Thomas Jefferson TJHSST - why not Honors Algebra I/Honors Geometry for TJ admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lol what is this BS.

It's not Thomass Jefferson High School of Math, Mathematics, and Mathing.

You can take multivariable calculus online while attending your home school if it's so important, instead of insisting someone else, take Geometry online or in summer camp.

Mathing? Lol. The language of devout math reformers. Math-ish anyone?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

Equating spending $600 on test prep with "wealthy" is wild.

The notion that cheating is any worse at TJ than any other school is dubious.
The notion that cheating is any better now than 5 years ago is laughable.

Was cheating worse at TJ than other area high schools? I don't know but it's certainly plausible - cheating is rampant at high pressure schools and TJ was the highest pressure school. It is lower pressure now. Is cheating lower now? It's plausible.

I wouldn't say that equating $600 on test prep is wild, but I would agree that test prep to get into TJ starting in grade school and/or at Sunday School is wild.

True, but many spent more like $20k on elite prep where their children were spoon fed actual test questions from a question bank that was compiled in violation of an NDA.

20k or 200k? Students trust prep effort, admissions want students who put in that prep effort, whether sports or academics. Notice the number of college admits on sports scholarships, especially the historically disadvantaged. By saying prep is bad, you are disingenuously discouraging the URMs from prepping to succeed at TJ.

I don't think prep is bad at all. In fact, I'm all for it, but I don't think it should be the deciding factor for publicly-funded programs.

High school sports are publicly funded programs

WTF does sports have to do with academic programs? Oh wait…we know why you bring it up.

Public schools should offer multi-level options (8th/freshman, JV, Varsity) for popular sports (and offer a few no-cut sports per season). There should be a path to varsity even for kids who didn’t start playing in K.

But there isn't.

The best players on the basketball team almost invariably have travel experience.

But the path should be there for athletic kids who didn’t start in K. It’s high school, time for development and growth.

These sports anecdotes are irrelevant. Personally, I don't think my taxes should even pay for sports.

And I don't think my taxes should pay for illegal aliens, but here we are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol what is this BS.

It's not Thomass Jefferson High School of Math, Mathematics, and Mathing.

You can take multivariable calculus online while attending your home school if it's so important, instead of insisting someone else, take Geometry online or in summer camp.

Mathing? Lol. The language of devout math reformers. Math-ish anyone?

To be fair, a lot of stupid people don't understand that math is the foundation of almost all science and technology.

If you can't grokk math, you are not going to enjoy chemistry, physics, computer science or engineering.

[Anonymous]

My feeling is that the educational opportunities available to children should not be based on the cultural values of the parents. That is a waste of wide swaths of our societal resources.

Growing up my parents didn’t think that sports were for girls so they didn’t sign me up for any sports ECs. When I began middle school at 11 there where a bunch of “open enrolment” after school sports clubs available and on my own initiative picked baseball. It turned out I was a natural batter. But I never would have figured that out if it weren’t for public education.

I think that school should be year round and open 7am- 7pm and that every child should have open access to beyond grade level academics.

I want to end the attainment gap due to outside tutoring, not by abolishing tutoring but by opening it out to everyone. So it’s not only the invested middle class parents kids who have it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol what is this BS.

It's not Thomass Jefferson High School of Math, Mathematics, and Mathing.

You can take multivariable calculus online while attending your home school if it's so important, instead of insisting someone else, take Geometry online or in summer camp.

Mathing? Lol. The language of devout math reformers. Math-ish anyone?

To be fair, a lot of stupid people don't understand that math is the foundation of almost all science and technology.

If you can't grokk math, you are not going to enjoy chemistry, physics, computer science or engineering.

Meh. Not much serious math for chem & CS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol what is this BS.

It's not Thomass Jefferson High School of Math, Mathematics, and Mathing.

You can take multivariable calculus online while attending your home school if it's so important, instead of insisting someone else, take Geometry online or in summer camp.

Mathing? Lol. The language of devout math reformers. Math-ish anyone?

I guarantee you that there a dozen children within 1 mile of your current location who would run circles around you in mathematical ability and have the word "mathing" in their everyday vocabulary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

My feeling is that the educational opportunities available to children should not be based on the cultural values of the parents. That is a waste of wide swaths of our societal resources.

Growing up my parents didn’t think that sports were for girls so they didn’t sign me up for any sports ECs. When I began middle school at 11 there where a bunch of “open enrolment” after school sports clubs available and on my own initiative picked baseball. It turned out I was a natural batter. But I never would have figured that out if it weren’t for public education.

I think that school should be year round and open 7am- 7pm and that every child should have open access to beyond grade level academics.

I want to end the attainment gap due to outside tutoring, not by abolishing tutoring but by opening it out to everyone. So it’s not only the invested middle class parents kids who have it.

Agree with most of the points here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

Equating spending $600 on test prep with "wealthy" is wild.

The notion that cheating is any worse at TJ than any other school is dubious.
The notion that cheating is any better now than 5 years ago is laughable.

Was cheating worse at TJ than other area high schools? I don't know but it's certainly plausible - cheating is rampant at high pressure schools and TJ was the highest pressure school. It is lower pressure now. Is cheating lower now? It's plausible.

I wouldn't say that equating $600 on test prep is wild, but I would agree that test prep to get into TJ starting in grade school and/or at Sunday School is wild.

True, but many spent more like $20k on elite prep where their children were spoon fed actual test questions from a question bank that was compiled in violation of an NDA.

20k or 200k? Students trust prep effort, admissions want students who put in that prep effort, whether sports or academics. Notice the number of college admits on sports scholarships, especially the historically disadvantaged. By saying prep is bad, you are disingenuously discouraging the URMs from prepping to succeed at TJ.

I don't think prep is bad at all. In fact, I'm all for it, but I don't think it should be the deciding factor for publicly-funded programs.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

It's a lot less toxic now that they stopped rewarding cheaters with admission.

Studying is not cheating.
Test prep is not cheating.
Only cheating is cheating.

Some people think that anyone that tries harder than them is cheating.
Those people are setting their kids up for failure.

I’ll agree that cheating isn’t the right word for test prep nor for the multi year planning that some families were doing of their kids’ activities and outside math classes with an intentional view on maximizing their odds of getting into TJ.

But the SB - and many in FCPS community - clearly did not think that was the intended atmosphere that was desired re: admissions. I agree. I don’t think that “failure” to devote extensive non-school hours to “studying” non-school material should put a kid at a disadvantage for admissions to TJ if they are otherwise in advanced math and doing great there.

I’m in favor of using math SOLs and giving preference to kids for being in at least Geometry in 8th as that is a path accessible to all kids in the county if they have the math aptitude for it. I would not give bonus points for doing Alg 2 because it’s not a path widely available in the county even for kids at AAP centers. On top of that I would let each normal MS pick 3 kids and each AAP center pick 4-5 kids that are true standouts and nominate them strongly to try to ensure the true outlier kids (vs just those that studied non-school stuff a lot) are captured.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol what is this BS.

It's not Thomass Jefferson High School of Math, Mathematics, and Mathing.

You can take multivariable calculus online while attending your home school if it's so important, instead of insisting someone else, take Geometry online or in summer camp.

Mathing? Lol. The language of devout math reformers. Math-ish anyone?

I guarantee you that there a dozen children within 1 mile of your current location who would run circles around you in mathematical ability and have the word "mathing" in their everyday vocabulary.

Not if they've been taught by teachers using math reform approaches. They'll be too busy trying to figure out what 7x6 is with "strategies" and when all else fails, fingers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

My feeling is that the educational opportunities available to children should not be based on the cultural values of the parents. That is a waste of wide swaths of our societal resources.

Growing up my parents didn’t think that sports were for girls so they didn’t sign me up for any sports ECs. When I began middle school at 11 there where a bunch of “open enrolment” after school sports clubs available and on my own initiative picked baseball. It turned out I was a natural batter. But I never would have figured that out if it weren’t for public education.

I think that school should be year round and open 7am- 7pm and that every child should have open access to beyond grade level academics.

I want to end the attainment gap due to outside tutoring, not by abolishing tutoring but by opening it out to everyone. So it’s not only the invested middle class parents kids who have it.

I like the perspective of elevating everyone instead of punishing effort but while year round school is reasonably workable idea; a 12 hour in person school day is not. There is already a shortage of in person teachers. We used to simulate a longer school day with stuff like homework (and frankly it is much easier to do with the internet and khan academy these days) and projects but there is now an societal aversion to homework because it eats into club sports and pointy "passion" projects.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

Equating spending $600 on test prep with "wealthy" is wild.

The notion that cheating is any worse at TJ than any other school is dubious.
The notion that cheating is any better now than 5 years ago is laughable.

Was cheating worse at TJ than other area high schools? I don't know but it's certainly plausible - cheating is rampant at high pressure schools and TJ was the highest pressure school. It is lower pressure now. Is cheating lower now? It's plausible.

I wouldn't say that equating $600 on test prep is wild, but I would agree that test prep to get into TJ starting in grade school and/or at Sunday School is wild.

True, but many spent more like $20k on elite prep where their children were spoon fed actual test questions from a question bank that was compiled in violation of an NDA.

20k or 200k? Students trust prep effort, admissions want students who put in that prep effort, whether sports or academics. Notice the number of college admits on sports scholarships, especially the historically disadvantaged. By saying prep is bad, you are disingenuously discouraging the URMs from prepping to succeed at TJ.

I don't think prep is bad at all. In fact, I'm all for it, but I don't think it should be the deciding factor for publicly-funded programs.

+1

Effort is always a factor and frequently can be the deciding factor. For programs public and private. Anytime you are looking for excellence, effort will matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

My feeling is that the educational opportunities available to children should not be based on the cultural values of the parents. That is a waste of wide swaths of our societal resources.

Growing up my parents didn’t think that sports were for girls so they didn’t sign me up for any sports ECs. When I began middle school at 11 there where a bunch of “open enrolment” after school sports clubs available and on my own initiative picked baseball. It turned out I was a natural batter. But I never would have figured that out if it weren’t for public education.

I think that school should be year round and open 7am- 7pm and that every child should have open access to beyond grade level academics.

I want to end the attainment gap due to outside tutoring, not by abolishing tutoring but by opening it out to everyone. So it’s not only the invested middle class parents kids who have it.

Do you think top highschool sports teams should have no ability-based tryouts and instead just admit randomly or based on an essay about why students like the sport?

This is a good argument against keeping AAP from being too selective, but TJ is different.

Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111