Thomas Jefferson TJHSST - why not Honors Algebra I/Honors Geometry for TJ admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

It's a lot less toxic now that they stopped rewarding cheaters with admission.

Studying is not cheating.
Test prep is not cheating.
Only cheating is cheating.

Some people think that anyone that tries harder than them is cheating.
Those people are setting their kids up for failure.

I’ll agree that cheating isn’t the right word for test prep nor for the multi year planning that some families were doing of their kids’ activities and outside math classes with an intentional view on maximizing their odds of getting into TJ.

But the SB - and many in FCPS community - clearly did not think that was the intended atmosphere that was desired re: admissions. I agree. I don’t think that “failure” to devote extensive non-school hours to “studying” non-school material should put a kid at a disadvantage for admissions to TJ if they are otherwise in advanced math and doing great there.

I’m in favor of using math SOLs and giving preference to kids for being in at least Geometry in 8th as that is a path accessible to all kids in the county if they have the math aptitude for it. I would not give bonus points for doing Alg 2 because it’s not a path widely available in the county even for kids at AAP centers. On top of that I would let each normal MS pick 3 kids and each AAP center pick 4-5 kids that are true standouts and nominate them strongly to try to ensure the true outlier kids (vs just those that studied non-school stuff a lot) are captured.

I get that everyone wants the amount of effort THEIR kids put in to be the optimal amount of effort but that is not how competition works.
The kid that works more has an advantage over the kid that works less.

The purpose of the governor's schools is about advanced content. I generally agree that there is no need to provide an preference for kids that are taking algebra 2 because that really does encourage unnecessary and sometimes harmful acceleration. Almost nobody benefits from 2 years of post-calc math electives. But that doesn't mean we ignore academic achievement, we measure kids based on their ability not on what we think their ability might be if only they worked as hard as the other kids.

If you want to use SOLs I would caution you that SOLs are even more subject to outside enrichment than standardized tests.
You can learn how to take a standardized test in 6 to 8 sessions (whether you pay $300 or $3000 for those sessions, there is no secret sauce, standardized tests were "cracked" decades ago and the differences in test scores mostly measure differences in merit).
The SOLs take more time and effort to prep (which ironically makes it more preppable) and do not have as many low cost or free resources available as something like the PSAT.

Just based on what I have seen in the AAP process, allowing schools to "nominate" students will become problematic very quickly. We should not be picking kids because their parents are the PTA president.

I think we can keep the 1.5% MS quota so we can compare "apples to apples" in terms of resources but pick the "best" 1.5% (it's just too random right now) and set an absolute floor for the PSAT at the 80th percentile or something. Because at some point we are not doing them any favors by putting them in TJ if they are too far behind.
My impression is that almost half the students at TJ are getting at least 1 "C" in a core class every year.
These are all students that could be pulling straight A's (or close to it) at their base school.
TJ is not like Yale where once you get in, almost anyone can graduate with a decent GPA by avoiding the hard classes. It's more like MIT where kids that skated through school suddenly find themselves challenged.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

Equating spending $600 on test prep with "wealthy" is wild.

The notion that cheating is any worse at TJ than any other school is dubious.
The notion that cheating is any better now than 5 years ago is laughable.

Was cheating worse at TJ than other area high schools? I don't know but it's certainly plausible - cheating is rampant at high pressure schools and TJ was the highest pressure school. It is lower pressure now. Is cheating lower now? It's plausible.

I wouldn't say that equating $600 on test prep is wild, but I would agree that test prep to get into TJ starting in grade school and/or at Sunday School is wild.

True, but many spent more like $20k on elite prep where their children were spoon fed actual test questions from a question bank that was compiled in violation of an NDA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

It's a lot less toxic now that they stopped rewarding cheaters with admission.

Studying is not cheating.
Test prep is not cheating.
Only cheating is cheating.

Some people think that anyone that tries harder than them is cheating.
Those people are setting their kids up for failure.

I’ll agree that cheating isn’t the right word for test prep nor for the multi year planning that some families were doing of their kids’ activities and outside math classes with an intentional view on maximizing their odds of getting into TJ.

But the SB - and many in FCPS community - clearly did not think that was the intended atmosphere that was desired re: admissions. I agree. I don’t think that “failure” to devote extensive non-school hours to “studying” non-school material should put a kid at a disadvantage for admissions to TJ if they are otherwise in advanced math and doing great there.

I’m in favor of using math SOLs and giving preference to kids for being in at least Geometry in 8th as that is a path accessible to all kids in the county if they have the math aptitude for it. I would not give bonus points for doing Alg 2 because it’s not a path widely available in the county even for kids at AAP centers. On top of that I would let each normal MS pick 3 kids and each AAP center pick 4-5 kids that are true standouts and nominate them strongly to try to ensure the true outlier kids (vs just those that studied non-school stuff a lot) are captured.

I get that everyone wants the amount of effort THEIR kids put in to be the optimal amount of effort but that is not how competition works.

The kid that works more has an advantage over the kid that works less.

The purpose of the governor's schools is about advanced content. I generally agree that there is no need to provide an preference for kids that are taking algebra 2 because that really does encourage unnecessary and sometimes harmful acceleration.

hahahhahjahahjahahajaha

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

Equating spending $600 on test prep with "wealthy" is wild.

The notion that cheating is any worse at TJ than any other school is dubious.
The notion that cheating is any better now than 5 years ago is laughable.

Was cheating worse at TJ than other area high schools? I don't know but it's certainly plausible - cheating is rampant at high pressure schools and TJ was the highest pressure school. It is lower pressure now. Is cheating lower now? It's plausible.

I wouldn't say that equating $600 on test prep is wild, but I would agree that test prep to get into TJ starting in grade school and/or at Sunday School is wild.

True, but many spent more like $20k on elite prep where their children were spoon fed actual test questions from a question bank that was compiled in violation of an NDA.

The stupid part there is the NDA. Education doesn't care about NDA

[Anonymous]

As a family who moved here from a place without math acceleration available - how does my student get placed out of algebra 2 [in geometry this year]? my kid has already done all the curriculum for geometry and wants to just move to algebra 2. how do we make it count (whether or not he gets into TJ)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

It's a lot less toxic now that they stopped rewarding cheaters with admission.

Studying is not cheating.
Test prep is not cheating.
Only cheating is cheating.

Some people think that anyone that tries harder than them is cheating.
Those people are setting their kids up for failure.

I’ll agree that cheating isn’t the right word for test prep nor for the multi year planning that some families were doing of their kids’ activities and outside math classes with an intentional view on maximizing their odds of getting into TJ.

But the SB - and many in FCPS community - clearly did not think that was the intended atmosphere that was desired re: admissions. I agree. I don’t think that “failure” to devote extensive non-school hours to “studying” non-school material should put a kid at a disadvantage for admissions to TJ if they are otherwise in advanced math and doing great there.

I’m in favor of using math SOLs and giving preference to kids for being in at least Geometry in 8th as that is a path accessible to all kids in the county if they have the math aptitude for it. I would not give bonus points for doing Alg 2 because it’s not a path widely available in the county even for kids at AAP centers. On top of that I would let each normal MS pick 3 kids and each AAP center pick 4-5 kids that are true standouts and nominate them strongly to try to ensure the true outlier kids (vs just those that studied non-school stuff a lot) are captured.

I get that everyone wants the amount of effort THEIR kids put in to be the optimal amount of effort but that is not how competition works.

The kid that works more has an advantage over the kid that works less.

The purpose of the governor's schools is about advanced content. I generally agree that there is no need to provide an preference for kids that are taking algebra 2 because that really does encourage unnecessary and sometimes harmful acceleration.

hahahhahjahahjahahajaha

There is no limit to how much effort you put into math without taking algebra 2 in 8th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

Equating spending $600 on test prep with "wealthy" is wild.

The notion that cheating is any worse at TJ than any other school is dubious.
The notion that cheating is any better now than 5 years ago is laughable.

Was cheating worse at TJ than other area high schools? I don't know but it's certainly plausible - cheating is rampant at high pressure schools and TJ was the highest pressure school. It is lower pressure now. Is cheating lower now? It's plausible.

I wouldn't say that equating $600 on test prep is wild, but I would agree that test prep to get into TJ starting in grade school and/or at Sunday School is wild.

True, but many spent more like $20k on elite prep where their children were spoon fed actual test questions from a question bank that was compiled in violation of an NDA.

The stupid part there is the NDA. Education doesn't care about NDA

Also nobody is spending $20K to prep for the TJ test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

Equating spending $600 on test prep with "wealthy" is wild.

The notion that cheating is any worse at TJ than any other school is dubious.
The notion that cheating is any better now than 5 years ago is laughable.

Was cheating worse at TJ than other area high schools? I don't know but it's certainly plausible - cheating is rampant at high pressure schools and TJ was the highest pressure school. It is lower pressure now. Is cheating lower now? It's plausible.

I wouldn't say that equating $600 on test prep is wild, but I would agree that test prep to get into TJ starting in grade school and/or at Sunday School is wild.

True, but many spent more like $20k on elite prep where their children were spoon fed actual test questions from a question bank that was compiled in violation of an NDA.

20k or 200k? Students trust prep effort, admissions want students who put in that prep effort, whether sports or academics. Notice the number of college admits on sports scholarships, especially the historically disadvantaged. By saying prep is bad, you are disingenuously discouraging the URMs from prepping to succeed at TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

Equating spending $600 on test prep with "wealthy" is wild.

The notion that cheating is any worse at TJ than any other school is dubious.
The notion that cheating is any better now than 5 years ago is laughable.

Was cheating worse at TJ than other area high schools? I don't know but it's certainly plausible - cheating is rampant at high pressure schools and TJ was the highest pressure school. It is lower pressure now. Is cheating lower now? It's plausible.

I wouldn't say that equating $600 on test prep is wild, but I would agree that test prep to get into TJ starting in grade school and/or at Sunday School is wild.

True, but many spent more like $20k on elite prep where their children were spoon fed actual test questions from a question bank that was compiled in violation of an NDA.

The stupid part there is the NDA. Education doesn't care about NDA

I know, and even if you're just memorizing the test answers, you're still learning!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

Equating spending $600 on test prep with "wealthy" is wild.

The notion that cheating is any worse at TJ than any other school is dubious.
The notion that cheating is any better now than 5 years ago is laughable.

Was cheating worse at TJ than other area high schools? I don't know but it's certainly plausible - cheating is rampant at high pressure schools and TJ was the highest pressure school. It is lower pressure now. Is cheating lower now? It's plausible.

I wouldn't say that equating $600 on test prep is wild, but I would agree that test prep to get into TJ starting in grade school and/or at Sunday School is wild.

True, but many spent more like $20k on elite prep where their children were spoon fed actual test questions from a question bank that was compiled in violation of an NDA.

20k or 200k? Students trust prep effort, admissions want students who put in that prep effort, whether sports or academics. Notice the number of college admits on sports scholarships, especially the historically disadvantaged. By saying prep is bad, you are disingenuously discouraging the URMs from prepping to succeed at TJ.

I don't think prep is bad at all. In fact, I'm all for it, but I don't think it should be the deciding factor for publicly-funded programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

Equating spending $600 on test prep with "wealthy" is wild.

The notion that cheating is any worse at TJ than any other school is dubious.
The notion that cheating is any better now than 5 years ago is laughable.

Was cheating worse at TJ than other area high schools? I don't know but it's certainly plausible - cheating is rampant at high pressure schools and TJ was the highest pressure school. It is lower pressure now. Is cheating lower now? It's plausible.

I wouldn't say that equating $600 on test prep is wild, but I would agree that test prep to get into TJ starting in grade school and/or at Sunday School is wild.

True, but many spent more like $20k on elite prep where their children were spoon fed actual test questions from a question bank that was compiled in violation of an NDA.

20k or 200k? Students trust prep effort, admissions want students who put in that prep effort, whether sports or academics. Notice the number of college admits on sports scholarships, especially the historically disadvantaged. By saying prep is bad, you are disingenuously discouraging the URMs from prepping to succeed at TJ.

I don't think prep is bad at all. In fact, I'm all for it, but I don't think it should be the deciding factor for publicly-funded programs.

High school sports are publicly funded programs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

Equating spending $600 on test prep with "wealthy" is wild.

The notion that cheating is any worse at TJ than any other school is dubious.
The notion that cheating is any better now than 5 years ago is laughable.

Was cheating worse at TJ than other area high schools? I don't know but it's certainly plausible - cheating is rampant at high pressure schools and TJ was the highest pressure school. It is lower pressure now. Is cheating lower now? It's plausible.

I wouldn't say that equating $600 on test prep is wild, but I would agree that test prep to get into TJ starting in grade school and/or at Sunday School is wild.

True, but many spent more like $20k on elite prep where their children were spoon fed actual test questions from a question bank that was compiled in violation of an NDA.

20k or 200k? Students trust prep effort, admissions want students who put in that prep effort, whether sports or academics. Notice the number of college admits on sports scholarships, especially the historically disadvantaged. By saying prep is bad, you are disingenuously discouraging the URMs from prepping to succeed at TJ.

I don't think prep is bad at all. In fact, I'm all for it, but I don't think it should be the deciding factor for publicly-funded programs.

High school sports are publicly funded programs

WTF does sports have to do with academic programs? Oh wait…we know why you bring it up.

Public schools should offer multi-level options (8th/freshman, JV, Varsity) for popular sports (and offer a few no-cut sports per season). There should be a path to varsity even for kids who didn’t start playing in K.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

Equating spending $600 on test prep with "wealthy" is wild.

The notion that cheating is any worse at TJ than any other school is dubious.
The notion that cheating is any better now than 5 years ago is laughable.

Was cheating worse at TJ than other area high schools? I don't know but it's certainly plausible - cheating is rampant at high pressure schools and TJ was the highest pressure school. It is lower pressure now. Is cheating lower now? It's plausible.

I wouldn't say that equating $600 on test prep is wild, but I would agree that test prep to get into TJ starting in grade school and/or at Sunday School is wild.

True, but many spent more like $20k on elite prep where their children were spoon fed actual test questions from a question bank that was compiled in violation of an NDA.

20k or 200k? Students trust prep effort, admissions want students who put in that prep effort, whether sports or academics. Notice the number of college admits on sports scholarships, especially the historically disadvantaged. By saying prep is bad, you are disingenuously discouraging the URMs from prepping to succeed at TJ.

I don't think prep is bad at all. In fact, I'm all for it, but I don't think it should be the deciding factor for publicly-funded programs.

High school sports are publicly funded programs

WTF does sports have to do with academic programs? Oh wait…we know why you bring it up.

Public schools should offer multi-level options (8th/freshman, JV, Varsity) for popular sports (and offer a few no-cut sports per season). There should be a path to varsity even for kids who didn’t start playing in K.

But there isn't.

The best players on the basketball team almost invariably have travel experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

Equating spending $600 on test prep with "wealthy" is wild.

The notion that cheating is any worse at TJ than any other school is dubious.
The notion that cheating is any better now than 5 years ago is laughable.

Was cheating worse at TJ than other area high schools? I don't know but it's certainly plausible - cheating is rampant at high pressure schools and TJ was the highest pressure school. It is lower pressure now. Is cheating lower now? It's plausible.

I wouldn't say that equating $600 on test prep is wild, but I would agree that test prep to get into TJ starting in grade school and/or at Sunday School is wild.

True, but many spent more like $20k on elite prep where their children were spoon fed actual test questions from a question bank that was compiled in violation of an NDA.

20k or 200k? Students trust prep effort, admissions want students who put in that prep effort, whether sports or academics. Notice the number of college admits on sports scholarships, especially the historically disadvantaged. By saying prep is bad, you are disingenuously discouraging the URMs from prepping to succeed at TJ.

I don't think prep is bad at all. In fact, I'm all for it, but I don't think it should be the deciding factor for publicly-funded programs.

High school sports are publicly funded programs

WTF does sports have to do with academic programs? Oh wait…we know why you bring it up.

Public schools should offer multi-level options (8th/freshman, JV, Varsity) for popular sports (and offer a few no-cut sports per season). There should be a path to varsity even for kids who didn’t start playing in K.

But there isn't.

The best players on the basketball team almost invariably have travel experience.

But the path should be there for athletic kids who didn’t start in K. It’s high school, time for development and growth.

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Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

Equating spending $600 on test prep with "wealthy" is wild.

The notion that cheating is any worse at TJ than any other school is dubious.
The notion that cheating is any better now than 5 years ago is laughable.

Was cheating worse at TJ than other area high schools? I don't know but it's certainly plausible - cheating is rampant at high pressure schools and TJ was the highest pressure school. It is lower pressure now. Is cheating lower now? It's plausible.

I wouldn't say that equating $600 on test prep is wild, but I would agree that test prep to get into TJ starting in grade school and/or at Sunday School is wild.

True, but many spent more like $20k on elite prep where their children were spoon fed actual test questions from a question bank that was compiled in violation of an NDA.

20k or 200k? Students trust prep effort, admissions want students who put in that prep effort, whether sports or academics. Notice the number of college admits on sports scholarships, especially the historically disadvantaged. By saying prep is bad, you are disingenuously discouraging the URMs from prepping to succeed at TJ.

I don't think prep is bad at all. In fact, I'm all for it, but I don't think it should be the deciding factor for publicly-funded programs.

High school sports are publicly funded programs

WTF does sports have to do with academic programs? Oh wait…we know why you bring it up.

Public schools should offer multi-level options (8th/freshman, JV, Varsity) for popular sports (and offer a few no-cut sports per season). There should be a path to varsity even for kids who didn’t start playing in K.

But there isn't.

The best players on the basketball team almost invariably have travel experience.

But the path should be there for athletic kids who didn’t start in K. It’s high school, time for development and growth.

These sports anecdotes are irrelevant. Personally, I don't think my taxes should even pay for sports.