Thomas Jefferson TJHSST - why not Honors Algebra I/Honors Geometry for TJ admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

If they were gifted, they'd easily qualify for Algebra in 7th. They'd also likely earn high scores on the PSAT without much or any prep. Last year in FCPS, there were 14 disadvantaged kids who passed the Algebra II SOL and another 122 who passed the Geometry one. Bright, disadvantaged kids are more than capable of meeting a minimum bar of Geometry in 8th. There's no need to water down TJ admissions for their benefit. (additionally, 165 black and hispanic kids passed the geometry sol in 8th, so there's no need to water down admissions to capture bright URMs)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Actually, that study tells us nothing about Black and Latino kids, as it is only about an achievement gap between Asian American kids and White kids.

The study also explicitly talks about "immigrant selectivity" as the MOST definitive predictor of academic success, and socio-cultural issues as the LEAST definitive predictor. You are taking the wrong things away from this article. Yes, students whose parents immigrated specifically on the basis of employment and education perform better than a random sample of random white kids. But that's not based on effort, it is based on what their parents do. If the study limited the universe of participants to Asian American kids whose parents work in X industry, and White kids whose parents work in the same industry, I think most of those differences would disappear.

A study that compared the wealthy asian children of college educated parents to the random white children does not get past peer review. The study corrects for that.

Finally, I'd call everyone's attention to this paragraph, which is particularly salient for the TJ discussion:

"These processes include ethnic communities that offer newly arrived Asian immigrants access to ethnic-specific resources such as supplemental schooling, private tutoring and college preparation, and vital information necessary for navigating the education system, resources that are often unavailable to other immigrant groups and poor or working-class natives (4)."

If it's not cultural, what do you think is the reason some immigrant communities have lots of enrichment centers and other education focused businesses in those neighborhoods and and others don't?
Poor immigrant asian neighborhoods are building better education infrastructures within a generation than "natives"
Why do you think that is?

They conclude that a gap in effort is the reason for the gap in achievement.
They conclude that the gap in effort is due to cultural beliefs about the relationship between effort and achievement, and the general immigrant efffect.

Here is the conclusion from the abstract: "We find that the Asian-American educational advantage is attributable mainly to Asian students exerting greater academic effort and not to advantages in tested cognitive abilities or socio-demographics. We test explanations for the Asian–white gap in academic effort and find that the gap can be further attributed to (i) cultural differences in beliefs regarding the connection between effort and achievement and (ii) immigration status."

When a kid gets bad grades white parents think the kid is stupid while asian parents think the kid is lazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

If they were gifted, they'd easily qualify for Algebra in 7th. They'd also likely earn high scores on the PSAT without much or any prep. Last year in FCPS, there were 14 disadvantaged kids who passed the Algebra II SOL and another 122 who passed the Geometry one. Bright, disadvantaged kids are more than capable of meeting a minimum bar of Geometry in 8th. There's no need to water down TJ admissions for their benefit. (additionally, 165 black and hispanic kids passed the geometry sol in 8th, so there's no need to water down admissions to capture bright URMs)

Where are you getting this info?
I don't doubt you but I have not run across this data organized by race or income.
Did you mean pass or advance pass?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

If they were gifted, they'd easily qualify for Algebra in 7th. They'd also likely earn high scores on the PSAT without much or any prep. Last year in FCPS, there were 14 disadvantaged kids who passed the Algebra II SOL and another 122 who passed the Geometry one. Bright, disadvantaged kids are more than capable of meeting a minimum bar of Geometry in 8th. There's no need to water down TJ admissions for their benefit. (additionally, 165 black and hispanic kids passed the geometry sol in 8th, so there's no need to water down admissions to capture bright URMs)

Where are you getting this info?
I don't doubt you but I have not run across this data organized by race or income.
Did you mean pass or advance pass?

The VDOE test results build-a-table right here:
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/apex_captcha/home.do?apexTypeId=306

You can break down all of the data by any parameters you wish, but they will hide results if they have < 10 students in that category.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

If they were gifted, they'd easily qualify for Algebra in 7th. They'd also likely earn high scores on the PSAT without much or any prep. Last year in FCPS, there were 14 disadvantaged kids who passed the Algebra II SOL and another 122 who passed the Geometry one. Bright, disadvantaged kids are more than capable of meeting a minimum bar of Geometry in 8th. There's no need to water down TJ admissions for their benefit. (additionally, 165 black and hispanic kids passed the geometry sol in 8th, so there's no need to water down admissions to capture bright URMs)

Where are you getting this info?
I don't doubt you but I have not run across this data organized by race or income.
Did you mean pass or advance pass?

Also, wanted to add: I meant pass, but there are still 51 disadvantaged kids who scored pass advanced in Geometry in 8th grade and another 12 who were pass advanced in Algebra II. So, there are 63 disadvantaged FCPS kids who appear highly qualified to claim one of the 350 or so FCPS TJ seats. I didn't pull up the numbers for LCPS, PWC, or Arlington.

[Anonymous]

FALSE. The groups that saw the largest increases in representation at TJ were Hispanic and black students.

Comparing TJ enrollment in fall of 2020 to the fall of 2024
+ 83 Hispanic students (+151%)
+ 74 black students (+231%)
+ 50 more white students (+15%)
+ 24 more multi/other (+27%)
- 28 fewer Asian students (-2%)

[Anonymous]

^^responding to the inaccurate claim by 10:18

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^responding to the inaccurate claim by 10:18

2020 admissions
https://www.fcag.org/TJ%20Admissions%20class%20of%202024.pdf
Black 10
Hispanic 16
White 86
Multiracial 29
Asian 355

2024 admissions
https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
Black 19
Hispanic 41
White 140
Multiracial 34
Asian 315

Increase or decrease in admissions:
Black +9
Hispanic +25
White +54
Multiracial +5
Asian -40

[Anonymous]

Interesting. All these race based admission tactics and yet fcps relies on the 300+ Asian American students to bring in the TJ accolades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^responding to the inaccurate claim by 10:18

2020 admissions
https://www.fcag.org/TJ%20Admissions%20class%20of%202024.pdf
Black 10
Hispanic 16
White 86
Multiracial 29
Asian 355

2024 admissions
https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
Black 19
Hispanic 41
White 140
Multiracial 34
Asian 315

Increase or decrease in admissions:
Black +9
Hispanic +25
White +54
Multiracial +5
Asian -40

OK and? Many white students decline their offers.

Again, the groups that actually saw the largest increases in representation at TJ were Hispanic and black students.

Comparing TJ enrollment in fall of 2020 to the fall of 2024
+ 83 Hispanic students (+151%)
+ 74 black students (+231%)
+ 50 more white students (+15%)
+ 24 more multi/other (+27%)
- 28 fewer Asian students (-2%)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:FALSE. The groups that saw the largest increases in representation at TJ were Hispanic and black students.

Comparing TJ enrollment in fall of 2020 to the fall of 2024
+ 83 Hispanic students (+151%)
+ 74 black students (+231%)
+ 50 more white students (+15%)
+ 24 more multi/other (+27%)
- 28 fewer Asian students (-2%)

Yes, it's a far more welcoming place to many minorities than it had been. A more diverse group than ever applies now that admission isn't so rigged to favor the wealthy feeders. Everyone knows the admission stats simply reflect the application stats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^responding to the inaccurate claim by 10:18

2020 admissions
https://www.fcag.org/TJ%20Admissions%20class%20of%202024.pdf
Black 10
Hispanic 16
White 86
Multiracial 29
Asian 355

2024 admissions
https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
Black 19
Hispanic 41
White 140
Multiracial 34
Asian 315

Increase or decrease in admissions:
Black +9
Hispanic +25
White +54
Multiracial +5
Asian -40

OK and? Many white students decline their offers.

Again, the groups that actually saw the largest increases in representation at TJ were Hispanic and black students.

Comparing TJ enrollment in fall of 2020 to the fall of 2024
+ 83 Hispanic students (+151%)
+ 74 black students (+231%)
+ 50 more white students (+15%)
+ 24 more multi/other (+27%)
- 28 fewer Asian students (-2%)

We are talking about the admissions process.

Do you have a link showing who accepted their offers by race?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FALSE. The groups that saw the largest increases in representation at TJ were Hispanic and black students.

Comparing TJ enrollment in fall of 2020 to the fall of 2024
+ 83 Hispanic students (+151%)
+ 74 black students (+231%)
+ 50 more white students (+15%)
+ 24 more multi/other (+27%)
- 28 fewer Asian students (-2%)

Yes, it's a far more welcoming place to many minorities than it had been. A more diverse group than ever applies now that admission isn't so rigged to favor the wealthy feeders. Everyone knows the admission stats simply reflect the application stats.

Between 2019 and 2020 (the last year FCPS seems to have published the racial breakdown of applicants)
Asian applicants went from 1423 to 1535 +112
Black applicants went from 160 to 272 +112
Hispanic applicants went from 208 to 272 +64
White applicant went from 595 to 726 +131
multiracial applicants went from 153 to 206 +53

The largest increase in the applicant pool seems to once again be white kids.
Everybody understood who this was supposed to benefit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

If they were gifted, they'd easily qualify for Algebra in 7th. They'd also likely earn high scores on the PSAT without much or any prep. Last year in FCPS, there were 14 disadvantaged kids who passed the Algebra II SOL and another 122 who passed the Geometry one. Bright, disadvantaged kids are more than capable of meeting a minimum bar of Geometry in 8th. There's no need to water down TJ admissions for their benefit. (additionally, 165 black and hispanic kids passed the geometry sol in 8th, so there's no need to water down admissions to capture bright URMs)

Where are you getting this info?
I don't doubt you but I have not run across this data organized by race or income.
Did you mean pass or advance pass?

It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FALSE. The groups that saw the largest increases in representation at TJ were Hispanic and black students.

Comparing TJ enrollment in fall of 2020 to the fall of 2024
+ 83 Hispanic students (+151%)
+ 74 black students (+231%)
+ 50 more white students (+15%)
+ 24 more multi/other (+27%)
- 28 fewer Asian students (-2%)

Yes, it's a far more welcoming place to many minorities than it had been. A more diverse group than ever applies now that admission isn't so rigged to favor the wealthy feeders. Everyone knows the admission stats simply reflect the application stats.

Between 2019 and 2020 (the last year FCPS seems to have published the racial breakdown of applicants)
Asian applicants went from 1423 to 1535 +112
Black applicants went from 160 to 272 +112
Hispanic applicants went from 208 to 272 +64
White applicant went from 595 to 726 +131
multiracial applicants went from 153 to 206 +53

The largest increase in the applicant pool seems to once again be white kids.
Everybody understood who this was supposed to benefit.

It seems like this data is published routinely. Even recently, the exact number of applicants and accepted students for each racial cohort was posted here and people were debating the diffs between 2023 and 2024.