Thomas Jefferson TJHSST - why not Honors Algebra I/Honors Geometry for TJ admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Every student in FCPS can access Honors Algebra I and Honors Geometry online. Any student ending 8th grade without taking Honors Geometry online through FCPS or an equivalent program. Summer Geometry can be provided to students outside of FCPS for any student accepted to TJ. Any student that doesn’t meet this requirement before 9th grade will free up spots for the next kids on the list who have met the requirements.

If this was the case, all FCPS students that are applying to TJ should get the 0.5 bump on their GPA for taking an honors high school class (or a 1.0 bump for taking AP Pre-Calculus or higher level AP courses). This would allow the committee to include aptitude for higher levels of math in their holistic review for FCPS students (this doesn’t need to be a requirement for other counties).

If the concern is about equity and students from lower income households needing to provide child care for younger siblings and not being able to take a summer course, Fairfax County can provide that care through camps (which are already set up in most high FARMS middle schools and add elementary students).

This would allow the committee to find students for aptitude to take higher level courses. Students who aren’t able to keep up with online math courses won’t need to access the higher level AP math/science courses at TJ as they will not surpass what would be offered through local high schools.

Why don't they just use the parent's HHI to determine admission? I mean, wealthy schools always have more opportunities for advancement, and parents often spend on outside enrichment to give their kids an advantage over others. Why not just embrace this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every student in FCPS can access Honors Algebra I and Honors Geometry online. Any student ending 8th grade without taking Honors Geometry online through FCPS or an equivalent program. Summer Geometry can be provided to students outside of FCPS for any student accepted to TJ. Any student that doesn’t meet this requirement before 9th grade will free up spots for the next kids on the list who have met the requirements.

If this was the case, all FCPS students that are applying to TJ should get the 0.5 bump on their GPA for taking an honors high school class (or a 1.0 bump for taking AP Pre-Calculus or higher level AP courses). This would allow the committee to include aptitude for higher levels of math in their holistic review for FCPS students (this doesn’t need to be a requirement for other counties).

If the concern is about equity and students from lower income households needing to provide child care for younger siblings and not being able to take a summer course, Fairfax County can provide that care through camps (which are already set up in most high FARMS middle schools and add elementary students).

This would allow the committee to find students for aptitude to take higher level courses. Students who aren’t able to keep up with online math courses won’t need to access the higher level AP math/science courses at TJ as they will not surpass what would be offered through local high schools.

Why don't they just use the parent's HHI to determine admission? I mean, wealthy schools always have more opportunities for advancement, and parents often spend on outside enrichment to give their kids an advantage over others. Why not just embrace this?

That’s basically what we had before. TJ had an extremely low FRE rate.

Less than 1% for class of 2024.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every student in FCPS can access Honors Algebra I and Honors Geometry online. Any student ending 8th grade without taking Honors Geometry online through FCPS or an equivalent program. Summer Geometry can be provided to students outside of FCPS for any student accepted to TJ. Any student that doesn’t meet this requirement before 9th grade will free up spots for the next kids on the list who have met the requirements.

If this was the case, all FCPS students that are applying to TJ should get the 0.5 bump on their GPA for taking an honors high school class (or a 1.0 bump for taking AP Pre-Calculus or higher level AP courses). This would allow the committee to include aptitude for higher levels of math in their holistic review for FCPS students (this doesn’t need to be a requirement for other counties).

If the concern is about equity and students from lower income households needing to provide child care for younger siblings and not being able to take a summer course, Fairfax County can provide that care through camps (which are already set up in most high FARMS middle schools and add elementary students).

This would allow the committee to find students for aptitude to take higher level courses. Students who aren’t able to keep up with online math courses won’t need to access the higher level AP math/science courses at TJ as they will not surpass what would be offered through local high schools.

Why don't they just use the parent's HHI to determine admission? I mean, wealthy schools always have more opportunities for advancement, and parents often spend on outside enrichment to give their kids an advantage over others. Why not just embrace this?

That’s basically what we had before. TJ had an extremely low FRE rate.

Less than 1% for class of 2024.

It allowed people with means to game admission and wasn't fair to the vast majority of county residents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

People who work harder do better.
It's wild that you think effort=cheating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

People who work harder do better.
It's wild that you think effort=cheating.

Strawman. No one said that.

Parents who paid for test prep programs that "cracked the test" gave their kids an unfair advantages over kids who don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

Do you know what peer reviewed research means?
This peer reviewed study from the proceedings of the national academy of science.
The study corrects for SES, and it actually only compares whites to asians and found a significant disparity in academic achievement that was closely correlated with amount of study time.

The achievement gap is largely the result of an effort gap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

Do you know what peer reviewed research means?
This peer reviewed study from the proceedings of the national academy of science.
The study corrects for SES, and it actually only compares whites to asians and found a significant disparity in academic achievement that was closely correlated with amount of study time.

The achievement gap is largely the result of an effort gap.

When parents pay to send their kids to prep classes those hours add up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

Do you know what peer reviewed research means?
This peer reviewed study from the proceedings of the national academy of science.
The study corrects for SES, and it actually only compares whites to asians and found a significant disparity in academic achievement that was closely correlated with amount of study time.

The achievement gap is largely the result of an effort gap.

When parents pay to send their kids to prep classes those hours add up.

Yes, more affluent kids have more opportunities to make that effort.
All things being equal it takes a more talented poor kid to achieve as much as a more mediocre affluent kid.
But this doesn't mean a motivated poor kid can't outperform a equally talented affluent kid.
Stuyvesant high school in NYC is filled with poor kids that beat out more affluent kids.
It's about 80% asian, mostly the children of immigrants.
It was largely the children of immigrant jews when i went there.
I don't know what it will look like in another generation or two but I suspect it will continue to be the children of immigrants from a culture that places a high value on education.

These poor families make painful sacrifices to send their kids to enrichment classes when less motivated middle class families don't send their kids to enrichment classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

Do you know what peer reviewed research means?
This peer reviewed study from the proceedings of the national academy of science.
The study corrects for SES, and it actually only compares whites to asians and found a significant disparity in academic achievement that was closely correlated with amount of study time.

The achievement gap is largely the result of an effort gap.

When parents pay to send their kids to prep classes those hours add up.

Yes, more affluent kids have more opportunities to make that effort.
All things being equal it takes a more talented poor kid to achieve as much as a more mediocre affluent kid.
But this doesn't mean a motivated poor kid can't outperform a equally talented affluent kid.
Stuyvesant high school in NYC is filled with poor kids that beat out more affluent kids.
It's about 80% asian, mostly the children of immigrants.
It was largely the children of immigrant jews when i went there.
I don't know what it will look like in another generation or two but I suspect it will continue to be the children of immigrants from a culture that places a high value on education.

These poor families make painful sacrifices to send their kids to enrichment classes when less motivated middle class families don't send their kids to enrichment classes.

Affluent families in NY go to private schools, not Stuyvesant High School. Affluent families don’t even apply. Poor URM in NY are recruited by private schools, in the name of diversity. They are given scholarships and the like to attend. The really smart wealthy kids and the really smart URM in NY are attending private schools. The kids applying to Stuyvesant High School are really smart but not wealthy and not an under represented minority. It makes sense that it is less affluent Asian families that have placed an emphasis on education, a cultural trait that we all recognize, and not less affluent white families who are not making their kids study for extra hours or giving up family income to provide enrichment classes. The group that saw the largest percentage increase at TJ was poor Asian families, like the kids at Stuyvesant.

FCPS does not have access to the same type of private high schools that rich families in NY do, at least not without a pretty long commute. Families living in FCPS are less likely to send their kids to Sidwell or the Cathedral schools and the like because of the distance. Flint Hill and Potomac don’t have the same cache. There is more interest in TJ across the incomes because there are not as many private schools to absorb the wealthy families kids, like in NY. And the poor URM in FCPS are not the ones getting offers at the private schools looking to fill diversity spots, they are pulling from DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Actually, that study tells us nothing about Black and Latino kids, as it is only about an achievement gap between Asian American kids and White kids.

The study also explicitly talks about "immigrant selectivity" as the MOST definitive predictor of academic success, and socio-cultural issues as the LEAST definitive predictor. You are taking the wrong things away from this article. Yes, students whose parents immigrated specifically on the basis of employment and education perform better than a random sample of random white kids. But that's not based on effort, it is based on what their parents do. If the study limited the universe of participants to Asian American kids whose parents work in X industry, and White kids whose parents work in the same industry, I think most of those differences would disappear.

Finally, I'd call everyone's attention to this paragraph, which is particularly salient for the TJ discussion:

"These processes include ethnic communities that offer newly arrived Asian immigrants access to ethnic-specific resources such as supplemental schooling, private tutoring and college preparation, and vital information necessary for navigating the education system, resources that are often unavailable to other immigrant groups and poor or working-class natives (4)."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Currently, everything you ask for already exists outside TJ.

That is false. Until there is zero attainment gap between race and socioeconomic status the access to proper education to all children will be, by definition inadequate.

I went to a low SES high school. Most of my classes was spent watching the teacher crowd control the class. The total amount of time spent on quality education was literally under 5%. If my parents didn’t insist on me self studying after school I would have been screwed. Most of my very able classmates weren’t as lucky.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The achievement gap between races is largely explainable by an effort gap between races.
Here is some peer reviewed research presented at the proceedings of the national academy of science.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Yes, it's just a proxy for SES and that's why providing these opportunities to the many gifted lower-income students is more critical than ever. Besides the children of these wealthy families who spend so much on outside enrichment will be fine at any school.

Do you know what peer reviewed research means?
This peer reviewed study from the proceedings of the national academy of science.
The study corrects for SES, and it actually only compares whites to asians and found a significant disparity in academic achievement that was closely correlated with amount of study time.

The achievement gap is largely the result of an effort gap.

When parents pay to send their kids to prep classes those hours add up.

Yes, more affluent kids have more opportunities to make that effort.
All things being equal it takes a more talented poor kid to achieve as much as a more mediocre affluent kid.
But this doesn't mean a motivated poor kid can't outperform a equally talented affluent kid.
Stuyvesant high school in NYC is filled with poor kids that beat out more affluent kids.
It's about 80% asian, mostly the children of immigrants.
It was largely the children of immigrant jews when i went there.
I don't know what it will look like in another generation or two but I suspect it will continue to be the children of immigrants from a culture that places a high value on education.

These poor families make painful sacrifices to send their kids to enrichment classes when less motivated middle class families don't send their kids to enrichment classes.

Affluent families in NY go to private schools, not Stuyvesant High School. Affluent families don’t even apply. Poor URM in NY are recruited by private schools, in the name of diversity. They are given scholarships and the like to attend. The really smart wealthy kids and the really smart URM in NY are attending private schools. The kids applying to Stuyvesant High School are really smart but not wealthy and not an under represented minority. It makes sense that it is less affluent Asian families that have placed an emphasis on education, a cultural trait that we all recognize, and not less affluent white families who are not making their kids study for extra hours or giving up family income to provide enrichment classes. The group that saw the largest percentage increase at TJ was poor Asian families, like the kids at Stuyvesant.

Private high school tuition in NYC cost as much as college.
Plenty of kids who are not poor go to public schools.
Not a lot of law partners, investment bankers or management consultants but we had several professor's kids, some doctor's kids and engineer's kids.
The number of kids from places like forest hills was significant.

The largest increase at TJ was among white kids, the ONLY group to experience a decrease was asian kids.
You are data scraping subsets of racial groups to try and downplay the fact that the number of asian kids has been reduced.

FCPS does not have access to the same type of private high schools that rich families in NY do, at least not without a pretty long commute. Families living in FCPS are less likely to send their kids to Sidwell or the Cathedral schools and the like because of the distance. Flint Hill and Potomac don’t have the same cache. There is more interest in TJ across the incomes because there are not as many private schools to absorb the wealthy families kids, like in NY. And the poor URM in FCPS are not the ones getting offers at the private schools looking to fill diversity spots, they are pulling from DC.

Private schools also have busses, the commutes are frequently shorter than the commutes endured by TJ kids.
If you don't think families in McLean aren't trying to get their kids into Potomac, then your experience has been different than mine.
The big 3 might send a few more kids to top schools than Potomac but not by a lot.

TJ has the same income diversity problem that pretty much all suburban magnet schools have.
I'm not against increasing income diversity but picking kids practically at random is a bad way to do it.
I am fine with a FARM preference but lets try and select the most academically advanced kids.