Who holds the power in the marriage dating market?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ultimately, it's a scarcity issue. For whatever reason, there are fewer and fewer marriageable men. For every reasonably tall, fit, kind, funny, well-educated, responsible, relationship-oriented man there are going to be forty women that really want to meet him. There are lots of very attractive women. But there are very few available men who have the attributes that most women care about. So the power is with those men, particularly as people get older.

I think women are more socialized now to look for marriage than men are.

[Anonymous]

In any market, if there is someone who wants something more than someone else, the person who cares more has less power.

[Anonymous]

When I was in my 20s I could basically get any man to date me. But once in a relationship, they were all pretty focused on their career goals and couldn't think of settling down in a few years, even talking about it. I would've had to be a "waity Katie" type until they were ready. Some of my exboyfriends settled down in their 30s and some never did settle down or have kids at all. I don't think men want marriage or family as much as women.

I ended up settling with someone at 27 and knew I was settling but I was so over the wishy-washy noncommittal men that I missed a lot of red flags in regards to personality. I suppose I was what I would now call "love bombed." At the time I thought, oh this is what it's like to be pursued, to not have to question commitment. But he ended up an extremely controlling husband.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:As a late thirties woman who has observed the dating and marriage market for well...15+ years since I entered it, this is an interesting topic for me.

As women we are told that we have the power in that any man would be willing to sleep with us. I would agree that being a youngish and average looking woman means that it is exceptionally easy to find a man to date and sleep with.

However, getting commitment from men, is a whole other matter. As a marriage minded twentysomething, it was very difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space.

The men were happy to hook up and date casually but almost no one had marriage in mind. My beautiful smart twentysomething girlfriends and I kept dating and getting dumped from one guy to the next.

In our thirties, the dating pool gets even more scary as now there is a shortage of men as those interested in marriage suddenly start proposing to the girl they are dating and walking down the aisle. The shift is swift and confusing. In every instance, the man who proposes has a high paying job or acquired one within the past two years of proposing. They certainly did NOT date the pretty girls in their twenties with the intention to marry...but instead...dated with the intention to marry in a very short window of time in their early twenties when they started to make money! Whoever they happened to be dating at that point...got the ring! It was like a game of musical chairs!

So you see...it appears that in the dating and marriage market...it is the men who are the choosers and the gatekeepers. They decide when to propose and to whom. A woman's future as a wife and a mother depends on whether a man finds her worthy to be his bride!

Wouldn't you try harder to meet the guys working at Capital One or Carlyle or BigLaw associates or Defense companies or Danaher or Marriott HQ or any of the other companies that pay real $$$s?

Because those guys have horrible schedules and tons of travel. It's not appealing.

Personally I would go for a nice GS-11/13 with promotion potential.

You don't sound like OP however.

I'm not at all like OP. Here are my key points.

1) Get your head around the logistsics being a single mother by choice, that way you won't think a man is necessary. Did that in college. The lack of desperation is really important here.

2) Date to marry. If anyone's not a good match, no matter how nice he is, bid him farewell. It's better to be single. And don't conceal this-- the goal is to run off anyone who isn't also dating to marry. I don't know why OP says it's difficult to come across any twentysomething or thirtysomething men who wanted to marry and have children. They might not want it right that moment, but there are plenty who do want it in their mid-thirties.

3) Don't date people who have non-family-friendly jobs. This means BigLaw partner track, consulting, anything really secretive, anything with terrible hours or too much travel or that doesn't have a suitable earnings trajectory. Figure out who's on track for a job that pays well enough and also allows time for a family, and date those guys.

4) Be marriage material. Don't act or dress tacky, don't get drunk, have a good career of your own and save money, pursue a MA or MBA or JD or whatever. Keep your eye on the long term. Don't have your life on hold-- go ahead and buy a condo if you like. This will be appealing to them!

What's a real-world example of this job (I guess understanding everyone has their own definition fo a job that "pays well enough")?

3 is a way to get non-Alist guys -- I don't mean type A -- I mean smart, ambitious guys -- they will go for the jobs you do not like. The guys that are left -- what you call the "well enough" guys are a combo of not smart, not serious, have issues that women on DCUM talk about all the time, who in 20 years will never make enough for you. The guys you do not like are the ones that women should target.

Oh please. I'm very happily married to someone who would never want one of those jobs, is plenty smart and serious, makes more than enough money, and is a great and present father. I would be miserable as a BigLaw wife. Ugh.

Why do you think you would be miserable as a BigLaw wife? Just curious - as I am one. Never been miserable. I would be miserable with what I see as the description of Biglaw life that was just not DH's experience.

Because I was a BigLaw associate in 2008 and saw how miserable everyone was and the losses the partners took. Because I really like my kids to have a father who is present and available (not saying yours isn't, it's just not the norm-- or maybe we define those things differently). Because I don't like having to go to events. Because I'm more attracted to guys who are trying to make a difference in the world, as long as they're sensible about it, and I don't really feel the need for that level of money in general.

I was a Biglaw partner in 2008 -- what losses are you talking about? 2008 was a good year -- things happened too late to make a bad year and 2009 was a blow out year because the second half was so great -- what losses did the partners suffer? My DW goes to no events and never has -- I have a lot of time for the kids -- in fact more time in a lot of key ways than my DW -- but I have learned that my experience may not be like others. I never was an associate - clerkships right to Fed with promotions and high impact cases and then to partner.

You must have been a bankruptcy partner, lol!

No. Litigation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Most did not make enough income to make supporting a wife and children a feasible option, especially in DC when many of my peers were in the policy, non profit or government space."

My wife and I, both government employees, have somehow managed to keep our children housed, clothed, fed, and educated.

+1 this OP lives in DC and thinks she's too good to date a fed? No wonder she's single.

Also nothing in that post seemed the tiniest bit surprising or original to me.

- 2 fed family who were both in biglaw when we met!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ultimately, it's a scarcity issue. For whatever reason, there are fewer and fewer marriageable men. For every reasonably tall, fit, kind, funny, well-educated, responsible, relationship-oriented man there are going to be forty women that really want to meet him. There are lots of very attractive women. But there are very few available men who have the attributes that most women care about. So the power is with those men, particularly as people get older.

To me this just reads like a lot of women think they are too good for a lot of men. I don't mean complete losers but look at "tall" as a requirement on your list. Look at OP saying guys in policy or government don't earn enough. Some women are not bringing anything special or unique to the table but expect the world's greatest catch. Those women stay single. Others are reasonable and match with peers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When I was in my 20s I could basically get any man to date me. But once in a relationship, they were all pretty focused on their career goals and couldn't think of settling down in a few years, even talking about it. I would've had to be a "waity Katie" type until they were ready. Some of my exboyfriends settled down in their 30s and some never did settle down or have kids at all. I don't think men want marriage or family as much as women.

I ended up settling with someone at 27 and knew I was settling but I was so over the wishy-washy noncommittal men that I missed a lot of red flags in regards to personality. I suppose I was what I would now call "love bombed." At the time I thought, oh this is what it's like to be pursued, to not have to question commitment. But he ended up an extremely controlling husband.

This is how a lot of women end up single in their 30s. Waiting out men getting their career started or in school and then it doesn’t work out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was in my 20s I could basically get any man to date me. But once in a relationship, they were all pretty focused on their career goals and couldn't think of settling down in a few years, even talking about it. I would've had to be a "waity Katie" type until they were ready. Some of my exboyfriends settled down in their 30s and some never did settle down or have kids at all. I don't think men want marriage or family as much as women.

I ended up settling with someone at 27 and knew I was settling but I was so over the wishy-washy noncommittal men that I missed a lot of red flags in regards to personality. I suppose I was what I would now call "love bombed." At the time I thought, oh this is what it's like to be pursued, to not have to question commitment. But he ended up an extremely controlling husband.

This is how a lot of women end up single in their 30s. Waiting out men getting their career started or in school and then it doesn’t work out.

This forum is full of stories about men with “potential” who turned out to be duds. Many get laid off and are in no hurry to find work—but aren’t interested in the dreary work of caring for young children either.

That’s why women wait.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ultimately, it's a scarcity issue. For whatever reason, there are fewer and fewer marriageable men. For every reasonably tall, fit, kind, funny, well-educated, responsible, relationship-oriented man there are going to be forty women that really want to meet him. There are lots of very attractive women. But there are very few available men who have the attributes that most women care about. So the power is with those men, particularly as people get older.

Why do so many women believe this? There are very few women who are a "match" for the type of man you described based on the things men value.

[Anonymous]

I am a 30-year-old male who went to Pitt to study Information Systems with a minor in music, and played a D1 sport there, and worked at Nvidia for the past five years. It seems like I have so many women to choose from the dating pool, especially from 30+ women. YMMV.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a 30-year-old male who went to Pitt to study Information Systems with a minor in music, and played a D1 sport there, and worked at Nvidia for the past five years. It seems like I have so many women to choose from the dating pool, especially from 30+ women. YMMV.

I think a lot of attractive and well paid men got easy access to basically practicing polyamory on dating apps. If they enjoy it, they can keep doing it well into mid 50s. I am a woman in my mid 40s and I see a new aged “apps generation” of late 50s men.
What’s dangerous is that closer to 60 they do want to find a life partner but developmentally they are kids relative me. I’ve lived a life, grew up a child etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was in my 20s I could basically get any man to date me. But once in a relationship, they were all pretty focused on their career goals and couldn't think of settling down in a few years, even talking about it. I would've had to be a "waity Katie" type until they were ready. Some of my exboyfriends settled down in their 30s and some never did settle down or have kids at all. I don't think men want marriage or family as much as women.

I ended up settling with someone at 27 and knew I was settling but I was so over the wishy-washy noncommittal men that I missed a lot of red flags in regards to personality. I suppose I was what I would now call "love bombed." At the time I thought, oh this is what it's like to be pursued, to not have to question commitment. But he ended up an extremely controlling husband.

This is how a lot of women end up single in their 30s. Waiting out men getting their career started or in school and then it doesn’t work out.

This forum is full of stories about men with “potential” who turned out to be duds. Many get laid off and are in no hurry to find work—but aren’t interested in the dreary work of caring for young children either.

That’s why women wait.

Yes, but if you wait, those men have a much larger dating pool than they did when you first met them. In our early 40s, my husband is a "DCUM catch" - tall, good looking, high earner but not a workaholic, involved in family life - but he wasn't yet all of those things when we met 20 years ago. He was a broke student like I was. I like to think we'd have still ended up together if we'd met 10 years later (I think I'm a catch, too!) but who knows... his dating pool at 30-35 was basically everyone which was not the case when we met.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was in my 20s I could basically get any man to date me. But once in a relationship, they were all pretty focused on their career goals and couldn't think of settling down in a few years, even talking about it. I would've had to be a "waity Katie" type until they were ready. Some of my exboyfriends settled down in their 30s and some never did settle down or have kids at all. I don't think men want marriage or family as much as women.

I ended up settling with someone at 27 and knew I was settling but I was so over the wishy-washy noncommittal men that I missed a lot of red flags in regards to personality. I suppose I was what I would now call "love bombed." At the time I thought, oh this is what it's like to be pursued, to not have to question commitment. But he ended up an extremely controlling husband.

This is how a lot of women end up single in their 30s. Waiting out men getting their career started or in school and then it doesn’t work out.

This forum is full of stories about men with “potential” who turned out to be duds. Many get laid off and are in no hurry to find work—but aren’t interested in the dreary work of caring for young children either.

That’s why women wait.

Yes, but if you wait, those men have a much larger dating pool than they did when you first met them. In our early 40s, my husband is a "DCUM catch" - tall, good looking, high earner but not a workaholic, involved in family life - but he wasn't yet all of those things when we met 20 years ago. He was a broke student like I was. I like to think we'd have still ended up together if we'd met 10 years later (I think I'm a catch, too!) but who knows... his dating pool at 30-35 was basically everyone which was not the case when we met.

I don’t think most women are “waiting” like people say. Life happens and some women just miss the college relationship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was in my 20s I could basically get any man to date me. But once in a relationship, they were all pretty focused on their career goals and couldn't think of settling down in a few years, even talking about it. I would've had to be a "waity Katie" type until they were ready. Some of my exboyfriends settled down in their 30s and some never did settle down or have kids at all. I don't think men want marriage or family as much as women.

I ended up settling with someone at 27 and knew I was settling but I was so over the wishy-washy noncommittal men that I missed a lot of red flags in regards to personality. I suppose I was what I would now call "love bombed." At the time I thought, oh this is what it's like to be pursued, to not have to question commitment. But he ended up an extremely controlling husband.

This is how a lot of women end up single in their 30s. Waiting out men getting their career started or in school and then it doesn’t work out.

This forum is full of stories about men with “potential” who turned out to be duds. Many get laid off and are in no hurry to find work—but aren’t interested in the dreary work of caring for young children either.

That’s why women wait.

Yes, but if you wait, those men have a much larger dating pool than they did when you first met them. In our early 40s, my husband is a "DCUM catch" - tall, good looking, high earner but not a workaholic, involved in family life - but he wasn't yet all of those things when we met 20 years ago. He was a broke student like I was. I like to think we'd have still ended up together if we'd met 10 years later (I think I'm a catch, too!) but who knows... his dating pool at 30-35 was basically everyone which was not the case when we met.

I had a long term marriage out of a university. It ended in divorce in our mid 50s when he had a midlife crisis. A lot of stories like that. There is nothing particular smart or special about a woman who marries early: she was just at a right place and right time with the right guy. But life changes and nothing is guaranteed, particular now that men live longer they want to live it to the fullest

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Women can screen their dates to determine whether they are marriage-minded and ready to commit within their timeframe. You can typically make an educated guess within the first three dates.

Yes don't proceed if they reject marriage. Also, women who stay too long in a relationship when the man won't commit. Many make that mistake.