Assessing proficiency in private schools

[Anonymous]

In fact, if the privates are so "first-rate and vastly superior", you'd think they'd be trumpeting their ERB scores against the national averages (which the ERB folks helpful provide). But silence....

Precisely, this community is not one to shy away from opportunities to brag and market their brand.

[Anonymous]

"Ooh, everyone likes their own brand, don't they?"

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

[Anonymous]

If school was totally complacent about what they were doing, that's the sign of a poor job. The ERBs, used wisely, help a school check in with what they are doing. ERB's are not a total measurement tool, but they can indicate areas of weakness and strength and a school using them well, evaluates the information in their planing, curriculum, etc. ERBs can also be an indicator of how a student is doing, but they are not the be all end all here either. Many of the DC area independent schools, including schools referred to as "2nd & 3rd tier" (ick) have most of their students performing above the national average on the ERBs.
This has come up in other threads, with parents referring to their own children's scores, but for a comparative example: a child with a math or reading score that is the 96th percentile for the nation, may only be in the 70-85th% for national independent schools (depending on grade level, subtest, etc.) Of course, the top 4% kids fill the local magnets too. Not saying one is a better learning environment than the other.

[Anonymous]

No test prep that I've seen at GDS. Grade level and individual performance on ERBs shared with parents. I think their use of standardized testing is appropriate (e.g. to identify weaknesses, assess whether new curricula represents an improvement).

A big part of the reason my DC is in private is that I think that NCLB and its emphasis on standardized test scores is a blight on the educational landscape. I sure as hell don't want to see that trend engulf privates as well. So I'd resist any decision to publicize standardized testing scores.

And if the decision not to release these scores leads people to assume that the school's not all that or to decide not to apply, so be it. I'm much more concerned with the actual education my kid receives than the perceptions of people who know little or nothing about education and/or a specific school. It's not as if my kid's life chances hinge on some collective delusion that the student body at her private school had higher (or lower) test scores than it really did. In any context where test scores matter, each candidate will be required to produce his/her own and be judged accordingly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm much more concerned with the actual education my kid receives than the perceptions of people who know little or nothing about education and/or a specific school.

So, how do you evaluate the education at a school before enrolling? Reputation? Anecdotal evidence from other parents? This is a sincere question, I'm not trying to be antagonistic or facetious. I have beliefs about the quality of a school based on style of education (which may or may not hold true), and my husband is hesitant to commit to a private school without having some more standard markers he can use to compare against other options. Certainly if you are considering a top national or regional prep school, you assume academic rigor, but what about your average local Quaker school (for example).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm much more concerned with the actual education my kid receives than the perceptions of people who know little or nothing about education and/or a specific school.

So, how do you evaluate the education at a school before enrolling? Reputation? Anecdotal evidence from other parents? This is a sincere question, I'm not trying to be antagonistic or facetious. I have beliefs about the quality of a school based on style of education (which may or may not hold true), and my husband is hesitant to commit to a private school without having some more standard markers he can use to compare against other options. Certainly if you are considering a top national or regional prep school, you assume academic rigor, but what about your average local Quaker school (for example).

I agree with OP, sometimes I think that we are dealing with that emperor and his new clothes...
The schools need to step up to the plate if they are asking for so much money.
I suspect that they don't publish the SAT scores of their HS students because you might see 40 points higher at Sidwell than at Whitman, which would mean that after you take out the cherry picking advantage of Sidwell, Whitman might be better.
They have their reasons for not posting, but more and more parents need to demand it.

[Anonymous]

You go and you watch classes and you talk to parents and kids (either because they have firsthand experience with a school you're potentially interested in or because you think that the kids are doing great (smart, considerate, happy, responsible) and you wonder where they're being educated).

You listen to what the school tells you and look at what they show you and decide whether their emphases match your values. And if they aren't showing/telling what you're interested in, ask. Even if you don't get the info you seek, you'll learn something both from the explanation why and from the attitude.

You look at what's up in the halls in terms of work, what kinds of interactions the kids are having (with teachers, peers, visitors). You ask about professional development for teachers and about average time on staff.

You read the local freebie newspapers (and see what types of projects/achievements different schools are known for and maybe what their students have to say -- the Current newspapers, for example, have kid-written weekly blurbs for each school).

Maybe it's easier for me to feel comfortable making an assessment based on these kinds of observations because I have a background in education. I did notice that my husband (no education background) was more likely to be wowed by/notice facilities and I was more likely to be wowed by teachers and to notice the general environment/vibe of the place.

We both agreed that we wanted a place where kids were encouraged to be independent and critical thinkers and where what I'd call "hard fun" was a core value (e.g. things aren't fun because they're easy; they're fun because they're demanding and interesting and rewarding). We also wanted a more goal-oriented or problem-solving approach rather than one based on competition/winning.

And, advice from a friend who taught in a private school, look at how the school treats kids who are at the top, middle, and bottom. Some are great with one group and suck wrt the others.

Which sort of brings up another point -- one reason to look at environments rather than standardized test scores is that you're looking for a match -- to find a place that brings out the best in your particular DC and where you anticipate a mutually supportive relationship between school and home. You have to respect what they're doing and they have to respect what you're doing. I can't imagine shelling out big bucks for private unless I felt that way.

Hope that helps!

[Anonymous]

Second what 9:53 said.

That is exactly how we evaluated the two schools that DS got into. When we really looked at the work both schools were doing at the same grades, one really stood out over the other. (for what we were looking for for our DS)
We also liked how the students were interacting with eachother.

Looking at the college matriculation list also gives you some idea of the level of academics atthe school.

[Anonymous]

My concern is that schools will always show you their best faces on open house days. Or if you ask to visit on a regular day, you will see the best classes.

[SAM2]

I empathize with the comments from 9:12 & 9:41 because I too have a "show me" attitude and prize objective data over subjective word-of-mouth. I've spent an embarrassing amount of time collecting loads of objective data, which is linked from this page: http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/99066.page . Each person can review it and draw her own conclusions about whether the emperor has clothes or not.

However, after visiting many schools, I agree with 9:53 that the best way to decide what environment is right for your child is to make your own personal visits to the schools you are considering. Much like finding a person you love, you can't pick a partner based on what your friends think or objective facts on the page -- the heart wants what it wants.

Good luck in your search.

[Anonymous]

OP here - thank you all so much for the advice. It seeems I am not alone in my need to have more from private schools than just their reputation and great facilities. I will take the advice and do the legwork to visit the schools we might be interested in, both public and private. Thank you again.

[Anonymous]

OP again - added an extra 'e' in "seems" in my haste to respond!

[Anonymous]

10:15-

Many schools give a personal tour during school days. The work that is up on the bulletin boards, what they are doing in the classroom, the books they are using is what goes on.

Yes at an open house they may show you the best but during a regular school day, what is going on is what goes on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My concern is that schools will always show you their best faces on open house days. Or if you ask to visit on a regular day, you will see the best classes.

Speaking as a teacher (but not in any of these schools), let me tell you that you don't have that much (or maybe kind of) control. You can't turn the class on (or off) just because there's a visitor (and you probably wouldn't know in advance anyway). The kids, the environment, the lessons are what they are because of who you are, where you are, how things have evolved over the course of the term.

Yes, you're right that, odds are, you won't see the worst of a school when you visit. Mostly what you'll see is the norm.

And you may also discover that one person's "best face" is someone else's "lipstick on a pig" or "bad hair day." Truth is, at some places, their best just isn't what you're looking for.

[Anonymous]

You go and you watch classes and you talk to parents and kids (either because they have firsthand experience with a school you're potentially interested in or because you think that the kids are doing great (smart, considerate, happy, responsible) and you wonder where they're being educated).

You listen to what the school tells you and look at what they show you and decide whether their emphases match your values. And if they aren't showing/telling what you're interested in, ask. Even if you don't get the info you seek, you'll learn something both from the explanation why and from the attitude.

You look at what's up in the halls in terms of work, what kinds of interactions the kids are having (with teachers, peers, visitors). You ask about professional development for teachers and about average time on staff.

You read the local freebie newspapers (and see what types of projects/achievements different schools are known for and maybe what their students have to say -- the Current newspapers, for example, have kid-written weekly blurbs for each school).

Maybe it's easier for me to feel comfortable making an assessment based on these kinds of observations because I have a background in education. I did notice that my husband (no education background) was more likely to be wowed by/notice facilities and I was more likely to be wowed by teachers and to notice the general environment/vibe of the place.

We both agreed that we wanted a place where kids were encouraged to be independent and critical thinkers and where what I'd call "hard fun" was a core value (e.g. things aren't fun because they're easy; they're fun because they're demanding and interesting and rewarding). We also wanted a more goal-oriented or problem-solving approach rather than one based on competition/winning.

And, advice from a friend who taught in a private school, look at how the school treats kids who are at the top, middle, and bottom. Some are great with one group and suck wrt the others.

Which sort of brings up another point -- one reason to look at environments rather than standardized test scores is that you're looking for a match -- to find a place that brings out the best in your particular DC and where you anticipate a mutually supportive relationship between school and home. You have to respect what they're doing and they have to respect what you're doing. I can't imagine shelling out big bucks for private unless I felt that way.

Hope that helps!

Sorry, this doesn't help. I'm not interested in anecdotes simply data!