A very uncomfortable situation- how to handle

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:no thanks to any friend that supports, votes for, funds, or “feels connected” to ethnosupremacism, whether American, Muslim, Hindu, or otherwise.

Being Jewish should have no bearing on what is happening in Gaza, Israeli policies and actions, or the new conflict this week. Critical thinking! And that is the entire point here. You keep trying to conflate the two concepts, and that's where all the "uncomfortableness" is coming from.

I’m the perfect person above (thanks) and I 100% agree with you. Assumptions should NOT be made about a person because they are Jewish, full stop.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am not Jewish, and I am completely against the genocidal actions of Israel.

I think this woman and many like her have really struggled after a lifetime of brainwashing and cognitive dissonance. It's okay to disagree with her politically and yet to empathize with her distress. You feel for your friend, and it's okay to reach out to her.

This is not a religious issue, though it's close to her due to her religious identity.

Wow yeah ok: “Your belief that you experienced antisemitism is all in your head - the Jews brainwashed you.”

OP hopefully comments like this can make you understand why this woman noped out. Even if the comments were just about Gaza and couldn’t be seen any other way, she had no way of knowing what kind of bizarrely offensive comment might pop out of the mouth of someone who would never make the equivalent comment about other groups. Maybe she just did not want to take that risk at that moment.

FWIW, I (also Jewish) read that "brainwashing" line as referring to brainwashing about Israel, not brainwashing about antisemitism.

I don’t believe you are Jewish. You thought the comment “The Jews brainwashed you” is an okay statement? Can you share another group that you think that would be okay to say that to/about?

Sure. I am the PP you’re addressing, and I’ve heard a lot of Jews say it about their own Hebrew school education’s treatment of Israel — I happen to disagree with them, but the phrase is used relatively often lately.

[Anonymous]

You could say it about any religious education and it wouldn’t be out of place in this forum.

[Anonymous]

Good for her knowing her boundaries and leaving. The racism and gaslighting in these comments is not surprising, but awful just the same. If you value the friendship, reach out. If not, don’t. She will make whatever judgments are necessary for her safety and well-being.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who elects these democratic governments? What to say of the values of those who elect their government officials?

This is a bad argument. Our president right now is Trump, but I don't want anyone judging me and my values (or American values as a whole) based on how horrible he is. For that matter, Hamas was elected, but you wouldn't want us to assume that the citizens of Gaza are all terrorists who value the death of Jews over their own wellbeing. And, if you weren't paying attention before 10/7 (which most people weren't), Israel went through MANY elections that ended without forming a successful government before they ended up with the current government, and even then, there were massive protests against Bibi, court reform, etc. And there continue to be protests.

To get back to OP's question, many Jews have conflicted feelings about what's happening in Israel, especially as the war has dragged on, as hostages remain for 621 days, and there doesn't seem to be real metrics by which peace could be attained. I have had real conversations about my feelings on the war with people I trust in settings conducive to thoughtful discussion. But I'm certainly not going to have that conversation in a public place at brunch with an aggressive pseudo-friend; none of that invites serious, meaningful dialogue. I would absolutely feel ambushed and attacked in that situation, especially after the shooting in DC and the firebombing in Boulder. As a Jew, I would appreciate OP reaching out (by text is fine). You don't have to agree about Israel; I wouldn't even go there, since the Jewish friend was so upset by the conversation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Good for her knowing her boundaries and leaving. The racism and gaslighting in these comments is not surprising, but awful just the same. If you value the friendship, reach out. If not, don’t. She will make whatever judgments are necessary for her safety and well-being.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good for her knowing her boundaries and leaving. The racism and gaslighting in these comments is not surprising, but awful just the same. If you value the friendship, reach out. If not, don’t. She will make whatever judgments are necessary for her safety and well-being.

+1

Gaslighting? Racism? Where and when? The woman left because she didn't like anyone criticizing Israel. That's called boundaries? That's called a poor debater. Maybe she could have added to the conversation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would call her OP. She obviously felt very isolated. I am Catholic and am in a circle that's about half Jewish, with the other half mostly non practicing Catholics and protestants. We are close enough that we talk deeply about any and all issues.

But my Jewish friends feel the sting of antisemitism constantly (not from our group but other communities to which they belong). Many identify strongly with Israel. It is very difficult to have a conversation about Israel without sounding antisemitic.

I would call her and just listen. I'm sure she feels isolated and unsure of her place in this group.

This is only a problem because of people who shut down any criticism of Israel with allegations of antisemitism.

Just like America can (and should) be heavily criticized right now, so should Israel. We shouldn’t have to all tiptoe around discussing genocide because some people are very attached to their home (or ancestral) country.

And yes, antisemitism does absolutely still exist. There are crazy people who will horribly use what is going on in Gaza to harm civilian Jews / Israelis in America. That should absolutely be condemned and discussed.

But right now it feels like the only sentiment you’re allowed to express is complete support for Israel lest your Jewish friends get upset (obviously they’re not a monolith but many in my first hand experience). I have quite a few Jewish friends and follow some Jewish content creators and they are very easily triggered by any support for Gazans and have written lengthy social media posts accusing anyone who feels bad for Gazans as being a horrible person who cannot be their friend anymore. I think it’s crazy but I don’t engage because hearts and minds won’t be changed. But it does make me think less of them that they they are using their own discrimination as a shield to then support harm to others.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am friends with a group from my sons school. We get together once a month for lunch or dinner.

So happens we went out for lunch today for our monthly get together. We are a real mix of personalities. Of the 8 of us, 2 are Jewish the rest are mixed religions. We all never bring up politics or religion as an unspoken rule however today the most outspoken of the bunch came out and blasted Israel for what they are doing. She really unloaded, once she got started, she didn't let up (with encouragement from others). We were all kind of surprised and in shock at first. One of the moms (Jewish) is married to a christian husband and is not religious and was one of the first to agree. Then a few others did too. The other Jewish mom however did not take this well. She started to defend whats going on then abruptly got up and said she had to leave early.

Of all the moms, shes the one I am the least close with but I feel badly for how it went. I want to call her just to see how shes doing because I know it was upsetting to her. Not to say I agree with her at all but shes human and no doubt felt really outnumbered as the "ringleader" came on really strong. Should I call or leave it alone?

It sounds like she's uncomfortable with truth. It might be time for her to wake up to reality, even if it's uncomfortable. It doesn't sound like she was targeted or blamed because she's Jewish (and she should absolutely not be), but ethically, walking away when you feel uncomfortable is a bit childish. There are so many Jews of conscience who abhor what Israel is doing - this isn't a religious thing, it's a political litmus test.

The attacker was childish. They had a nice interfaith group going and she ruined it because she wanted to school a Jew.

Who was attacked?!

You have no idea what was said or how it was said. She walked out so what we do know is that she felt uncomfortable. You never speak about politics at the table as you have no idea where people stand. I don’t agree with all of my friends on their views, so I don’t bring things up. I also don’t post on social media. OP has to decide whether politics or her friendship more important.

Way to jump to conclusions. OP has never said that the one person attacked the friend who left. You're imparting your own assumptions. There is no evidence in OP's post that anyone was remotely attacked, either physically or verbally. Sometimes people "feel attacked" but it means the issue lies within you, not in others actual actions or words.

She felt attacked and she left. You may feel like you can randomly corner Jews about Israel and demand perfect allegiance to your viewpoint or else. Don’t be surprised if they leave. It’s too bad because there is often something to agree about. With that confrontational tactic? No. No minds will ever open or be changed.

It's a human rights issue. Whatever religion you are, your own religion can commit atrocities. All religions have some seriously shitty people in them. Either you can stand with them, or against them. If one feels cornered or attacked... it's time for some serious self reflection.

Sure, which is why you should condemn Hamas as well and then people will be willing to engage in discussion. If you can’t do that… right back at you.

The U.S. has deemed Hamas a terrorist organization, which I why I don’t think you hear as much condemnation. This is already established and pretty agreed upon and also it’s not like Muslims are some preferred group in the U.S. over Jews.

Whereas we have long had close ties to Israel and have sent them gobs of our tax dollars. I don’t want my money supporting genocide, which is likely why people who disagree with Israel are more vocal. Our leaders have picked a side in this battle. Many Americans don’t agree with that. It’s not antisemitism to want to withdraw support at this point and I’m tired of that allegation being thrown around to silence anyone who disagrees with our current U.S. policy.

At this point, I am going to declare this argument to be a complete strawman. Nobody is claiming that “anyone who disagrees with the war in Gaza is antisemitic.” Total strawman because you don’t actually WANT to understand the nuance.

Yes, support for Gaza is very much conflated with antisemitism. This is all over the place, and it's certainly apparent with this administration.

no it’s not. That’s a strawman used to try to make people not talk about antisemitism. Which is why this woman i opted to nope out.

You keep using the word “strawman” because you don’t want something to be true. But that doesn’t make it so.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:As a jewish (American) person who doesn't want to hear people bash Israel, I would appreciate the call from you. Yes, a lot of what Israel is doing is atrocious but this country has been defending themselves from all sides for their entire "life".

I have never heard ANYONE unleash on the IDF without ALSO talking smack about Jewish people. THAT is the real issue for me. Their antisemitism comes roaring out, and they can't/won't see that.

I am genuinely not trying to be inflammatory but I do find your last paragraph hard to believe. Have you not spoken with any of the many Jewish voices against instances of IDF brutality?

Of course. I am also against the IDF brutality. However, my jewish friends and I are able to separate what the IDF is doing from hating all jewish people, even hating all Israelis. And that's not something I can say about non-jews. We (my jewish friends/relatives and I) don't unleash to each other about the IDF. We don't need to because we know we all agree. Our talks are more solution-oriented and about the therapy everyone involved will need, and how all the hard work bridging relationships between Israelis and Palestinians over the last few decades has crumbled. Some of us were involved in those programs.

When I said I've never heard anyone unleash on the IDF without also talking smack about jewish people, I meant "anyone" to mean non-jews. Sorry for not being clear the first time.

Non-jews can also separate government policy and IDF actions ordered by a government from "all Israelis" or "all Jews." You just haven't heard enough people.

This is about how the woman who walked out felt - clearly she felt the discussion was antisemitic.

Probably was. My post responded to a quote from someone who wasn't the woman who walked out.

Criticizing Israel is not antisemitic.

To zionists, anything short of applauding genocide is antisemitic.

That’s right, all claims of antisemitism are fake.

Omg this post really summarizes the craziness.

Person A: I don’t support genocide. I think we shouldn’t support Israel.

Person B (who has no actual merit-based response): you are antisemitic and if you deny being antisemitic then you are denying the entire existence of antisemitism. Also if you keep trying to explain yourself you are offensive and should shut up and listen only to the people who are going to invalidate your opinion with accusations of discrimination.

Like do you even hear yourself anymore??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good for her knowing her boundaries and leaving. The racism and gaslighting in these comments is not surprising, but awful just the same. If you value the friendship, reach out. If not, don’t. She will make whatever judgments are necessary for her safety and well-being.

+1

Gaslighting? Racism? Where and when? The woman left because she didn't like anyone criticizing Israel. That's called boundaries? That's called a poor debater. Maybe she could have added to the conversation.

Gaslighting and racism in these comments. We do not need to do the unpaid emotional labor of educating you. That expectation that Jews explain themselves and their suffering to you is deeply rooted in white supremacy which you are free to uphold - but that is called being a poor human. She does not need to add to a conversation with people engaging in racist tropes, e.g., that Jews have to answer for Israel and/or deserve to be held collectively responsible for Israel, or uphold the colorism in hyper-focus on white-presenting Palestinians where you give zero effs for Yemen, or Congo, or Sudan, or Burkina Faso. This nameless and faceless Jewish woman does not owe you a debate, actually. Jews are full people and can have different views and concerns than you. Most Jews in my circle are deeply critical of Netanyahu - but what neo-Nazis on the Right and neo-Nazis on the Left hold in common is the belief that Israel somehow does not have the right to exist, but that Jordan, or Lebanon, or Syria, or India, or Pakistan for that matter do. And that is not "being critical of Israel" - that is racism. And we should call it out - even when by "friends." But sometimes the best thing to do is just leave - to exercise boundaries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would call her OP. She obviously felt very isolated. I am Catholic and am in a circle that's about half Jewish, with the other half mostly non practicing Catholics and protestants. We are close enough that we talk deeply about any and all issues.

But my Jewish friends feel the sting of antisemitism constantly (not from our group but other communities to which they belong). Many identify strongly with Israel. It is very difficult to have a conversation about Israel without sounding antisemitic.

I would call her and just listen. I'm sure she feels isolated and unsure of her place in this group.

This is only a problem because of people who shut down any criticism of Israel with allegations of antisemitism.

Just like America can (and should) be heavily criticized right now, so should Israel. We shouldn’t have to all tiptoe around discussing genocide because some people are very attached to their home (or ancestral) country.

And yes, antisemitism does absolutely still exist. There are crazy people who will horribly use what is going on in Gaza to harm civilian Jews / Israelis in America. That should absolutely be condemned and discussed.

But right now it feels like the only sentiment you’re allowed to express is complete support for Israel lest your Jewish friends get upset (obviously they’re not a monolith but many in my first hand experience). I have quite a few Jewish friends and follow some Jewish content creators and they are very easily triggered by any support for Gazans and have written lengthy social media posts accusing anyone who feels bad for Gazans as being a horrible person who cannot be their friend anymore. I think it’s crazy but I don’t engage because hearts and minds won’t be changed. But it does make me think less of them that they they are using their own discrimination as a shield to then support harm to others.

Actions have consequences. If you want to hold forth on Gaza in front of Jewish acquaintances in a setting where politics are not normally discussed and with no empathy or interest in hearing their viewpoint, then you need to be prepared to be ghosted, walked out on or blocked. Nobody is stopping you.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:As a jewish (American) person who doesn't want to hear people bash Israel, I would appreciate the call from you. Yes, a lot of what Israel is doing is atrocious but this country has been defending themselves from all sides for their entire "life".

I have never heard ANYONE unleash on the IDF without ALSO talking smack about Jewish people. THAT is the real issue for me. Their antisemitism comes roaring out, and they can't/won't see that.

I am genuinely not trying to be inflammatory but I do find your last paragraph hard to believe. Have you not spoken with any of the many Jewish voices against instances of IDF brutality?

Of course. I am also against the IDF brutality. However, my jewish friends and I are able to separate what the IDF is doing from hating all jewish people, even hating all Israelis. And that's not something I can say about non-jews. We (my jewish friends/relatives and I) don't unleash to each other about the IDF. We don't need to because we know we all agree. Our talks are more solution-oriented and about the therapy everyone involved will need, and how all the hard work bridging relationships between Israelis and Palestinians over the last few decades has crumbled. Some of us were involved in those programs.

When I said I've never heard anyone unleash on the IDF without also talking smack about jewish people, I meant "anyone" to mean non-jews. Sorry for not being clear the first time.

Non-jews can also separate government policy and IDF actions ordered by a government from "all Israelis" or "all Jews." You just haven't heard enough people.

This is about how the woman who walked out felt - clearly she felt the discussion was antisemitic.

Probably was. My post responded to a quote from someone who wasn't the woman who walked out.

Criticizing Israel is not antisemitic.

To zionists, anything short of applauding genocide is antisemitic.

That’s right, all claims of antisemitism are fake.

Omg this post really summarizes the craziness.

Person A: I don’t support genocide. I think we shouldn’t support Israel.

Person B (who has no actual merit-based response): you are antisemitic and if you deny being antisemitic then you are denying the entire existence of antisemitism. Also if you keep trying to explain yourself you are offensive and should shut up and listen only to the people who are going to invalidate your opinion with accusations of discrimination.

Like do you even hear yourself anymore??

Lady read. That was in response to a nasty post generalizing about “zionists” always faking claims of antisemitism. THAT is the takeaway of this thread: that even people like yourself who are presumably educated don’t see the nastiness that can quickly arise when this stuff starts getting discussed. hence why the woman reasonably walked out so she didn’t have to deal with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good for her knowing her boundaries and leaving. The racism and gaslighting in these comments is not surprising, but awful just the same. If you value the friendship, reach out. If not, don’t. She will make whatever judgments are necessary for her safety and well-being.

+1

Gaslighting? Racism? Where and when? The woman left because she didn't like anyone criticizing Israel. That's called boundaries? That's called a poor debater. Maybe she could have added to the conversation.

Gaslighting and racism in these comments. We do not need to do the unpaid emotional labor of educating you. That expectation that Jews explain themselves and their suffering to you is deeply rooted in white supremacy which you are free to uphold - but that is called being a poor human. She does not need to add to a conversation with people engaging in racist tropes, e.g., that Jews have to answer for Israel and/or deserve to be held collectively responsible for Israel, or uphold the colorism in hyper-focus on white-presenting Palestinians where you give zero effs for Yemen, or Congo, or Sudan, or Burkina Faso. This nameless and faceless Jewish woman does not owe you a debate, actually. Jews are full people and can have different views and concerns than you. Most Jews in my circle are deeply critical of Netanyahu - but what neo-Nazis on the Right and neo-Nazis on the Left hold in common is the belief that Israel somehow does not have the right to exist, but that Jordan, or Lebanon, or Syria, or India, or Pakistan for that matter do. And that is not "being critical of Israel" - that is racism. And we should call it out - even when by "friends." But sometimes the best thing to do is just leave - to exercise boundaries.

+1. I can’t imagine it would have gone well if the woman said “As a Jew I feel conflicted because people equate Zionism with genocide. I see a Jewish state as legitimate and political attacks on Israel often veer into the notion that it has no right to exist, which to me is antisemitic.”

[Anonymous]

hi OP here- a little update

So against a few people's advice, I called her and frankly regretted in 3 minutes in.

To be clear we are not close friends, we are friends through this group and through my sons class. I find her a little hard edged and too serious for my taste but I liked her well enough.

I called just to see if she was OK and she almost immediately went into a tirade. Not a "thanks so much for caring" didn't even bother with that (meanwhile no one from that group has reached out to her) But she got super defensive, starting talking about Israel's history, etc...very loud and strongly, my husband was in the room and told me to just cut if off. I was honestly expecting a softer, more appreciate tone- even hoping for an honest conversation (politely) to express her viewpoints. Instead it felt more like a lesson/reprimand.

So I did excuse myself politely, of course, as I had no interest in hearing the history of a country that I believe has committed a horrific genocide and for the record my husband is Jewish and strongly agrees!

I never once chimed in with said "ringleader" at the lunch, as I tend to keep those types of opinions to myself even though everyone else felt that way. However I did not like the way she came across on the phone at all. I told her I needed to be somewhere but was just calling to check in. I thought i was doing the right thing but soon realized it was a big mistake.

So there's that. Suffice to say, if she does not make it to our next get together, I will be totally fine with it.