Assessing proficiency in private schools

[Anonymous]

I'm a NP and scanning this thread I think we've got a standoff between the data-driven and the intuition-driven. Having had kids in a highly-regarded MoCo public for elementary and a highly-regarded DC independent for middle and high school, I'll gladly join the latter camp. Here's why:

1) All the standardized tests our kids took in MCPS never told us a darned thing we didn't already know about their individual strengths and weaknesses or about the school's or system's performance. Talking with our kids, reviewing their work, and, most important, listening to what their very insightful teachers had to say gave us all the "data" we needed to know what kind of learner each child was and what we could do to help him or her thrive in school.

2) Although administration of the MSAs may take only a week, their effect on the MCPS curriculum and allocation of resources is much more far-reaching. The entire curriculum is driven by the standardized tests -- there's no social studies or science on the tests, so there's barely any social studies or science taught. (It's irrelevant that your child's schedule shows time blocked out for those subjects, on many days scheduled instruction time is given over to preparing for the MSAs.) Furthermore, the reading, writing and math curricula are all geared to test performance. That's fine if you believe that what's being tested is valuable, but we didn't think writing a "brief constucted response" (i.e., a mini-expository essay) should be the only form of writing taught --over and over again-- in elementary school.

3) Test scores in neighborhoods that are comparable socio-econmically and demographically tend to be about the same with only insignificant variations. This is the problem you might get if you look at the data for surgeons performing the same procedure at the same hospital. How to tell the difference then? Put together a list of questions and ask patients, doctors and nurses familiar with the surgeon's performance. (E.g., Did the surgeon communicate clearly about the risks involved in surgery? How did the surgeon manage pain? How dilligent was follow-up? etc.) In the case of a school you put together a similar list, focused on your child's needs and on the factors you value in education. You talk to parents, teachers, alumni, and you use your judgment about the credibility of these sources.

[Anonymous]

There is no fear. If you want the scores, call anonymously and ask for them. It's a private school they are under no obligation to make anything public.

[Anonymous]

Honest question here. Might one reason that schools choose not to publish this data (ERB scores) be that even when aggregated, the scores link up to a very small number of students at many schools? I'm afraid my statistics is pretty ancient history ... probably a non-issue.

Interesting point. I think the reason behind this is simpler and far more strategic. Private school admissions is a competitive business in this region of the country where higher socioeconomic families have less and less children and the baby boomers are moving into the twilight. It's pure economics and survival. One needs a certain number of classes and halls to fill with bright students that beget more bright students. For some private schools in the area releasing this type of sensitive information may lead to student flight that may threaten their very existence and market position. I don't think it is any more complicated than this. It is pure speculation on my part to think collusion may be at play since some schools are in certain leagues or consortia (both the strong and the weak) may have leadership that have agreed in advance about policies such as wide spread release of ERB data. I have no evidence for this but policies like this a made by all sorts of consortia in all sectors of the economy.

[Anonymous]

17.1


a) data-driven
b) inttuition-driven
c) data + intuition-driven
d) none of the above


My $30,000/yr guess or intuition on this multi-choice intuits that the correct ANSWER is C.

[Anonymous]

Thank you for addressing my question, 17:06.

Regarding your idea that schools hide the information to prevent flight of good students ... maybe it would only create a massive reshuffling. Sure ... the brightest students (their families, that is) might suddenly try all the harder to get into School 1, 2, and 3 (which are also "big" ) but given there are only so many slots, the next to brightest kids would just end up taking the vacated slots at Schools 4, 5 .... X. ???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is no fear. If you want the scores, call anonymously and ask for them. It's a private school they are under no obligation to make anything public.

I was referring to the fear, stated on this thread several times, that "test-mongering parents" will start to deluge the privates. Other posters have put forth plausible reasons why this would NOT happen. But since it's one of the remaining reasons why privates should hold test scores back, I'd like to understand it. Without the insults.

The MoCo example is interesting, but not very relevant. If test scores are as high as PP claims, then privates have nothing to fear re mobs of parents trying to make changes like eliminating art. And if scores in some privates are low, well then we need to know that, not hide it.

[Anonymous]

Many top high schools, colleges and professional schools also don't publish class ranks. This is for at least two reasons. First, it may undermine student's inclination to take harder classes in which it is more difficult to earn a high grade. Second, it may cause people looking at a student's profile (in a school admissions process, a job application process, etc.) to fixate on the number rather than taking the time to look into the details of what a student actually did and/or knows (hence the hiring of a top ranked student who takes the easy route whenever possible over a student who challenged himself with subjects out of his comfort zone).

I think it's a good analogy to the publication of school's test scores. As a parent of kids at a private school, I do not want the teachers or student focused on test scores (otherwise I would have sent my kids to the public school I went to). Nor do I want numbers out in the public that are not particularly meaningful but that provide some sort of quantification fix to people who find a need to rank based on numbers.

For those of you needing numbers to tell you that my post is worth your time reading, I've never scored below 99% on any standardized test I've taken

[Anonymous]

17.3

Thank you for addressing my question, 17:06.

Regarding your idea that schools hide the information to prevent flight of good students ... maybe it would only create a massive reshuffling. Sure ... the brightest students (their families, that is) might suddenly try all the harder to get into School 1, 2, and 3 (which are also "big" ) but given there are only so many slots, the next to brightest kids would just end up taking the vacated slots at Schools 4, 5 .... X. ???

Reshuffling is a better description for this finite and perhaps slowly shrinking pool of candidates (flight from one post to another!). In my brief time in the area, I have withnessed good private schools eliminate top end grades and merge with other privates due to an inability for fill seats or have teachers instruct whole grades of less than 8 to 10 students. Not sustainable in the present economy and in the near future.

[Anonymous]

17:01 -- Testing does not automatically have this effect, everywhere. It depends where you live in MoCo and what schools your kids attend. My kid in immersion had zero English prep, my kids in magnets have no prep and a fabulous range of courses, and I hear from families in Bethesda that social studies and science are actually fine.

Given that most privates are probably more like the publics I've just described, your description of the impact of testing may not apply to them.

FWIW, DD was in a low-performing down-county school where there was a ton of test prep, until we moved her to private. Where she did ERBs and although they didn't call it prep , it was there to the extent that punctuation drills are prep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Many top high schools, colleges and professional schools also don't publish class ranks. This is for at least two reasons. First, it may undermine student's inclination to take harder classes in which it is more difficult to earn a high grade. Second, it may cause people looking at a student's profile (in a school admissions process, a job application process, etc.) to fixate on the number rather than taking the time to look into the details of what a student actually did and/or knows (hence the hiring of a top ranked student who takes the easy route whenever possible over a student who challenged himself with subjects out of his comfort zone).

I think it's a good analogy to the publication of school's test scores. As a parent of kids at a private school, I do not want the teachers or student focused on test scores (otherwise I would have sent my kids to the public school I went to). Nor do I want numbers out in the public that are not particularly meaningful but that provide some sort of quantification fix to people who find a need to rank based on numbers.

For those of you needing numbers to tell you that my post is worth your time reading, I've never scored below 99% on any standardized test I've taken

Para 1 doesn't really apply because the kiss aren't submitting ERB scores to colleges.

Para 2 simply dismisses the request for numbers with "I don't want them out there" and they provide a "quantitative fix" for, by implication, some weirdo junkies.

Do you have anything better than this?

[Anonymous]

Many top high schools, colleges and professional schools also don't publish class ranks. This is for at least two reasons. First, it may undermine student's inclination to take harder classes in which it is more difficult to earn a high grade. Second, it may cause people looking at a student's profile (in a school admissions process, a job application process, etc.) to fixate on the number rather than taking the time to look into the details of what a student actually did and/or knows (hence the hiring of a top ranked student who takes the easy route whenever possible over a student who challenged himself with subjects out of his comfort zone).

I think it's a good analogy to the publication of school's test scores. As a parent of kids at a private school, I do not want the teachers or student focused on test scores (otherwise I would have sent my kids to the public school I went to). Nor do I want numbers out in the public that are not particularly meaningful but that provide some sort of quantification fix to people who find a need to rank based on numbers.

For those of you needing numbers to tell you that my post is worth your time reading, I've never scored below 99% on any standardized test I've taken [google]

The multi-billion dollar standardized test prepping and tutoring industry in this country does not support any of your arguments. All the top institutions of lower and higher brag about high test scores and exmission rates to higher top institutions of learning. Teachers, students and entrepeneurs focus big time on test results. If all your students got a 3 or below on an AP class taught for a whole year you will hear about this from the students and the school. This are the facts. I do not necessarily endorse this behavior but this is the educational market place. We are not talking about what constitutes individual success or happiness for parent or student. We are simply talking about admission and entry to mostly private schools of lower and higher learning.

[Anonymous]

17:23 ... would you mind sharing what schools you have seen eliminating top end grades, merging with other schools, or having teachers instructing whole grades of less than 8 to 10 students? I thought I kept up with private school matters in this area pretty closely ... at least, I waste far more time on DCUM than I should, that's for sure ... but I am completely unaware of occurences that match what you describe. ???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:17.1


a) data-driven
b) inttuition-driven
c) data + intuition-driven
d) none of the above


My $30,000/yr guess or intuition on this multi-choice intuits that the correct ANSWER is C.

I'm answering C, too. And I too was in the 99th pctile on every standardized test I've ever taken.

[Anonymous]

17:01 -- Testing does not automatically have this effect, everywhere. It depends where you live in MoCo and what schools your kids attend. My kid in immersion had zero English prep, my kids in magnets have no prep and a fabulous range of courses, and I hear from families in Bethesda that social studies and science are actually fine.

Given that most privates are probably more like the publics I've just described, your description of the impact of testing may not apply to them.

FWIW, DD was in a low-performing down-county school where there was a ton of test prep, until we moved her to private. Where she did ERBs and although they didn't call it prep , it was there to the extent that punctuation drills are prep.

Kids attending down-county public schools are not the ones that fuel and drive the multi-billion dollar standardized test prepping and tutoring industry. On the contrary, it is your children and those attending private schools that largely keep this industry going strong.

What do you mean by ton of test prep? In my Potomac neighborhood most kids are doing some extracurricular prep: Kumon, C-2, Kaplan, Princeton review, CTY, EPGY, Sylvan, private tutors, summer academic camps, etc. etc. This is not happening with the same frequency and ferocity when I visit colleagues down county...to use your phrase.

[Anonymous]

I did not score over 99th percentile on every standardized test I ever took. But I sure did score above the 99th percentile on the one post-college standardized test for which I took the 8 week prep class at Kaplan. Did that 99th percentile mean that my college did a superb job educating me?