Ivy outcomes are often just, well, average

[Anonymous]

I remember going to an info session about consulting my senior year of college with a friend. We walked out during a break in the middle. We thought the idea of flying around a bunch of people our age to "solve hard problems" for industries we knew nothing about because we were the "best and brightest" was a bunch of BS.

Are we the most successful? Noooooo! That friend was a missionary for a few years, then I think she became a stay at home mom for a while, then unfortunately we fell out of touch. I work in public lands, where nobody gets rich. But I don't think we were *wrong* either.

[Anonymous]

I'm an Ivy grad. Not sure what you think we should be doing, but I'm in a low profile job but with high social impact that helps a lot of people. And I have an incredible amount of freedom as I do it. Is that average in your opinion? I could not care less.

Most of my classmates would probably be ordinary in your view, but highly successful in general. Doctors, lawyers, creative types, authors, professors, etc. Some are in elected office from local to very high up.

There are quite a few bold names both from my class year and from my school that I read about in the papers. Is that just "average"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know several female Harvard grads who quit promising careers to be SAHMs or mommy tracked. My point is that they still have the same issues as the rest of us. A Harvard degree doesn’t shield you from that.

I have a HYP degree and I would agree. I had a special needs kid so I was a SAHM because that's what life required. I didn't plan that but life happens, even to us Ivy grads! I'm not superwoman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have met multiple ivy degree holders working jobs in high school education, middling research depts, "self employed" scrapping by. Sure there are some high profile ivy leaguers but in the end many end up in same jobs as middling t200 degree holders.

Maybe one of these Ivy league degree holders can explain the difference between an anecdote and data to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think having Ivy degree opens doors.

I've seen my friends with Ivy diplomas get offered job interviews they might not otherwise have gotten if they had a middling university diploma listed in their CV. So even if the jobs are average.... they are protected from job loss during economic downturns in ways that others might not be.

This is important!

How so? I am hearing the opposite. Many Ivy are too embarrassed to admit they are underemployed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It has always been like this. Many ivy graduates struggle like anyone else to land their first job or work in their desired career field. This can leave such persons angry at the hard grind they chose versus going to a more balanced school where you can have some life outside the grind.

There is something to be said about going to a lower stress school and rocking it there versus the Ivies's souless grind.

Ivies are not a soulless grind

The soulless grind was BEFORE we got into college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have met multiple ivy degree holders working jobs in high school education, middling research depts, "self employed" scrapping by. Sure there are some high profile ivy leaguers but in the end many end up in same jobs as middling t200 degree holders.

The correct way to view outcome is to think of two Bell curves representing the distribution of outcomes of Ivy graduates and t200 graduates. It is without question that the Ivy Bell curve has a mean that is higher than that of the t200 Bell curve. Both Bell curves have tails representing good and bad outliers (Ivy grads driving Uber/stocking shelves, Ivy grads becoming prominent techies/politicians, t200 grads doing the same). Both Bell curves overlap so you see Ivy and t200 grads working the same role in the same office, creating the misleading impression that the outcomes are similar. What most "local observations" fail to capture is the fact that the Ivy Bell curve is to the right of the t200 Bell curve, suggesting that for any given percentile, Ivy grads in that percentile have better outcomes than those from t200.

The real question is whether someone who has the qualities to be accepted to an Ivy but chooses to go elsewhere does worse. I think majority of the reason the Ivy Bell curve may be to the right is because the student qualifications fall to the right as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ivies have always been primarily for the wealthy, athletes and nepos. If you are not one of those with a ivy degree, it's just a degree same as from State U.

+1 this

[Anonymous]

Op, what is middling research? Scientific research?

[Anonymous]

I did not read all the responses, but when studies have been done looking at students who did and did not get into Ivy+ schools off the wait list, it shows that on average those who do get in have higher earnings but that is really driven by a larger share at the top extreme of income (but that top extreme is still relatively rare). so some people experience a big benefit and most people don't.

https://forklightning.substack.com/p/the-lottery-for-high-paying-jobs
Think of it like winning the lottery. Suppose I told you and 9 of your closest friends that one of your group of 10 was going to win a prize - let’s say $1 million. But I don’t divide the tickets evenly. Since you attended an Ivy-Plus college, you get 2 tickets. Friends who attended a selective public university get one ticket, and those who didn’t go to college get none. Your odds are double anyone else’s, but you still probably won’t win. I increased your expected earnings. Going to an Ivy-Plus college gives you more chances to hit the jackpot. But among non-jackpot winners, things look pretty similar regardless of where you went to college.

[Anonymous]

I don't know if you are right, but your assumptin that a good education is about making money as a metric of success is not one everyone shares. I don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I guess op is talking about people like me. It's fine that you have no idea how competitive my middling research job was! Would it be nice to have more money like many many of my classmates? Yeah, sure, on many occasions. But then my day to day would mean doing something less exciting for me at the least, and possibly selling my soul if I went down certain paths. So, I'm good where I am.

I agree. For me, an Ivy degree -- HYP FWIW -- has meant more opportunities to sell my soul, and I suspect more opportunities to not have to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have met multiple ivy degree holders working jobs in high school education, middling research depts, "self employed" scrapping by. Sure there are some high profile ivy leaguers but in the end many end up in same jobs as middling t200 degree holders.

The correct way to view outcome is to think of two Bell curves representing the distribution of outcomes of Ivy graduates and t200 graduates. It is without question that the Ivy Bell curve has a mean that is higher than that of the t200 Bell curve. Both Bell curves have tails representing good and bad outliers (Ivy grads driving Uber/stocking shelves, Ivy grads becoming prominent techies/politicians, t200 grads doing the same). Both Bell curves overlap so you see Ivy and t200 grads working the same role in the same office, creating the misleading impression that the outcomes are similar. What most "local observations" fail to capture is the fact that the Ivy Bell curve is to the right of the t200 Bell curve, suggesting that for any given percentile, Ivy grads in that percentile have better outcomes than those from t200.

This.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm an Ivy grad. Not sure what you think we should be doing, but I'm in a low profile job but with high social impact that helps a lot of people. And I have an incredible amount of freedom as I do it. Is that average in your opinion? I could not care less.

Most of my classmates would probably be ordinary in your view, but highly successful in general. Doctors, lawyers, creative types, authors, professors, etc. Some are in elected office from local to very high up.

There are quite a few bold names both from my class year and from my school that I read about in the papers. Is that just "average"?

Which job?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think having Ivy degree opens doors.

I've seen my friends with Ivy diplomas get offered job interviews they might not otherwise have gotten if they had a middling university diploma listed in their CV. So even if the jobs are average.... they are protected from job loss during economic downturns in ways that others might not be.

This is important!

How so? I am hearing the opposite. Many Ivy are too embarrassed to admit they are underemployed.

PP you replied to. One of my friends does not work, by choice. But occasionally when she feels the interest, she interviews for jobs and always gets them. Another of my friends was let go in her 60s. She wants to continue working in her field, but at that age, for a woman, age discrimination is rampant. I don't think anyone except someone with an Ivy degree would have gotten the many interviews she's gotten. This is how people with Ivy degrees have an advantage and some protection against joblessness that the rest of us do not have.