Thomas Jefferson TJHSST - why not Honors Algebra I/Honors Geometry for TJ admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

If they were gifted, they'd easily qualify for Algebra in 7th. They'd also likely earn high scores on the PSAT without much or any prep. Last year in FCPS, there were 14 disadvantaged kids who passed the Algebra II SOL and another 122 who passed the Geometry one. Bright, disadvantaged kids are more than capable of meeting a minimum bar of Geometry in 8th. There's no need to water down TJ admissions for their benefit. (additionally, 165 black and hispanic kids passed the geometry sol in 8th, so there's no need to water down admissions to capture bright URMs)

Where are you getting this info?
I don't doubt you but I have not run across this data organized by race or income.
Did you mean pass or advance pass?

It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything.

WTH is wrong with you? I provided the link in my previous response. The info is coming directly from the VDOE website.

Again, for the people who aren't trolls and can actually read:
The VDOE test results build-a-table:
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/apex_captcha/home.do?apexTypeId=306

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FALSE. The groups that saw the largest increases in representation at TJ were Hispanic and black students.

Comparing TJ enrollment in fall of 2020 to the fall of 2024
+ 83 Hispanic students (+151%)
+ 74 black students (+231%)
+ 50 more white students (+15%)
+ 24 more multi/other (+27%)
- 28 fewer Asian students (-2%)

Yes, it's a far more welcoming place to many minorities than it had been. A more diverse group than ever applies now that admission isn't so rigged to favor the wealthy feeders. Everyone knows the admission stats simply reflect the application stats.

Between 2019 and 2020 (the last year FCPS seems to have published the racial breakdown of applicants)
Asian applicants went from 1423 to 1535 +112
Black applicants went from 160 to 272 +112
Hispanic applicants went from 208 to 272 +64
White applicant went from 595 to 726 +131
multiracial applicants went from 153 to 206 +53

The largest increase in the applicant pool seems to once again be white kids.
Everybody understood who this was supposed to benefit.

It seems like this data is published routinely. Even recently, the exact number of applicants and accepted students for each racial cohort was posted here and people were debating the diffs between 2023 and 2024.

I haven't seen it. Do you have a link.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

If they were gifted, they'd easily qualify for Algebra in 7th. They'd also likely earn high scores on the PSAT without much or any prep. Last year in FCPS, there were 14 disadvantaged kids who passed the Algebra II SOL and another 122 who passed the Geometry one. Bright, disadvantaged kids are more than capable of meeting a minimum bar of Geometry in 8th. There's no need to water down TJ admissions for their benefit. (additionally, 165 black and hispanic kids passed the geometry sol in 8th, so there's no need to water down admissions to capture bright URMs)

Where are you getting this info?
I don't doubt you but I have not run across this data organized by race or income.
Did you mean pass or advance pass?

It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything.

WTH is wrong with you? I provided the link in my previous response. The info is coming directly from the VDOE website.

Again, for the people who aren't trolls and can actually read:
The VDOE test results build-a-table:
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/apex_captcha/home.do?apexTypeId=306

I am the PPP that asked you for the link.?
Thanks for the link.
It is a bit janky and frequently spits out no data result. Were you looking at SOL pass rates (which is an extremely low threshhold) or advanced pass rates (which is still not particularly fine filter but much better than pass rates)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

If they were gifted, they'd easily qualify for Algebra in 7th. They'd also likely earn high scores on the PSAT without much or any prep. Last year in FCPS, there were 14 disadvantaged kids who passed the Algebra II SOL and another 122 who passed the Geometry one. Bright, disadvantaged kids are more than capable of meeting a minimum bar of Geometry in 8th. There's no need to water down TJ admissions for their benefit. (additionally, 165 black and hispanic kids passed the geometry sol in 8th, so there's no need to water down admissions to capture bright URMs)

Where are you getting this info?
I don't doubt you but I have not run across this data organized by race or income.
Did you mean pass or advance pass?

It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything.

WTH is wrong with you? I provided the link in my previous response. The info is coming directly from the VDOE website.

Again, for the people who aren't trolls and can actually read:
The VDOE test results build-a-table:
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/apex_captcha/home.do?apexTypeId=306

I am the PPP that asked you for the link.?
Thanks for the link.
It is a bit janky and frequently spits out no data result. Were you looking at SOL pass rates (which is an extremely low threshhold) or advanced pass rates (which is still not particularly fine filter but much better than pass rates)

Are you the PP who posted this in response to the data:
"It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything."

If you use the tool properly, it should give you data. It is a bit slow, so you need to be patient.

You can select all of the pass rates, counts, pass advanced, etc. The graph will display all of it in multiple columns for your selected parameters.

I selected division > fairfax County
Grade > 8
Disadvantaged > select both yes and no
Test > Geometry
statistic > all

To select multiple things in a column, click on the first one you want, and then while holding shift, click on the last one.

The data is all there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

If they were gifted, they'd easily qualify for Algebra in 7th. They'd also likely earn high scores on the PSAT without much or any prep. Last year in FCPS, there were 14 disadvantaged kids who passed the Algebra II SOL and another 122 who passed the Geometry one. Bright, disadvantaged kids are more than capable of meeting a minimum bar of Geometry in 8th. There's no need to water down TJ admissions for their benefit. (additionally, 165 black and hispanic kids passed the geometry sol in 8th, so there's no need to water down admissions to capture bright URMs)

Where are you getting this info?
I don't doubt you but I have not run across this data organized by race or income.
Did you mean pass or advance pass?

It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything.

WTH is wrong with you? I provided the link in my previous response. The info is coming directly from the VDOE website.

Again, for the people who aren't trolls and can actually read:
The VDOE test results build-a-table:
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/apex_captcha/home.do?apexTypeId=306

I am the PPP that asked you for the link.?
Thanks for the link.
It is a bit janky and frequently spits out no data result. Were you looking at SOL pass rates (which is an extremely low threshhold) or advanced pass rates (which is still not particularly fine filter but much better than pass rates)

Are you the PP who posted this in response to the data:
"It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything."

If you use the tool properly, it should give you data. It is a bit slow, so you need to be patient.

You can select all of the pass rates, counts, pass advanced, etc. The graph will display all of it in multiple columns for your selected parameters.

I selected division > fairfax County
Grade > 8
Disadvantaged > select both yes and no
Test > Geometry
statistic > all

To select multiple things in a column, click on the first one you want, and then while holding shift, click on the last one.

The data is all there.

No I am the PPP (3Ps) that said i don't doubt you
Thanks again for the link.
It looks like youa re talking about the pass rate which is such a low threshhold.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

Isn't 8th grade geometry available at all middle schools? Why isn't that metric used?

Because it would cut out all of the kids whose parents didn’t know how to game the system by pushing their kids into extra accelerated classes early on.

It was encouraging the race to nowhere.

But none of that is needed to access geometry in 7th. Any kid who is naturally bright at math will end up in the FCPS advanced math track. Among those kids, any who are bright and mathy should be able to clear the IAAT bar without any prep or studying. Algebra I in 7th is a path that doesn't require parents to do anything at all. Any kid who is naturally 98th percentile or higher should easily qualify without any parental intervention or outside enrichment or anything. Last year, a reasonable number of FARMS 8th graders took the Geometry SOL, and a few even took the Algebra II one. It's kind of absurd not to look at math level, since the FARMS kids who are accelerated like that are certainly naturally gifted at math.

Very few kids have access to Geometry in 7th grade because very few kids take Algebra 1 in 6th grade. The reason why kids end up in Algebra II in 8th grade is that they take Geometry in the summer.

Ideally Algebra 1 in 6th grade is the best option, and the next best alternative is Geometry in 7th summer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lol what is this BS.

It's not Thomass Jefferson High School of Math, Mathematics, and Mathing.

You can take multivariable calculus online while attending your home school if it's so important, instead of insisting someone else, take Geometry online or in summer camp.

Thank you! Great point!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

If they were gifted, they'd easily qualify for Algebra in 7th. They'd also likely earn high scores on the PSAT without much or any prep. Last year in FCPS, there were 14 disadvantaged kids who passed the Algebra II SOL and another 122 who passed the Geometry one. Bright, disadvantaged kids are more than capable of meeting a minimum bar of Geometry in 8th. There's no need to water down TJ admissions for their benefit. (additionally, 165 black and hispanic kids passed the geometry sol in 8th, so there's no need to water down admissions to capture bright URMs)

Where are you getting this info?
I don't doubt you but I have not run across this data organized by race or income.
Did you mean pass or advance pass?

It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything.

WTH is wrong with you? I provided the link in my previous response. The info is coming directly from the VDOE website.

Again, for the people who aren't trolls and can actually read:
The VDOE test results build-a-table:
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/apex_captcha/home.do?apexTypeId=306

I am the PPP that asked you for the link.?
Thanks for the link.
It is a bit janky and frequently spits out no data result. Were you looking at SOL pass rates (which is an extremely low threshhold) or advanced pass rates (which is still not particularly fine filter but much better than pass rates)

Are you the PP who posted this in response to the data:
"It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything."

If you use the tool properly, it should give you data. It is a bit slow, so you need to be patient.

You can select all of the pass rates, counts, pass advanced, etc. The graph will display all of it in multiple columns for your selected parameters.

I selected division > fairfax County
Grade > 8
Disadvantaged > select both yes and no
Test > Geometry
statistic > all

To select multiple things in a column, click on the first one you want, and then while holding shift, click on the last one.

The data is all there.

No I am the PPP (3Ps) that said i don't doubt you
Thanks again for the link.
It looks like youa re talking about the pass rate which is such a low threshhold.

A pass in 8th grade geometry is a higher threshold than a pass advanced in 8th grade algebra. Such a student would be much better prepared for TJ geometry than one who got pass advanced in 8th grade algebra.

Also, is pass advanced in algebra even a requirement for TJ? I thought it was just being enrolled in 8th grade algebra.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

If they were gifted, they'd easily qualify for Algebra in 7th. They'd also likely earn high scores on the PSAT without much or any prep. Last year in FCPS, there were 14 disadvantaged kids who passed the Algebra II SOL and another 122 who passed the Geometry one. Bright, disadvantaged kids are more than capable of meeting a minimum bar of Geometry in 8th. There's no need to water down TJ admissions for their benefit. (additionally, 165 black and hispanic kids passed the geometry sol in 8th, so there's no need to water down admissions to capture bright URMs)

Where are you getting this info?
I don't doubt you but I have not run across this data organized by race or income.
Did you mean pass or advance pass?

It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything.

WTH is wrong with you? I provided the link in my previous response. The info is coming directly from the VDOE website.

Again, for the people who aren't trolls and can actually read:
The VDOE test results build-a-table:
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/apex_captcha/home.do?apexTypeId=306

I am the PPP that asked you for the link.?
Thanks for the link.
It is a bit janky and frequently spits out no data result. Were you looking at SOL pass rates (which is an extremely low threshhold) or advanced pass rates (which is still not particularly fine filter but much better than pass rates)

Are you the PP who posted this in response to the data:
"It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything."

If you use the tool properly, it should give you data. It is a bit slow, so you need to be patient.

You can select all of the pass rates, counts, pass advanced, etc. The graph will display all of it in multiple columns for your selected parameters.

I selected division > fairfax County
Grade > 8
Disadvantaged > select both yes and no
Test > Geometry
statistic > all

To select multiple things in a column, click on the first one you want, and then while holding shift, click on the last one.

The data is all there.

No I am the PPP (3Ps) that said i don't doubt you
Thanks again for the link.
It looks like youa re talking about the pass rate which is such a low threshhold.

A pass in 8th grade geometry is a higher threshold than a pass advanced in 8th grade algebra. Such a student would be much better prepared for TJ geometry than one who got pass advanced in 8th grade algebra.

Also, is pass advanced in algebra even a requirement for TJ? I thought it was just being enrolled in 8th grade algebra.

The requirement is for A's in honors math and honors science and completion of Algebra 1 H by the end of 8th grade. SOL scores are not included in the application. You could not require a Pass Advanced in Algebra for TJ since the kids taking Algebra 1 H in 8th grade will not have taken that SOL by the time applications are due. They are not going to provide provisional acceptances for kids for TJ or delay waiting for SOL scores to determine who has been accepted because it would be too late in the year.

I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect Pass Advanced in English and Math SOLs in 7th grade but that is not included on the test. Heck, they could actually include a math MAP score that is needed if the wanted to that would indicate where a child is in their math fluency.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

If they were gifted, they'd easily qualify for Algebra in 7th. They'd also likely earn high scores on the PSAT without much or any prep. Last year in FCPS, there were 14 disadvantaged kids who passed the Algebra II SOL and another 122 who passed the Geometry one. Bright, disadvantaged kids are more than capable of meeting a minimum bar of Geometry in 8th. There's no need to water down TJ admissions for their benefit. (additionally, 165 black and hispanic kids passed the geometry sol in 8th, so there's no need to water down admissions to capture bright URMs)

Where are you getting this info?
I don't doubt you but I have not run across this data organized by race or income.
Did you mean pass or advance pass?

It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything.

WTH is wrong with you? I provided the link in my previous response. The info is coming directly from the VDOE website.

Again, for the people who aren't trolls and can actually read:
The VDOE test results build-a-table:
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/apex_captcha/home.do?apexTypeId=306

I am the PPP that asked you for the link.?
Thanks for the link.
It is a bit janky and frequently spits out no data result. Were you looking at SOL pass rates (which is an extremely low threshhold) or advanced pass rates (which is still not particularly fine filter but much better than pass rates)

Are you the PP who posted this in response to the data:
"It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything."

If you use the tool properly, it should give you data. It is a bit slow, so you need to be patient.

You can select all of the pass rates, counts, pass advanced, etc. The graph will display all of it in multiple columns for your selected parameters.

I selected division > fairfax County
Grade > 8
Disadvantaged > select both yes and no
Test > Geometry
statistic > all

To select multiple things in a column, click on the first one you want, and then while holding shift, click on the last one.

The data is all there.

No I am the PPP (3Ps) that said i don't doubt you
Thanks again for the link.
It looks like youa re talking about the pass rate which is such a low threshhold.

A pass in 8th grade geometry is a higher threshold than a pass advanced in 8th grade algebra. Such a student would be much better prepared for TJ geometry than one who got pass advanced in 8th grade algebra.

Also, is pass advanced in algebra even a requirement for TJ? I thought it was just being enrolled in 8th grade algebra.

The requirement is for A's in honors math and honors science and completion of Algebra 1 H by the end of 8th grade. SOL scores are not included in the application. You could not require a Pass Advanced in Algebra for TJ since the kids taking Algebra 1 H in 8th grade will not have taken that SOL by the time applications are due. They are not going to provide provisional acceptances for kids for TJ or delay waiting for SOL scores to determine who has been accepted because it would be too late in the year.

I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect Pass Advanced in English and Math SOLs in 7th grade but that is not included on the test. Heck, they could actually include a math MAP score that is needed if the wanted to that would indicate where a child is in their math fluency.

all this convoluted justification instead of a straightforward 'tryout evaluation' for forming a qualified team ( TJ class)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

If they were gifted, they'd easily qualify for Algebra in 7th. They'd also likely earn high scores on the PSAT without much or any prep. Last year in FCPS, there were 14 disadvantaged kids who passed the Algebra II SOL and another 122 who passed the Geometry one. Bright, disadvantaged kids are more than capable of meeting a minimum bar of Geometry in 8th. There's no need to water down TJ admissions for their benefit. (additionally, 165 black and hispanic kids passed the geometry sol in 8th, so there's no need to water down admissions to capture bright URMs)

Where are you getting this info?
I don't doubt you but I have not run across this data organized by race or income.
Did you mean pass or advance pass?

It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything.

WTH is wrong with you? I provided the link in my previous response. The info is coming directly from the VDOE website.

Again, for the people who aren't trolls and can actually read:
The VDOE test results build-a-table:
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/apex_captcha/home.do?apexTypeId=306

I am the PPP that asked you for the link.?
Thanks for the link.
It is a bit janky and frequently spits out no data result. Were you looking at SOL pass rates (which is an extremely low threshhold) or advanced pass rates (which is still not particularly fine filter but much better than pass rates)

Are you the PP who posted this in response to the data:
"It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything."

If you use the tool properly, it should give you data. It is a bit slow, so you need to be patient.

You can select all of the pass rates, counts, pass advanced, etc. The graph will display all of it in multiple columns for your selected parameters.

I selected division > fairfax County
Grade > 8
Disadvantaged > select both yes and no
Test > Geometry
statistic > all

To select multiple things in a column, click on the first one you want, and then while holding shift, click on the last one.

The data is all there.

No I am the PPP (3Ps) that said i don't doubt you
Thanks again for the link.
It looks like youa re talking about the pass rate which is such a low threshhold.

A pass in 8th grade geometry is a higher threshold than a pass advanced in 8th grade algebra. Such a student would be much better prepared for TJ geometry than one who got pass advanced in 8th grade algebra.

Also, is pass advanced in algebra even a requirement for TJ? I thought it was just being enrolled in 8th grade algebra.

The requirement is for A's in honors math and honors science and completion of Algebra 1 H by the end of 8th grade. SOL scores are not included in the application. You could not require a Pass Advanced in Algebra for TJ since the kids taking Algebra 1 H in 8th grade will not have taken that SOL by the time applications are due. They are not going to provide provisional acceptances for kids for TJ or delay waiting for SOL scores to determine who has been accepted because it would be too late in the year.

I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect Pass Advanced in English and Math SOLs in 7th grade but that is not included on the test. Heck, they could actually include a math MAP score that is needed if the wanted to that would indicate where a child is in their math fluency.

all this convoluted justification instead of a straightforward 'tryout evaluation' for forming a qualified team ( TJ class)?

If people had not made test banks that caused the test scores to be invalid then they would be using the Quant test. When test prep schools advertise that they are getting in a high number of their students and those students discuss memorizing questions to build up a test bank, you lose the Quant test. (shrugs)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

If they were gifted, they'd easily qualify for Algebra in 7th. They'd also likely earn high scores on the PSAT without much or any prep. Last year in FCPS, there were 14 disadvantaged kids who passed the Algebra II SOL and another 122 who passed the Geometry one. Bright, disadvantaged kids are more than capable of meeting a minimum bar of Geometry in 8th. There's no need to water down TJ admissions for their benefit. (additionally, 165 black and hispanic kids passed the geometry sol in 8th, so there's no need to water down admissions to capture bright URMs)

Where are you getting this info?
I don't doubt you but I have not run across this data organized by race or income.
Did you mean pass or advance pass?

It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything.

WTH is wrong with you? I provided the link in my previous response. The info is coming directly from the VDOE website.

Again, for the people who aren't trolls and can actually read:
The VDOE test results build-a-table:
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/apex_captcha/home.do?apexTypeId=306

I am the PPP that asked you for the link.?
Thanks for the link.
It is a bit janky and frequently spits out no data result. Were you looking at SOL pass rates (which is an extremely low threshhold) or advanced pass rates (which is still not particularly fine filter but much better than pass rates)

Are you the PP who posted this in response to the data:
"It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything."

If you use the tool properly, it should give you data. It is a bit slow, so you need to be patient.

You can select all of the pass rates, counts, pass advanced, etc. The graph will display all of it in multiple columns for your selected parameters.

I selected division > fairfax County
Grade > 8
Disadvantaged > select both yes and no
Test > Geometry
statistic > all

To select multiple things in a column, click on the first one you want, and then while holding shift, click on the last one.

The data is all there.

No I am the PPP (3Ps) that said i don't doubt you
Thanks again for the link.
It looks like youa re talking about the pass rate which is such a low threshhold.

A pass in 8th grade geometry is a higher threshold than a pass advanced in 8th grade algebra. Such a student would be much better prepared for TJ geometry than one who got pass advanced in 8th grade algebra.

Also, is pass advanced in algebra even a requirement for TJ? I thought it was just being enrolled in 8th grade algebra.

The requirement is for A's in honors math and honors science and completion of Algebra 1 H by the end of 8th grade. SOL scores are not included in the application. You could not require a Pass Advanced in Algebra for TJ since the kids taking Algebra 1 H in 8th grade will not have taken that SOL by the time applications are due. They are not going to provide provisional acceptances for kids for TJ or delay waiting for SOL scores to determine who has been accepted because it would be too late in the year.

I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect Pass Advanced in English and Math SOLs in 7th grade but that is not included on the test. Heck, they could actually include a math MAP score that is needed if the wanted to that would indicate where a child is in their math fluency.

all this convoluted justification instead of a straightforward 'tryout evaluation' for forming a qualified team ( TJ class)?

If people had not made test banks that caused the test scores to be invalid then they would be using the Quant test. When test prep schools advertise that they are getting in a high number of their students and those students discuss memorizing questions to build up a test bank, you lose the Quant test. (shrugs)

And test prep schools are now prepping for the new test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

If they were gifted, they'd easily qualify for Algebra in 7th. They'd also likely earn high scores on the PSAT without much or any prep. Last year in FCPS, there were 14 disadvantaged kids who passed the Algebra II SOL and another 122 who passed the Geometry one. Bright, disadvantaged kids are more than capable of meeting a minimum bar of Geometry in 8th. There's no need to water down TJ admissions for their benefit. (additionally, 165 black and hispanic kids passed the geometry sol in 8th, so there's no need to water down admissions to capture bright URMs)

Where are you getting this info?
I don't doubt you but I have not run across this data organized by race or income.
Did you mean pass or advance pass?

It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything.

WTH is wrong with you? I provided the link in my previous response. The info is coming directly from the VDOE website.

Again, for the people who aren't trolls and can actually read:
The VDOE test results build-a-table:
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/apex_captcha/home.do?apexTypeId=306

I am the PPP that asked you for the link.?
Thanks for the link.
It is a bit janky and frequently spits out no data result. Were you looking at SOL pass rates (which is an extremely low threshhold) or advanced pass rates (which is still not particularly fine filter but much better than pass rates)

Are you the PP who posted this in response to the data:
"It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything."

If you use the tool properly, it should give you data. It is a bit slow, so you need to be patient.

You can select all of the pass rates, counts, pass advanced, etc. The graph will display all of it in multiple columns for your selected parameters.

I selected division > fairfax County
Grade > 8
Disadvantaged > select both yes and no
Test > Geometry
statistic > all

To select multiple things in a column, click on the first one you want, and then while holding shift, click on the last one.

The data is all there.

No I am the PPP (3Ps) that said i don't doubt you
Thanks again for the link.
It looks like youa re talking about the pass rate which is such a low threshhold.

A pass in 8th grade geometry is a higher threshold than a pass advanced in 8th grade algebra. Such a student would be much better prepared for TJ geometry than one who got pass advanced in 8th grade algebra.

Also, is pass advanced in algebra even a requirement for TJ? I thought it was just being enrolled in 8th grade algebra.

The requirement is for A's in honors math and honors science and completion of Algebra 1 H by the end of 8th grade. SOL scores are not included in the application. You could not require a Pass Advanced in Algebra for TJ since the kids taking Algebra 1 H in 8th grade will not have taken that SOL by the time applications are due. They are not going to provide provisional acceptances for kids for TJ or delay waiting for SOL scores to determine who has been accepted because it would be too late in the year.

I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect Pass Advanced in English and Math SOLs in 7th grade but that is not included on the test. Heck, they could actually include a math MAP score that is needed if the wanted to that would indicate where a child is in their math fluency.

all this convoluted justification instead of a straightforward 'tryout evaluation' for forming a qualified team ( TJ class)?

If people had not made test banks that caused the test scores to be invalid then they would be using the Quant test. When test prep schools advertise that they are getting in a high number of their students and those students discuss memorizing questions to build up a test bank, you lose the Quant test. (shrugs)

A test that loses validity because prior of version of the test are available is not a good test.

The solution to test prep is to be more transparent, to reduce the barrier to prepping, not increasing them.

Quant Q's ambush testing was always a stupid idea

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

If they were gifted, they'd easily qualify for Algebra in 7th. They'd also likely earn high scores on the PSAT without much or any prep. Last year in FCPS, there were 14 disadvantaged kids who passed the Algebra II SOL and another 122 who passed the Geometry one. Bright, disadvantaged kids are more than capable of meeting a minimum bar of Geometry in 8th. There's no need to water down TJ admissions for their benefit. (additionally, 165 black and hispanic kids passed the geometry sol in 8th, so there's no need to water down admissions to capture bright URMs)

Where are you getting this info?
I don't doubt you but I have not run across this data organized by race or income.
Did you mean pass or advance pass?

It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything.

WTH is wrong with you? I provided the link in my previous response. The info is coming directly from the VDOE website.

Again, for the people who aren't trolls and can actually read:
The VDOE test results build-a-table:
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/apex_captcha/home.do?apexTypeId=306

I am the PPP that asked you for the link.?
Thanks for the link.
It is a bit janky and frequently spits out no data result. Were you looking at SOL pass rates (which is an extremely low threshhold) or advanced pass rates (which is still not particularly fine filter but much better than pass rates)

Are you the PP who posted this in response to the data:
"It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything."

If you use the tool properly, it should give you data. It is a bit slow, so you need to be patient.

You can select all of the pass rates, counts, pass advanced, etc. The graph will display all of it in multiple columns for your selected parameters.

I selected division > fairfax County
Grade > 8
Disadvantaged > select both yes and no
Test > Geometry
statistic > all

To select multiple things in a column, click on the first one you want, and then while holding shift, click on the last one.

The data is all there.

No I am the PPP (3Ps) that said i don't doubt you
Thanks again for the link.
It looks like youa re talking about the pass rate which is such a low threshhold.

A pass in 8th grade geometry is a higher threshold than a pass advanced in 8th grade algebra. Such a student would be much better prepared for TJ geometry than one who got pass advanced in 8th grade algebra.

Also, is pass advanced in algebra even a requirement for TJ? I thought it was just being enrolled in 8th grade algebra.

The requirement is for A's in honors math and honors science and completion of Algebra 1 H by the end of 8th grade. SOL scores are not included in the application. You could not require a Pass Advanced in Algebra for TJ since the kids taking Algebra 1 H in 8th grade will not have taken that SOL by the time applications are due. They are not going to provide provisional acceptances for kids for TJ or delay waiting for SOL scores to determine who has been accepted because it would be too late in the year.

I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect Pass Advanced in English and Math SOLs in 7th grade but that is not included on the test. Heck, they could actually include a math MAP score that is needed if the wanted to that would indicate where a child is in their math fluency.

all this convoluted justification instead of a straightforward 'tryout evaluation' for forming a qualified team ( TJ class)?

If people had not made test banks that caused the test scores to be invalid then they would be using the Quant test. When test prep schools advertise that they are getting in a high number of their students and those students discuss memorizing questions to build up a test bank, you lose the Quant test. (shrugs)

And test prep schools are now prepping for the new test.

Kids from affluent families will always have some advantages. No need to drive the disparity even further.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

If they were gifted, they'd easily qualify for Algebra in 7th. They'd also likely earn high scores on the PSAT without much or any prep. Last year in FCPS, there were 14 disadvantaged kids who passed the Algebra II SOL and another 122 who passed the Geometry one. Bright, disadvantaged kids are more than capable of meeting a minimum bar of Geometry in 8th. There's no need to water down TJ admissions for their benefit. (additionally, 165 black and hispanic kids passed the geometry sol in 8th, so there's no need to water down admissions to capture bright URMs)

Where are you getting this info?
I don't doubt you but I have not run across this data organized by race or income.
Did you mean pass or advance pass?

It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything.

WTH is wrong with you? I provided the link in my previous response. The info is coming directly from the VDOE website.

Again, for the people who aren't trolls and can actually read:
The VDOE test results build-a-table:
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/apex_captcha/home.do?apexTypeId=306

I am the PPP that asked you for the link.?
Thanks for the link.
It is a bit janky and frequently spits out no data result. Were you looking at SOL pass rates (which is an extremely low threshhold) or advanced pass rates (which is still not particularly fine filter but much better than pass rates)

Are you the PP who posted this in response to the data:
"It's just an assumption based on my personal bias is all. I mean this isn't factual or anything."

If you use the tool properly, it should give you data. It is a bit slow, so you need to be patient.

You can select all of the pass rates, counts, pass advanced, etc. The graph will display all of it in multiple columns for your selected parameters.

I selected division > fairfax County
Grade > 8
Disadvantaged > select both yes and no
Test > Geometry
statistic > all

To select multiple things in a column, click on the first one you want, and then while holding shift, click on the last one.

The data is all there.

No I am the PPP (3Ps) that said i don't doubt you
Thanks again for the link.
It looks like youa re talking about the pass rate which is such a low threshhold.

A pass in 8th grade geometry is a higher threshold than a pass advanced in 8th grade algebra. Such a student would be much better prepared for TJ geometry than one who got pass advanced in 8th grade algebra.

Also, is pass advanced in algebra even a requirement for TJ? I thought it was just being enrolled in 8th grade algebra.

The requirement is for A's in honors math and honors science and completion of Algebra 1 H by the end of 8th grade. SOL scores are not included in the application. You could not require a Pass Advanced in Algebra for TJ since the kids taking Algebra 1 H in 8th grade will not have taken that SOL by the time applications are due. They are not going to provide provisional acceptances for kids for TJ or delay waiting for SOL scores to determine who has been accepted because it would be too late in the year.

I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect Pass Advanced in English and Math SOLs in 7th grade but that is not included on the test. Heck, they could actually include a math MAP score that is needed if the wanted to that would indicate where a child is in their math fluency.

all this convoluted justification instead of a straightforward 'tryout evaluation' for forming a qualified team ( TJ class)?

If people had not made test banks that caused the test scores to be invalid then they would be using the Quant test. When test prep schools advertise that they are getting in a high number of their students and those students discuss memorizing questions to build up a test bank, you lose the Quant test. (shrugs)

A test that loses validity because prior of version of the test are available is not a good test.

The solution to test prep is to be more transparent, to reduce the barrier to prepping, not increasing them.

Quant Q's ambush testing was always a stupid idea

Or....use a test that ALL kids already prepare for...