Assessing proficiency in private schools

[Anonymous]

Say it 12:48! Folks, if you don't like it, don't apply.

[Anonymous]

I'm curious about your obsession with voting. Can you explain?

[Anonymous]

Nice intermediate term follow-up. Have you ever prepped for any standardized test? Do you plan in future to prep for a standardized test?

Do we also vote for an answer here?

[Anonymous]

13:01

Prepped for the SAT's back in 1982 on my second go round. In my case did very little. I am not a good test taker. Will my older son prep for the SAT? Can't say. We will see how he does on practice tests. In the case of the SAT, there are strategies to taking it because you get penalized for wrong answers. Looking at the old tests can help you prepare for the SAT. I have heard the ACT is easier and more colleges accept it today than they do back in the old days when I went to college.

As far as LSAT, MCAT, law boards, Med Boards?

We will take it one step at a time.

[Anonymous]

But I want to focus on your children ... in present day context ...not 30 years ago in my time when I took the SAT exam once without tutoring and prepping in today's parlance (e.g., Kaplan, Princeton, private tutors and coaching)

Have your children prepped for a standardized test? Do you think your children will prep for a standardized test in future (much like you did some 30 years ago)?

Thanks, in advance.

[Anonymous]

But I want to focus on your children ... in present day context ...not 30 years ago in my time when I took the SAT exam once without tutoring and prepping in today's parlance (e.g., Kaplan, Princeton, private tutors and coaching)

Have your children prepped for a standardized test? Do you think your children will prep for a standardized test in future (much like you did some 30 years ago)?

Thanks, in advance.

Addendum to above (same post):

My children will prep for standardized tests in future because private schoolsand institutions they may be interested in require these tests for admittance. Since we have no "foreseeable hooks" I certainly would advise them not to leave any stone unturned ... even if a pebble.

[Anonymous]

13:22

No we have not prepped for any entrance exams to private schools. However my kids were younger so I am not familiar with the SSAT since we went private young.

We had no hooks but I did not feel either one of my kids needed to prep. They were good math students and good readers.

If we did not get in, we had a good alternative (MoCo) so I did not have the sense of need that some may have regarding private school.

As I said previously,
Will my older son prep for the SAT? Can't say. We will see how he does on practice tests. In the case of the SAT, there are strategies to taking it because you get penalized for wrong answers. Looking at the old tests can help you prepare for the SAT. I have heard the ACT is easier and more colleges accept it today than they do back in the old days when I went to college.

As far as LSAT, MCAT, law boards, Med Boards?

We will take it one step at a time.

[Anonymous]

12:32

Thanks for a thoughtful response. I guess I just don't see problems where you do.

1. I don't have a problem with the fact that the ERBs are limited to math and englis. So are the SATs basically, except for the writing part. I also don't care that they measure facts not critical thinking.
2. Stating your opposition to testing and using words like "cling" doesn't advance your argument - what is the point here?
3. You yourself have already pointed out that teaching to the test occurs within privates, with your example of everyday math vs. Saxon and the AP arms race. Others have pointed it out too wrt ERB prepping in their own schools. So how would things get significantly worse, or drive teachers out? Also, many privates (like ours) don't take most LDs anyway - they use tests to screen for LDs- so how would this change? Finally, where has anybody proposed replicating the ridiculous AYP process for privates? Nobody has, because a 97.3 stands on it's own.

[Anonymous]

14:04 again. Somebody asked why we keep posting. I guess I'm frustrated with the shallowness (we "cling" to numbers for no earthly reason), elitism (I didn't need scores to know my top 3 is good), hypocrisy (privates use tests to let people in, prep for ERBs, APs and others - my kid's private offered SSAT prep and did minor ERB prep) and rudeness (review the last 5-6 pages).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Hence the word "analogy." My points were that (1) I don't want teachers or schools to focus their time, energy or efforts on increasing test scores, which they would be more inclined to do if these scores were shared outside of the school community (analogy would be to students focusing on getting high grades rather than taking challenging classes), and (2) I want people evaluating the school to be required to look at more than a set of numbers, which is something I believe people are inclined to rely upon too heavily in most settings (analogy would be to forcing employers, colleges, grad schools, etc. to look at least to a full transcript to see what a child has done). My high school did not do class rank or average test scores (5 of us in a class of fewer than 100 went to the same ivy together). Neither my college nor law school (also a top ivy) published class rank, and the university was one of the later ones in disclosing average SATs.

Your first point is your best point so far, I have to say. There may be some increased attention given to test results. I do think the risk is fairly low, since (a) you have asserted repeatedly that the scores are already high, and (b) the even the high-performing schools are already using the tests to find areas for improvement, as we've all agreed, thus this wouldn't represent a huge shift in school culture. On the other hand, for schools that are testing poorly, I think it would be good rather than bad to get that information out there.

I don't agree with your second point, that we would all be better off muddling along on the rumor and innuendo that we get from DCUM, friends, and a warm and fuzzy visit to the school. I think most of us would be better at evaluating the hard data, especially with helpful school staff on hand to explain why they learned multiplication in 3rd grade not 2nd. Compared to how poorly equipped most of us are to evaluate the many rumors that fly around concerning various schools.

I went to an Ivy too and have 99th percentile test scores on every standardized tests, also National Merit Scholarship Semifinalist, FWIW.

My apologies for seeming to brag about academic accomplishments. My point was that the schools I attended are very highly regarded and have very high caliber students on the academic front, and that they chose not to disclose numerical data even though their data was quite strong. I have no reason to think that kids at my schools had low scores, or that the schools had any "fear" as keeps being asserted as the only alternative for not publicizing scores. As for applicants wanting additional information, I certainly see that point. What I was trying to say is that I am glad that people who are assessing my kid will need to look past a set of scores in consider her school. I think that is to my child's benefit and that it forces those making assessments to go more than power point deep. There is the down-side that applicants may not have as much information as some may find useful, but in my view that is outweighed by the benefits to kids once they are student at the school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:12:32

Thanks for a thoughtful response. I guess I just don't see problems where you do.

1. I don't have a problem with the fact that the ERBs are limited to math and englis. So are the SATs basically, except for the writing part. I also don't care that they measure facts not critical thinking.
2. Stating your opposition to testing and using words like "cling" doesn't advance your argument - what is the point here?
3. You yourself have already pointed out that teaching to the test occurs within privates, with your example of everyday math vs. Saxon and the AP arms race. Others have pointed it out too wrt ERB prepping in their own schools. So how would things get significantly worse, or drive teachers out? Also, many privates (like ours) don't take most LDs anyway - they use tests to screen for LDs- so how would this change? Finally, where has anybody proposed replicating the ridiculous AYP process for privates? Nobody has, because a 97.3 stands on it's own.

So we disagree. No problem -- no reason you/your school can't do things one way and I/my school do things another. I wasn't trying to persuade you -- just responding to your request for an explanation of what negative consequences people anticipated from publicizing standardized test scores (actually, I think your word was "fear" which, frankly, is just as suggestive of irrationality as my "cling").

Just to be clear, my DC's school does admit kids with LDs and it uses EDM. Saxon was a hypothetical about changes one could envision resulting from pressures to maximize ERB scores. And the AP arms race example was less about teaching to the test than about consumer pressure leading to what from my POV and many teachers' POVs are suboptimal curricular choices. At any rate, teaching to the test in the AP context (where writing and analysis and the ability to apply what you know to new material are what's being evaluated) doesn't raise the same problems as teaching to the test when the test is the ERB.

Finally, I don't assume all private schools handle testing the same way -- but I found what I was looking for in this regard and it's an option I want to see preserved. Again, there's no shortage of schools that profess to be "data-driven." But some people opt out of that model for good and well-considered reasons and they're not jerks or elitists for defending their position when someone questions it or attacks it.

[Anonymous]

13:22

No we have not prepped for any entrance exams to private schools. However my kids were younger so I am not familiar with the SSAT since we went private young.

We had no hooks but I did not feel either one of my kids needed to prep. They were good math students and good readers.

If we did not get in, we had a good alternative (MoCo) so I did not have the sense of need that some may have regarding private school.

As I said previously,
Will my older son prep for the SAT? Can't say. We will see how he does on practice tests. In the case of the SAT, there are strategies to taking it because you get penalized for wrong answers. Looking at the old tests can help you prepare for the SAT. I have heard the ACT is easier and more colleges accept it today than they do back in the old days when I went to college.

As far as LSAT, MCAT, law boards, Med Boards?

We will take it one step at a time.

It is indeed interesting that you found the need to prep 30 years ago but perhaps your children will not find that same need.

In our circumstances, while I don't think my children "need" to prep for standardized tests; as the stakes get higher and higher as one advances up the educational pole, I would not discourage my children from prepping for such exams (devoid of any judgement about intrinsic worth of these instruments) if it will maximise acquisition of their choice educational institutions. I tend to follow that old dictum that chance favors the prepared mind (a higher SAT score may help ... National Merit Finalist, SET at CTY, scholarship money to pay the heavy tuition bills these private schools charge etc, etc, etc). For some students, the highest scores on these types of tests may be the only way for them to afford (by way of scholarships and other awards) to go to some of the schools of their choice. When stakes are high (or even low for that matter) I have never met a top litigator, surgeon/physician, pilot, debater, lecturer, or athlete who didn't prepare to the point of leaving no stone unturned. Now, this route is not for everyone but some prefer a 'safety cushion'.

[Anonymous]

And does "no stone unturned" include picking the very, very best school out of a collection of at least 15 to 20 (if not more) reputably very good schools? I'm not saying that isn't an okay thing for someone to do, but maybe it is not necessary. Not for me to decide on your behalf, of course. Do you really believe that the difference between having a child attend Sidwell, St. Patricks, Green Acres, or Landon will make such an educational difference that they might not be able to attend the university of their choice?

If that is what you are suggesting, then I disagree. A smart child, smart enough to gain admission to any of the top 20 or so schools in this area, will have many, many options.

[Anonymous]

No, leaving no stone unturned means keeping your child's options open until he or she is ready to make a decision ... perhaps after a school interview or visit. I'd like to think the decision will be his or hers and if he or she prefers Sidwell over Landon or Blair Magnet then for him, the this instance, the other 20 schools don't matter...even if you, yourself, would be plenty satisfied. If my child has a clear top choice (even if it is Podunk) why shouldn't the child aim and shoot for the first choice. Would you advise aiming and shooting for the 20th choice and damn be satisfied with that. Not my approach when trying to get the young to believe in themselves and what the can accomplish or even dream to accomplish.

[Anonymous]

I agree it is ok for some to simply be satisfied and happy they are in one of the top 20 schools in D.C. whatever that means. It's ok for another to get into their top choice school ... even if it is Sidwell. Both are satisfied. No argument here.