belief in the universality of their narrow experience.

[Anonymous]

Op, you literally came here to sh*t on well-educated researchers and high school teachers? We should be doing the opposite. These people are the best of society. Every single Ivy-educated researcher and teacher could get a higher paying job but loves what they do and are changing lives. They aren’t “average,” they are the best of humanity and we should be encouraging more of this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have met multiple ivy degree holders working jobs in high school education, middling research depts, "self employed" scrapping by. Sure there are some high profile ivy leaguers but in the end many end up in same jobs as middling t200 degree holders.

The correct way to view outcome is to think of two Bell curves representing the distribution of outcomes of Ivy graduates and t200 graduates. It is without question that the Ivy Bell curve has a mean that is higher than that of the t200 Bell curve. Both Bell curves have tails representing good and bad outliers (Ivy grads driving Uber/stocking shelves, Ivy grads becoming prominent techies/politicians, t200 grads doing the same). Both Bell curves overlap so you see Ivy and t200 grads working the same role in the same office, creating the misleading impression that the outcomes are similar. What most "local observations" fail to capture is the fact that the Ivy Bell curve is to the right of the t200 Bell curve, suggesting that for any given percentile, Ivy grads in that percentile have better outcomes than those from t200.

I’m not entirely sure this is the case; i don’t have the study handy, but recall reading somewhere that, conditional on being admitted to an Ivy, the outcomes are basically the same wherever you go. (I.e., kids who were admitted to Ivies but ended up going elsewhere for whatever reason had basically the same outcomes as those who went.). To a first cut, it’s the talent of the kid that drives the outcome. That said, it’s certainly true that for certain prestige-sensitive pathways going to an Ivy makes a huge difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op, you literally came here to sh*t on well-educated researchers and high school teachers? We should be doing the opposite. These people are the best of society. Every single Ivy-educated researcher and teacher could get a higher paying job but loves what they do and are changing lives. They aren’t “average,” they are the best of humanity and we should be encouraging more of this.

THANK you. I agree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to Yale and deliberately became a high school teacher. On purpose because I wanted to. Yale was fun and I got a good education. And, I got a really fantastic husband. 10 out of 10. Would recommend.

We have a lot of teachers in the Boston area from Harvard. My son had a special ed teacher in elementary school who graduated from Harvard and he was a saint. Brilliant, patient, dedicated, all around amazing. He was made for the job. He made a huge difference in my son’s life and made school a little more bearable for him.

This is so amazing. My sister is a kindergarten teacher with an Ivy degree and loves her job.

These highly educated teachers make a big difference in the quality of life of kids. These kids grow into adulthood and never forget these teachers.

A great teacher is a great teacher. The most beloved, intelligent, make-a-difference teacher at my kid’s school went to VCU. The Ivy educated ones don’t get extra points just because they could have made more money. In many cases, they’re able to make less because of family wealth or a high earning spouse.

[Anonymous]

One of my dearest friends went to Harvard and is an elementary school teacher. She is brilliant and this is her passion. She also has an advanced degree in special ed. I would have LOVED for her to teach my kids. She is amazing. Grow up, OP. Not everyone wants to do investment banking or law. She has a trust fund and was a legacy, so money isn’t an issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I want to make clear that OP is confusing "average" with "low-paying". The jobs that help the most people and "change the world" are usually not very well paid. My husband has an MD and a PhD and is a research scientist. The pay is not good, but your cancer treatments may be better for his contributions. A lot of these jobs are labors of love.

Have some respect, OP.

Says a SAHM

[Anonymous]

This thread is really two debates in one.

1. Is your Ivy degree wasted if you earn a middle-class salary, or achieve anything short of extraordinary success in your field? Answer: no.

2. Does it make sense for donut hole parents to borrow $100k plus to send their high-stats kids to Ivies over going in-state to a highly-respected but much more affordable public T50? Answer: also no.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I want to make clear that OP is confusing "average" with "low-paying". The jobs that help the most people and "change the world" are usually not very well paid. My husband has an MD and a PhD and is a research scientist. The pay is not good, but your cancer treatments may be better for his contributions. A lot of these jobs are labors of love.

Have some respect, OP.

Yeah and also jobs that change the world are not always high profile. I have a very satisfying job in which I can really help people. I'm very happy with it. Am I famous? No. High profile? No? What the OP would consider average? Quite possibly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread is really two debates in one.

1. Is your Ivy degree wasted if you earn a middle-class salary, or achieve anything short of extraordinary success in your field? Answer: no.

2. Does it make sense for donut hole parents to borrow $100k plus to send their high-stats kids to Ivies over going in-state to a highly-respected but much more affordable public T50? Answer: also no.

This assumes job outcomes are the only reason to go to college. Umm, how about the quality of the education????

Signed,

an Ivy grad with a job that OP might consider average but who would do it all again in a heartbeat because I value education