If most careers require grad school does where you get your 4 year degree really matter?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Other than Ivy schools, why does it matter what 4 year you attend if most people need a graduate degree?

Also, if you don't go to grad school what benefit does a higher ranked college get you? Really curious because I feel like I am missing something?

If you want to go to a top medical specialty/academic medicine, then yes. The top residencies are biased towards the top medical schools which are biased towards the top universities

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

There's a lot to be said for being the big fish in a small pond. I ended up at a third rate undergrad for financial reasons and had no problem getting into a top grad school and top law school. Leaving undergrad I had tons of awards, glowing recommendations, and perfect grades. I don't know that my application would have been as stellar from a more competitive school.

How many other kids from your undergrad were at your top law school with you? How many of your law school classmates graduated from the undergrad of your law school?

Congrats to PP for threading the needle and getting into top law school the harder way. We have a very close relative at Yale law. They went to a different ivy for undergraduate. Over half of the YL entering class each year is from the same 20 or so elite undergrads. Most of the rest are from T25-40 types/6-15 ranked LACs. There are almost no students from colleges below the top100 and these students are either hooked demographics or truly genius.

Yale lists the 86 undergrad institutions that are represented at Yale Law School on their website. You'll see lots of non-prestigious schools listed, from Northern Arizona University to Florida International University to Southern Utah University.

https://law.yale.edu/admissions/profiles-statistics

Yale used to list the number of Yale law students attending by their undergrad school. The top 20 schools comprised 65% of the entire law school. Yale undergrad was 20% of Yale law school.

Then there was one kid from all the remaining schools...though they listed more than 86 in total.

ear after year, Yale Law School is ranked #1 in the US. (Harvard Law & Stanford Law School complete the top 3, followed by Chicago, Columbia, & NYU as the top 6 law schools in the USA.)

In 2019 (last year they tracked these stats..600 law students in total)), the undergraduate schools with the highest number of alumni then at Yale Law School were:

Yale--90 students enrolled in YLS
Harvard--59
Columbia--34
Princeton--31

Stanford--22
Dartmouth--21
Cornell--19
U Chicago--18
Brown--17
U Penn-16

UC-Berkeley--13
Georgetown--13
Duke--10

Northwestern--8
U Michigan--8
USC--8
U Virginia--7
Johns Hopkins--7

Among LACs:

Amherst--6
Swarthmore--6
Bowdoin--5
Barnard--4
Pomona--4
Wellesley--4
Williams--4

Looks like a good Top 25 list for humanities majors planning on attending law school.

Is it harder to be in the top 10 applicants from @ particular year from Duke or the top applicant from Northern Arizona University?

Yale does not always accept a student from NAU; you need to be the best they've seen in several years. That's harder than being among the top 10 Yale Law applicants at Duke

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Other than Ivy schools, why does it matter what 4 year you attend if most people need a graduate degree?

Also, if you don't go to grad school what benefit does a higher ranked college get you? Really curious because I feel like I am missing something?

1. Most people don’t need a graduate degree.

2. The Ivy League is not the be all and end all of life. My education at Georgetown SFS was a much better preparation for my career than I would’ve gotten majoring in Government at any Ivy League school except for perhaps Harvard, which does not have the opportunities SFS students get in DC.

There are zero Ivy League schools in the top 9 undergrad engineering programs. Cornell comes in at 10. So if I want the best undergrad engineering, I’m not going to Harvard.

Thank you explaining the benefits of attending a top school.

As for major-specific rankings, you should take them with a grain of salt. Georgetown is ranked #34 for political science, below Ohio State at #17.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

This. The undergraduate reputation/prestige correlates to the grad schools where the students go.
Example: the top 5 grad schools from NC state, UGA —good but not top flagships—are similar level schools.
The top 5 grad schools coming out of Duke? MIT, Duke, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. Ivies are similar: the top 5 is almost always including the ivy itself, MIT, Harvard, Stanford and another top school.
PhDs which are fully paid /funded including stipends of $45k or so are about half of grad programs coming out of top schools, whereas at non elite /nonflagships of the ones not going to professional school, less than 10% go to phD, the rest are masters. Most masters, outside of elite programs at ivies or others, are not funded at all. Guess who gets into the funded masters.
Careers after phD or masters is highly dependent on the prestiges of program. Getting into the most prestigious grad programs heavily correlates with attending a top20 private or a top15 LAC or a top15Public. Those 50 schools boost . The ivy/plus group of 12 schools give the biggest boost.
Undergrad matters.

All of this is just a correlation of smart, motivated students with academic success. Nothing in here is causal, especially not the undergraduate university attended.

DP
in part it is just that. however being in an environment where average middle of the pack kids go to top phDs, MD, JD is a much more motivating environment of peers than being in a school where very few are aiming for this type of future, and the "average" kid is going to be a social worker or teacher or nurse. My wife and I were motivated by the peers around us at our ivy/plus; we made lifelong friends and are not the only ones who met mates there. We went off to top JD and MD programs as did most of our peers. Others run national nonprofits now, or are professors, or have started companies. We sent and are sending our kids to similar colleges for that reason. They thrive on the challenge of that type of peer group.

I think you are ignoring the boost that comes with being a big fish in a small pond. I was at a no name school (despite getting into a T10 but needing a full ride to afford college) and had weekly mentoring sessions with the University President and Provost. I was mentored by the Chair of the Board of Trustees. I had all the support of the Honors Program director, who could open any door on campus to me with a phone call. Lots and lots of support.

Meanwhile as a PhD graduate student at a T10 I saw undergrads who were fighting to get a spot in the lab they wanted, getting zero attention from the PI if they did get a spot, and struggling with trying to stand out academically from a really talented crowd.

An ambitious kid can succeed from wherever they attend, but it isn't necessarily all sunshine and roses if you go to a T10, nor hopeless if you're at a regional Tier 4.

This is not a benefit I've heard of coming from any university's full ride scholarship. It was also a gamble - you might not have gotten those opportunities, your Honors Program director might not have been able to open doors for you, your honors program might have instead been a tiresome checklist of requirements, as is typically the case. Did you have any strategy to ensure you would get these opportunities or did your program explicitly advise these opportunities? If not, you might as well be a lottery winner telling others to pay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

This. The undergraduate reputation/prestige correlates to the grad schools where the students go.
Example: the top 5 grad schools from NC state, UGA —good but not top flagships—are similar level schools.
The top 5 grad schools coming out of Duke? MIT, Duke, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. Ivies are similar: the top 5 is almost always including the ivy itself, MIT, Harvard, Stanford and another top school.
PhDs which are fully paid /funded including stipends of $45k or so are about half of grad programs coming out of top schools, whereas at non elite /nonflagships of the ones not going to professional school, less than 10% go to phD, the rest are masters. Most masters, outside of elite programs at ivies or others, are not funded at all. Guess who gets into the funded masters.
Careers after phD or masters is highly dependent on the prestiges of program. Getting into the most prestigious grad programs heavily correlates with attending a top20 private or a top15 LAC or a top15Public. Those 50 schools boost . The ivy/plus group of 12 schools give the biggest boost.
Undergrad matters.

All of this is just a correlation of smart, motivated students with academic success. Nothing in here is causal, especially not the undergraduate university attended.

DP
in part it is just that. however being in an environment where average middle of the pack kids go to top phDs, MD, JD is a much more motivating environment of peers than being in a school where very few are aiming for this type of future, and the "average" kid is going to be a social worker or teacher or nurse. My wife and I were motivated by the peers around us at our ivy/plus; we made lifelong friends and are not the only ones who met mates there. We went off to top JD and MD programs as did most of our peers. Others run national nonprofits now, or are professors, or have started companies. We sent and are sending our kids to similar colleges for that reason. They thrive on the challenge of that type of peer group.

I think you are ignoring the boost that comes with being a big fish in a small pond. I was at a no name school (despite getting into a T10 but needing a full ride to afford college) and had weekly mentoring sessions with the University President and Provost. I was mentored by the Chair of the Board of Trustees. I had all the support of the Honors Program director, who could open any door on campus to me with a phone call. Lots and lots of support.

Meanwhile as a PhD graduate student at a T10 I saw undergrads who were fighting to get a spot in the lab they wanted, getting zero attention from the PI if they did get a spot, and struggling with trying to stand out academically from a really talented crowd.

An ambitious kid can succeed from wherever they attend, but it isn't necessarily all sunshine and roses if you go to a T10, nor hopeless if you're at a regional Tier 4.

+1. If you are a strong, academically-inclined student at an average school there will be tons of unique opportunities available to you. We had weekly lunches with the dean of our college. One kid was on the Board of Trustees as the Student Trustee. The best professors there were incredibly available because they were thrilled to meet with the top students. And this was at a Big Ten school.

It’s so weird when people seem to think that if you aren’t at a T20, then you are automatically a nursing major in 500 person classes.

Why don't you share the name of the school and the program? It seems quite gatekeep-y to keep this secret. Everyone knows Ivies provide excellent development opportunities, but no one's going to know which T100s' honors programs are worth it and which aren't special until people share?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

This. The undergraduate reputation/prestige correlates to the grad schools where the students go.
Example: the top 5 grad schools from NC state, UGA —good but not top flagships—are similar level schools.
The top 5 grad schools coming out of Duke? MIT, Duke, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. Ivies are similar: the top 5 is almost always including the ivy itself, MIT, Harvard, Stanford and another top school.
PhDs which are fully paid /funded including stipends of $45k or so are about half of grad programs coming out of top schools, whereas at non elite /nonflagships of the ones not going to professional school, less than 10% go to phD, the rest are masters. Most masters, outside of elite programs at ivies or others, are not funded at all. Guess who gets into the funded masters.
Careers after phD or masters is highly dependent on the prestiges of program. Getting into the most prestigious grad programs heavily correlates with attending a top20 private or a top15 LAC or a top15Public. Those 50 schools boost . The ivy/plus group of 12 schools give the biggest boost.
Undergrad matters.

All of this is just a correlation of smart, motivated students with academic success. Nothing in here is causal, especially not the undergraduate university attended.

DP
in part it is just that. however being in an environment where average middle of the pack kids go to top phDs, MD, JD is a much more motivating environment of peers than being in a school where very few are aiming for this type of future, and the "average" kid is going to be a social worker or teacher or nurse. My wife and I were motivated by the peers around us at our ivy/plus; we made lifelong friends and are not the only ones who met mates there. We went off to top JD and MD programs as did most of our peers. Others run national nonprofits now, or are professors, or have started companies. We sent and are sending our kids to similar colleges for that reason. They thrive on the challenge of that type of peer group.

PP. Thinking that all of the things you mentioned don’t happen at schools across the top 100 is extremely out of touch with reality. “We are not the only ones who met our mates there.” “Others are professors or have started companies.” It sounds like you’ve been out of school for 50 years.

AVERAGE GPA students at schools ranked 60-100 do not go to med law or top phD schools. Pull up any of them and look at the most common careers, pull up the med and law school matriculation data--it rare from these schools, less than 10% of grads. Top14 LAW school is even more rare. T14 is easily accessible to average GPA(3.8) students from an ivy/T10.

We aren’t talking about average GPA students at schools ranked 60-100. We are talking about whether undergrad matters for grad school. The kind of kids who can get accepted to ivy+ are not average GPA students if they end up at 60-100, they will be top students there, surrounded by other top students in honors classes, Honors Colleges, etc. And they will get into the same grad schools because what matters is grades, test scores, recs. Even your 3.8 GPA average at Ivy example highlights this, as the average GPA at lower ranked schools is much lower. So you can be “average” at an Ivy but you can get into good schools in part because your grades are still high.

As I said earlier, all you are doing is positing a causal fallacy (cum hoc ergo propter hoc) because you see a correlation and have assumed causality, though there are obvious confounding factors (ivy+ kids are at ivy+ because they are good at the same things that also get one into grad school, like grades and test scores). It’s funny that you keep talking about how superior these schools and their education are yet you keep committing this extremely basic logical fallacy.

Maybe because you are a one-trick pony with the causation vs correlation argument.

Explain why if there are so many Honors kids at these schools why they still aren’t represented all that well at top grad programs. How does that make any sense?

For example if you believe DCUM there are tons of kids attending Alabama for free as NMSF kids coming from UMC families. So, why isn’t Alabama represented better at these top law / MD programs…again, these aren’t hard scrabble kids from rural Alabama but UMC DMV kids taking the free ride. In theory, they have the same notions about needing grad school.

Only because you keep committing the same elementary logical fallacy over and over and don’t seem to realize it. That’s not my fault.

These types of kids *are* well represented at top grad schools but they come from about 100 universities instead of a dozen or so Ivy+. It’s just a matter of dispersion. Quite simple, really.

And to be clear, I never said there were “so many honors kids” or “tons of kids” at these schools. You said that. It’s honors and associated programs, after all, so it’s selective. I just said the ones that are top are capable (and do) get into the same grad schools as equivalent kids at other schools. Because the causality runs from the metrics used to assess admissions to those schools (grades, scores, recs), not the name on the diploma, and many of the top students at lower ranked schools can and do get into better undergrads but choose the lower ranked school for a variety of reasons. And then end up at the same grad schools and in the same jobs.

There aren't even close to 100 different universities which give full rides to top students

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I worked many years in admissions at a T10 law school and a high GPA/LSAT from a state flagship type of school was not viewed as any less favorable than Ivy/Top private for undergrad. There was zero pressure on us to admit from certain schools. All the pressure was on reporting gpa/lsat percentiles.

They’re still going to get in this thread and tell you why you’re wrong

Why listen to people who work in admissions when you can listen to copium instead?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Other than Ivy schools, why does it matter what 4 year you attend if most people need a graduate degree?

Also, if you don't go to grad school what benefit does a higher ranked college get you? Really curious because I feel like I am missing something?

If you want to go to a top medical specialty/academic medicine, then yes. The top residencies are biased towards the top medical schools which are biased towards the top universities

Indeed they are. Students at top25 research med schools can go into any specialty they want, or primary care: all doors are open: these schools match residents to the top residency hospitals for each field every year and with ease. There is no tiering and they do not gate the students: even students at the bottom match to top surgical specialties. Not surprisingly, most of the top ones are affiliated with top schools. Below the top25 and down to about 50-60 is close, one can still match into any field but the chances of getting CHOP or Boston childrens for Pediatrics is much less likely. Below the top 100 (research) med schools, and for all of the non-research med schools, there are many fields that are essentially not possible: no dermatology, no neurosurgery, no interventional rads, and others. There is heavy gating to the point of some fields never having a student match into them in the history of the school. Almost everyone has to do primary care. Most med students do not know what they want to do until they see all of the specialties. These hospitals do not have transplant surgery, specialized oncologists, ophtho, neurosurgery….or all the pediatric subspecialties…medical students do not get exposure to all the fields and thus will not be able to match in a program that will lead to that career.

[Anonymous]

Law school admissions poster again. Our top feeder undergrad was in fact our own. Our second highest feeder was the other top school (a public) located geographically nearest to us. This was not our doing - this was self selection bias on the part of the applicants. Many people like where they are and want to stay nearby. I’m guessing this is true for students who choose New England/the south/west coast/etc for undergrad in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

This. The undergraduate reputation/prestige correlates to the grad schools where the students go.
Example: the top 5 grad schools from NC state, UGA —good but not top flagships—are similar level schools.
The top 5 grad schools coming out of Duke? MIT, Duke, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. Ivies are similar: the top 5 is almost always including the ivy itself, MIT, Harvard, Stanford and another top school.
PhDs which are fully paid /funded including stipends of $45k or so are about half of grad programs coming out of top schools, whereas at non elite /nonflagships of the ones not going to professional school, less than 10% go to phD, the rest are masters. Most masters, outside of elite programs at ivies or others, are not funded at all. Guess who gets into the funded masters.
Careers after phD or masters is highly dependent on the prestiges of program. Getting into the most prestigious grad programs heavily correlates with attending a top20 private or a top15 LAC or a top15Public. Those 50 schools boost . The ivy/plus group of 12 schools give the biggest boost.
Undergrad matters.

All of this is just a correlation of smart, motivated students with academic success. Nothing in here is causal, especially not the undergraduate university attended.

DP
in part it is just that. however being in an environment where average middle of the pack kids go to top phDs, MD, JD is a much more motivating environment of peers than being in a school where very few are aiming for this type of future, and the "average" kid is going to be a social worker or teacher or nurse. My wife and I were motivated by the peers around us at our ivy/plus; we made lifelong friends and are not the only ones who met mates there. We went off to top JD and MD programs as did most of our peers. Others run national nonprofits now, or are professors, or have started companies. We sent and are sending our kids to similar colleges for that reason. They thrive on the challenge of that type of peer group.

I think you are ignoring the boost that comes with being a big fish in a small pond. I was at a no name school (despite getting into a T10 but needing a full ride to afford college) and had weekly mentoring sessions with the University President and Provost. I was mentored by the Chair of the Board of Trustees. I had all the support of the Honors Program director, who could open any door on campus to me with a phone call. Lots and lots of support.

Meanwhile as a PhD graduate student at a T10 I saw undergrads who were fighting to get a spot in the lab they wanted, getting zero attention from the PI if they did get a spot, and struggling with trying to stand out academically from a really talented crowd.

An ambitious kid can succeed from wherever they attend, but it isn't necessarily all sunshine and roses if you go to a T10, nor hopeless if you're at a regional Tier 4.

+1. If you are a strong, academically-inclined student at an average school there will be tons of unique opportunities available to you. We had weekly lunches with the dean of our college. One kid was on the Board of Trustees as the Student Trustee. The best professors there were incredibly available because they were thrilled to meet with the top students. And this was at a Big Ten school.

It’s so weird when people seem to think that if you aren’t at a T20, then you are automatically a nursing major in 500 person classes.

Why don't you share the name of the school and the program? It seems quite gatekeep-y to keep this secret. Everyone knows Ivies provide excellent development opportunities, but no one's going to know which T100s' honors programs are worth it and which aren't special until people share?

DP here. 2 reasons not to share:

Gatekeeping is one, as you said, especially for those of us with kids still in the process.

The other reason is any school we say will immediately be dismissed and $hat on by you, so there is no point to name it anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

This. The undergraduate reputation/prestige correlates to the grad schools where the students go.
Example: the top 5 grad schools from NC state, UGA —good but not top flagships—are similar level schools.
The top 5 grad schools coming out of Duke? MIT, Duke, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. Ivies are similar: the top 5 is almost always including the ivy itself, MIT, Harvard, Stanford and another top school.
PhDs which are fully paid /funded including stipends of $45k or so are about half of grad programs coming out of top schools, whereas at non elite /nonflagships of the ones not going to professional school, less than 10% go to phD, the rest are masters. Most masters, outside of elite programs at ivies or others, are not funded at all. Guess who gets into the funded masters.
Careers after phD or masters is highly dependent on the prestiges of program. Getting into the most prestigious grad programs heavily correlates with attending a top20 private or a top15 LAC or a top15Public. Those 50 schools boost . The ivy/plus group of 12 schools give the biggest boost.
Undergrad matters.

All of this is just a correlation of smart, motivated students with academic success. Nothing in here is causal, especially not the undergraduate university attended.

DP
in part it is just that. however being in an environment where average middle of the pack kids go to top phDs, MD, JD is a much more motivating environment of peers than being in a school where very few are aiming for this type of future, and the "average" kid is going to be a social worker or teacher or nurse. My wife and I were motivated by the peers around us at our ivy/plus; we made lifelong friends and are not the only ones who met mates there. We went off to top JD and MD programs as did most of our peers. Others run national nonprofits now, or are professors, or have started companies. We sent and are sending our kids to similar colleges for that reason. They thrive on the challenge of that type of peer group.

I think you are ignoring the boost that comes with being a big fish in a small pond. I was at a no name school (despite getting into a T10 but needing a full ride to afford college) and had weekly mentoring sessions with the University President and Provost. I was mentored by the Chair of the Board of Trustees. I had all the support of the Honors Program director, who could open any door on campus to me with a phone call. Lots and lots of support.

Meanwhile as a PhD graduate student at a T10 I saw undergrads who were fighting to get a spot in the lab they wanted, getting zero attention from the PI if they did get a spot, and struggling with trying to stand out academically from a really talented crowd.

An ambitious kid can succeed from wherever they attend, but it isn't necessarily all sunshine and roses if you go to a T10, nor hopeless if you're at a regional Tier 4.

+1. If you are a strong, academically-inclined student at an average school there will be tons of unique opportunities available to you. We had weekly lunches with the dean of our college. One kid was on the Board of Trustees as the Student Trustee. The best professors there were incredibly available because they were thrilled to meet with the top students. And this was at a Big Ten school.

It’s so weird when people seem to think that if you aren’t at a T20, then you are automatically a nursing major in 500 person classes.

Why don't you share the name of the school and the program? It seems quite gatekeep-y to keep this secret. Everyone knows Ivies provide excellent development opportunities, but no one's going to know which T100s' honors programs are worth it and which aren't special until people share?

DP here. 2 reasons not to share:

Gatekeeping is one, as you said, especially for those of us with kids still in the process.

The other reason is any school we say will immediately be dismissed and $hat on by you, so there is no point to name it anyway.

I’m the person that question was directed at, and I have no problem saying. It was Indiana. Note that this thread has several different people making similar comments so I can’t speak for them.

But it doesn’t matter. These opportunities exist at any large, decent school. It shouldn’t come as a surprise. We all know great students with fantastic stats that don’t win the Ivy lottery, and they end up somewhere. They don’t magically become stupid when they do, and the schools don’t throw money at these kids just to forget about them once they walk through the doors. The schools have opportunities for them.

And though this forum is Ivy obsessed, lots of people live in parts of the country where they don’t want to go to school a thousand miles away, or they are full pay and can’t stomach 90k a year, and so they just go in-state or somewhere nearby. And those kids will get into the same grad schools, if that’s the route they want to go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^ all the same except for the outlay of cash during undergrad

Yes. I got so much financial aid from my Ivy it was cheaper than a state school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

This. The undergraduate reputation/prestige correlates to the grad schools where the students go.
Example: the top 5 grad schools from NC state, UGA —good but not top flagships—are similar level schools.
The top 5 grad schools coming out of Duke? MIT, Duke, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. Ivies are similar: the top 5 is almost always including the ivy itself, MIT, Harvard, Stanford and another top school.
PhDs which are fully paid /funded including stipends of $45k or so are about half of grad programs coming out of top schools, whereas at non elite /nonflagships of the ones not going to professional school, less than 10% go to phD, the rest are masters. Most masters, outside of elite programs at ivies or others, are not funded at all. Guess who gets into the funded masters.
Careers after phD or masters is highly dependent on the prestiges of program. Getting into the most prestigious grad programs heavily correlates with attending a top20 private or a top15 LAC or a top15Public. Those 50 schools boost . The ivy/plus group of 12 schools give the biggest boost.
Undergrad matters.

All of this is just a correlation of smart, motivated students with academic success. Nothing in here is causal, especially not the undergraduate university attended.

DP
in part it is just that. however being in an environment where average middle of the pack kids go to top phDs, MD, JD is a much more motivating environment of peers than being in a school where very few are aiming for this type of future, and the "average" kid is going to be a social worker or teacher or nurse. My wife and I were motivated by the peers around us at our ivy/plus; we made lifelong friends and are not the only ones who met mates there. We went off to top JD and MD programs as did most of our peers. Others run national nonprofits now, or are professors, or have started companies. We sent and are sending our kids to similar colleges for that reason. They thrive on the challenge of that type of peer group.

I think you are ignoring the boost that comes with being a big fish in a small pond. I was at a no name school (despite getting into a T10 but needing a full ride to afford college) and had weekly mentoring sessions with the University President and Provost. I was mentored by the Chair of the Board of Trustees. I had all the support of the Honors Program director, who could open any door on campus to me with a phone call. Lots and lots of support.

Meanwhile as a PhD graduate student at a T10 I saw undergrads who were fighting to get a spot in the lab they wanted, getting zero attention from the PI if they did get a spot, and struggling with trying to stand out academically from a really talented crowd.

An ambitious kid can succeed from wherever they attend, but it isn't necessarily all sunshine and roses if you go to a T10, nor hopeless if you're at a regional Tier 4.

+1. If you are a strong, academically-inclined student at an average school there will be tons of unique opportunities available to you. We had weekly lunches with the dean of our college. One kid was on the Board of Trustees as the Student Trustee. The best professors there were incredibly available because they were thrilled to meet with the top students. And this was at a Big Ten school.

It’s so weird when people seem to think that if you aren’t at a T20, then you are automatically a nursing major in 500 person classes.

Why don't you share the name of the school and the program? It seems quite gatekeep-y to keep this secret. Everyone knows Ivies provide excellent development opportunities, but no one's going to know which T100s' honors programs are worth it and which aren't special until people share?

DP here. 2 reasons not to share:

Gatekeeping is one, as you said, especially for those of us with kids still in the process.

The other reason is any school we say will immediately be dismissed and $hat on by you, so there is no point to name it anyway.

I’m the person that question was directed at, and I have no problem saying. It was Indiana. Note that this thread has several different people making similar comments so I can’t speak for them.

But it doesn’t matter. These opportunities exist at any large, decent school. It shouldn’t come as a surprise. We all know great students with fantastic stats that don’t win the Ivy lottery, and they end up somewhere. They don’t magically become stupid when they do, and the schools don’t throw money at these kids just to forget about them once they walk through the doors. The schools have opportunities for them.

And though this forum is Ivy obsessed, lots of people live in parts of the country where they don’t want to go to school a thousand miles away, or they are full pay and can’t stomach 90k a year, and so they just go in-state or somewhere nearby. And those kids will get into the same grad schools, if that’s the route they want to go.

UIUC or Bloomington? And no, I don't think most publics allow students to have weally lunches with the Dean.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I worked many years in admissions at a T10 law school and a high GPA/LSAT from a state flagship type of school was not viewed as any less favorable than Ivy/Top private for undergrad. There was zero pressure on us to admit from certain schools. All the pressure was on reporting gpa/lsat percentiles.

They’re still going to get in this thread and tell you why you’re wrong

Why listen to people who work in admissions when you can listen to copium instead?

“But but but my kid’s UG was ELITE! Pick us! Choose us! Love us!”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

There's a lot to be said for being the big fish in a small pond. I ended up at a third rate undergrad for financial reasons and had no problem getting into a top grad school and top law school. Leaving undergrad I had tons of awards, glowing recommendations, and perfect grades. I don't know that my application would have been as stellar from a more competitive school.

How many other kids from your undergrad were at your top law school with you? How many of your law school classmates graduated from the undergrad of your law school?

Congrats to PP for threading the needle and getting into top law school the harder way. We have a very close relative at Yale law. They went to a different ivy for undergraduate. Over half of the YL entering class each year is from the same 20 or so elite undergrads. Most of the rest are from T25-40 types/6-15 ranked LACs. There are almost no students from colleges below the top100 and these students are either hooked demographics or truly genius.

Yale lists the 86 undergrad institutions that are represented at Yale Law School on their website. You'll see lots of non-prestigious schools listed, from Northern Arizona University to Florida International University to Southern Utah University.

https://law.yale.edu/admissions/profiles-statistics

Yale used to list the number of Yale law students attending by their undergrad school. The top 20 schools comprised 65% of the entire law school. Yale undergrad was 20% of Yale law school.

Then there was one kid from all the remaining schools...though they listed more than 86 in total.

ear after year, Yale Law School is ranked #1 in the US. (Harvard Law & Stanford Law School complete the top 3, followed by Chicago, Columbia, & NYU as the top 6 law schools in the USA.)

In 2019 (last year they tracked these stats..600 law students in total)), the undergraduate schools with the highest number of alumni then at Yale Law School were:

Yale--90 students enrolled in YLS
Harvard--59
Columbia--34
Princeton--31

Stanford--22
Dartmouth--21
Cornell--19
U Chicago--18
Brown--17
U Penn-16

UC-Berkeley--13
Georgetown--13
Duke--10

Northwestern--8
U Michigan--8
USC--8
U Virginia--7
Johns Hopkins--7

Among LACs:

Amherst--6
Swarthmore--6
Bowdoin--5
Barnard--4
Pomona--4
Wellesley--4
Williams--4

Looks like a good Top 25 list for humanities majors planning on attending law school.

Is it harder to be in the top 10 applicants from @ particular year from Duke or the top applicant from Northern Arizona University?

Yale does not always accept a student from NAU; you need to be the best they've seen in several years. That's harder than being among the top 10 Yale Law applicants at Duke

THIS. And keep in mind Duke is getting 5-6 into Harvard, 5-10 each to the other top law schools--some have ED options --Yale does not get all of the top applicants. NAU and other non-flagships/lower ranked colleges have many years when zero students get into any top law schools.