Assessing proficiency in private schools

[Anonymous]

I didn't give you anecdotes, I gave you a process.

And data is just a series of observations. There's subjectivity in selection, measurement, and analysis.

Not that subjectivity should be a concern when you're choosing a school for your child -- both your own POV/personality/values and your DC's should be in the mix. It's about fit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn't know private schools are also obssessed with standardized tests guarding these annual results as some trade secret. What is the purpose of this annual ritual of standardized tests? Wouldn't these tests be superfluous and a waste since the education and teaching in these schools are first-rate and vastly superior?

I think the ERBs may be used for schools to renew their accreditation, but somebody may want to correct me here.

To our amazement, the time lost to the ERBs in private was about the same as the time lost to the MSAs in public. I.e., about a week during which there was little actual teaching that would stress precious kiddie brain cells, zero homework, and lots of letters home about the importance of getting a good night's sleep and a good breakfast. It's just that the ERBs are a state secret and the MSAs are used for punitive measures against schools, but I digress.

You can't say with confidence that "the education and teaching in these [private] schools are first-rate and vastly superior." There are some great publics, and some crummy privates.

We did not find the ERBs to be a problem - yes they lost some time to the actual test taking but I think it was a total of about 8 hours a year including breaks, etc. (about 2 hours a day for 4 days). At our school they still got homework and still had classes during ERBs. And frankly being measured by standardized tests is a reality of life for college bound students so I didn't mind the prep for SSATs, PSATs and SATs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn't know private schools are also obssessed with standardized tests guarding these annual results as some trade secret. What is the purpose of this annual ritual of standardized tests? Wouldn't these tests be superfluous and a waste since the education and teaching in these schools are first-rate and vastly superior?

I think the ERBs may be used for schools to renew their accreditation, but somebody may want to correct me here.

To our amazement, the time lost to the ERBs in private was about the same as the time lost to the MSAs in public. I.e., about a week during which there was little actual teaching that would stress precious kiddie brain cells, zero homework, and lots of letters home about the importance of getting a good night's sleep and a good breakfast. It's just that the ERBs are a state secret and the MSAs are used for punitive measures against schools, but I digress.

You can't say with confidence that "the education and teaching in these [private] schools are first-rate and vastly superior." There are some great publics, and some crummy privates.

We did not find the ERBs to be a problem - yes they lost some time to the actual test taking but I think it was a total of about 8 hours a year including breaks, etc. (about 2 hours a day for 4 days). At our school they still got homework and still had classes during ERBs. And frankly being measured by standardized tests is a reality of life for college bound students so I didn't mind the prep for SSATs, PSATs and SATs.

I'm the poster you quoted. To clarify, we didn't find the ERBs to be a real problem, just as we found the furor about MSAs to be overrated. (Apparently another MoCo mom on DCUM, from downcounty like me, shares the opinion that the MSAs aren't that much of a burden, just one week really.) Plus, as you say, testing like the ERBs helps prep the kids for SSATs, PSATs and SATs.

So my only point, which maybe wasn't clear, is that all schools do testing, both public and private.

It would require some work and thought to use the ERBs and MSAs make a direct comparison of a particular private school vs. a particular public school. The tests themselves are different. Plus you'd have to adjust the public school results for honors vs. non-honors cohorts, english as a foreign language, and special ed in the public school.

But at least having ERB results would provide some additional information to prospective parents. So, IMHO it would be nice to have ERB results before joining a private school, as some have said. As I recall, we were given some ERB results after the school had made us an offer and we were talking with them seriously.

[Anonymous]

16:02

It sounds like the process that people gave you on this topic is not going to satisfy you. Public school may be a better fit since you can get the data you need to make a better decision.

However as a previous poster said, it is not just about data but how your child will fit into the school and its environment. You cna only get that from visiting and seeing how the school works.

[Anonymous]

I didn't give you anecdotes, I gave you a process.

And data is just a series of observations. There's subjectivity in selection, measurement, and analysis.

Not that subjectivity should be a concern when you're choosing a school for your child -- both your own POV/personality/values and your DC's should be in the mix. It's about fit.

Of course, there is no subjectivity in process and fit. I'll take the beef (data). You keep the process.

[Anonymous]

16:02

It sounds like the process that people gave you on this topic is not going to satisfy you. Public school may be a better fit since you can get the data you need to make a better decision.

However as a previous poster said, it is not just about data but how your child will fit into the school and its environment. You cna only get that from visiting and seeing how the school works.

Are you implying the notion of "process and fit" is applicable only for lofty private schools as opposed to lowly public institutions of learning? If not, and public schools are transparent about data why can't private schools provide similar data for prospective students and parents?

[Anonymous]

Not the PP you've quoted, but the obvious answer is that government routinely has different reporting requirements than private organizations (which is more about the relationship between voters/taxpayers and officials than about parents/kids and schools) and that public schools specifically have requirements imposed on them that may reflect political rather than educational imperatives.

No one is compelling you to fund a private school or requiring you to send your child to one. So there's no comparable obligation for private schools to produce data or to make decisions democratically or transparently.

That said, many schools do share data with members of the school community and, as one poster points out, apparently some also share with prospective members (admittees) when asked.

If a private school wants to sell itself based on test scores, it can. If it doesn't, it needn't. If you wouldn't enroll your kid in a school without seeing standardized test scores, either go public or find a private that sees standardized test scores as being as crucial as you do.

[Anonymous]

Not the PP you've quoted, but the obvious answer is that government routinely has different reporting requirements than private organizations (which is more about the relationship between voters/taxpayers and officials than about parents/kids and schools) and that public schools specifically have requirements imposed on them that may reflect political rather than educational imperatives.

No one is compelling you to fund a private school or requiring you to send your child to one. So there's no comparable obligation for private schools to produce data or to make decisions democratically or transparently.

That said, many schools do share data with members of the school community and, as one poster points out, apparently some also share with prospective members (admittees) when asked.

If a private school wants to sell itself based on test scores, it can. If it doesn't, it needn't. If you wouldn't enroll your kid in a school without seeing standardized test scores, either go public or find a private that sees standardized test scores as being as crucial as you do.

Private school is a business. If revealing these test scores to the public and their clientele/customers put these schools on or below par with other private and/or public schools these schools would lose students to their competitors and ultimately lose luster and loot (go out of business). It is this self-serving and self-preserving fear that underlies this secrecy not some noble notion of process, fit or worthlessness of these standardized tests. For many private schools such transparency would starkly unveil the real value $35,000/year x 12 really fetches. Private schools have no obligation to reveal aggregate test score performance of their students. Many in the D.C. area already know that in the next decades many private schools will indeed go out of business, contract, merge or be acquired by another predator.

[Anonymous]

I think we'll take our chances, thanks.

[Anonymous]

I think we'll take our chances, thanks.

I'd advise one of the Big 3 schools to be on the safe side!

[Anonymous]

22:13

you are saying the only value of a private school is test results. As many posters have pointed out, school is not only about results. In many cases, private and public are the same. (SAT's, college acceptance etc)

Many go private because they can provide small classes, teacher attentiveness, more music, art etc. This can't be measured and as many posters have pointed out is subjective.


AS many have said. Stay public. You will get what you want.

[Anonymous]

private schools need money to function. they are not all businesses; they do not all exist to make a profit. they were not all created to produce standardized test scores for marketing purposes.

that said, it was clear that my DC's classmates, in a local less-mentioned progressive-leaning school, generally exceeded the national averages, and often significantly so. as do many area private school students. . don't think we need to "stick with the big 3 to be safe."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

That said, many schools do share data with members of the school community

For many private schools such transparency would starkly unveil the real value $35,000/year x 12 really fetches. Private schools have no obligation to reveal aggregate test score performance of their students. Many in the D.C. area already know that in the next decades many private schools will indeed go out of business, contract, merge or be acquired by another predator.

You're overlooking the fact that parents of kids at these schools generally do get to see the scores. To the extent we're inclined to measure what we're getting for our $30,000/year on that basis, we're able to. But, honestly, that's not what I'm looking at. I'm looking at what my kid is learning each year, what kind of person she's becoming, how she feels about school, who her friends are, who her teachers are and what kinds of relationships she has with them, what her school encourages to do/how her time gets spent there (and what demands it places on her time at home), what motivates her, etc. I'm very happy with all of these things, and so it's money well spent.

I'm not the least bit worried about her school going out of business or being acquired, LOL. You forget, these schools aren't for-profit ventures (they generally rely on philanthropy -- current and past (endowment) -- to support their programs). Actually, I'm more concerned about how the profit motive is distorting priorities in public schools.

[Anonymous]

The point is, if private schools have the ERB results, it would be helpful to release them. Other issues are a bit of a red herring. Of course "fit" counts, nobody said otherwise, but fit is one of a number of important qualities, among which are quality of education as measured objectively and quantitatively by something like the ERB. Of course political forces compel the publics to reveal their test results while the same forces aren't at play at private - but why does that mean privates are justified in keeping them secret? Yes, schools tell you the results after your kid is in - which is generally the following spring, and I think we can all agree that families are much less likely to pull out after they've been in a school a while, vs. not applying in the first place because of mediocre scores.

And I'm the poster who said we learned the scores after we were accepted - but (a) I'm pretty sure we're in the minority, and (b) I wish we knew the scores *before* we had to apply and get accepted.

[Anonymous]

8:36 again. I guess I'm with the PP who said that private schools are a business, so if releasing test scores would impress parents, they would do it. The corrollary is that not releasing the scores suggests they may not be stellar.

So if you choose private because good fit , small classes, more science and art (although not less testing). But unless the privates make ERBs public, we can't say for sure the quality of education, at least in english and math (the tested subjects) is better.

(yes, we're the family that got the ERB scores after being accepted. We've done private and moco magnets, but I won't digress into a comparison,)