Why did God create pediatric cancer?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Cold is the absence of heat. Darkness is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good.

God gave His creatures freedom. When He created angels and humans, they had the capacity to freely choose to love God and all that is good. Instead, Lucifer and other angels abused their freedom and tried to take God’s place in order to lead the whole world astray.

Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they cooperated with Satan’s evil plan.

Instead of destroying all evil people, God set up a plan. God himself decided to enter history as a human being in Jesus Christ. He never did anything that was evil. But he lived a truly good life. Yet, as God, he decided to absorb all the world’s evil into Himself. He let evil crush him on the cross.

In Genesis 3, a serpent tempts the woman:
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
— Genesis 3:4–5, KJV

The serpent told Eve that eating the fruit from the tree would make her and Adam as gods. Adam and Eve didn’t want knowledge: they wanted to be gods.


Their physical condition changed as a result of their eating the forbidden fruit. As God had promised, they became mortal. Now Adam and Eve could get sick and die. They had to leave the garden of Eden. That’s where the physical illness and death that humans now experience originated. God’s plan was not for us to experience illness and death.

If you don’t believe in God, you don’t believe any of that happened. You must have an alternative theory to why people get sick and die, and why humans are not immortal and get diseases and can die from accidents and injuries. Something else makes humans mortal and age and die.

Doesn't every living thing on earth do all of this? Any animal can get sick and die. Plants and bugs too. This isn't limited to humans, and unless you're going to tell me another story of the bumblebee-adam and bumblebee-eve I'm not quite sure what the point of this post is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The atheists have still not come forth with their view of suffering and how it makes it feel better. Only one person said something about science and her conclusion was that she wasnt sure life is worth it. So, that pretty much supports what other PP said about thinking atheists being depressed.

I posted this on page 3:

This kind of question is why I eventually went from considering seminary in my mid 20s to becoming an atheist by 30.

There is so much comfort in recognizing that everything in life is to some extent just a random expression of biology and physics.

There is no allegedly all knowing, all powerful and loving entity which allows profound suffering on a heartbreaking scale in this world. There is just life while we have it, and love if we can embrace it.

I have been overall a much more grounded person since becoming an atheist. I have suffered depression on and off as a result of childhood trauma and biological processes in my body, but not because I don't believe in a god. I'm in the best mental health of my life and not at all depressed now, and I don't believe in a god.

Also I should add that across my 50+ years of existence I've known far more religious that non religious people, and many of them suffered depression despite their religious faith. Religious faith doesn't cure biologically based depression.

I'd also like to add that in my younger years, people were discouraged from doing real therapy (only faith based) or taking medication to treat very treatable things like depression. Many people who were gay or trans were so depressed they killed themselves because their religion kept telling them they were wrong, and praying will help. So instead of getting actual help, they stay depressed, or end their lives to end the depression.

Clearly we know that isn't true now, and I believe it's not as stigmatized, but likely still looked down upon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The atheists have still not come forth with their view of suffering and how it makes it feel better. Only one person said something about science and her conclusion was that she wasnt sure life is worth it. So, that pretty much supports what other PP said about thinking atheists being depressed.

I posted this on page 3:

This kind of question is why I eventually went from considering seminary in my mid 20s to becoming an atheist by 30.

There is so much comfort in recognizing that everything in life is to some extent just a random expression of biology and physics.

There is no allegedly all knowing, all powerful and loving entity which allows profound suffering on a heartbreaking scale in this world. There is just life while we have it, and love if we can embrace it.

I have been overall a much more grounded person since becoming an atheist. I have suffered depression on and off as a result of childhood trauma and biological processes in my body, but not because I don't believe in a god. I'm in the best mental health of my life and not at all depressed now, and I don't believe in a god.

Also I should add that across my 50+ years of existence I've known far more religious that non religious people, and many of them suffered depression despite their religious faith. Religious faith doesn't cure biologically based depression.

That’s great, glad you are doing well.

God doesn’t promise anyone a perfect, disease free life filled with happiness and joy and good health. He originally planned that life for us, but Adam and Eve decided they wanted to be gods. So we lost that ability to live immortal and disease free lives of perfect health and happiness.


God has not promised skies always blue, flower-strewn pathways all our lives through; God has not promised sun without rain, joy without sorrow, peace without pain. But God has promised strength for the day, rest for the labor, light for the way, Grace for the trials, help from above, unfailing sympathy, undying love. -Annie Johnson Flint

God doesn’t say if we believe in Him we will live forever on earth without aging or becoming ill. Christians get the same diseases and accidents and heartbreaks as non-Christians. Humans grow old and eventually die. So it’s not like God promises us stuff to become Christian and boom our troubles are over.

God sent His son to redeem us. He loves us and wants us to be happy. But He also gave us free will to choose our lives. We choose how we live. We can choose to believe in God, or not. We can smoke crack or shop til we drop or become pediatric surgeons or invent microwaves or whatever we think is best for us. We were not created to be humaniod robots pre-programmed with a thought process and pre-formed opinions and an organic hard drive in our heads programmed by God.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The atheists have still not come forth with their view of suffering and how it makes it feel better. Only one person said something about science and her conclusion was that she wasnt sure life is worth it. So, that pretty much supports what other PP said about thinking atheists being depressed.

I posted this on page 3:

This kind of question is why I eventually went from considering seminary in my mid 20s to becoming an atheist by 30.

There is so much comfort in recognizing that everything in life is to some extent just a random expression of biology and physics.

There is no allegedly all knowing, all powerful and loving entity which allows profound suffering on a heartbreaking scale in this world. There is just life while we have it, and love if we can embrace it.

I have been overall a much more grounded person since becoming an atheist. I have suffered depression on and off as a result of childhood trauma and biological processes in my body, but not because I don't believe in a god. I'm in the best mental health of my life and not at all depressed now, and I don't believe in a god.

Also I should add that across my 50+ years of existence I've known far more religious that non religious people, and many of them suffered depression despite their religious faith. Religious faith doesn't cure biologically based depression.

I'd also like to add that in my younger years, people were discouraged from doing real therapy (only faith based) or taking medication to treat very treatable things like depression. Many people who were gay or trans were so depressed they killed themselves because their religion kept telling them they were wrong, and praying will help. So instead of getting actual help, they stay depressed, or end their lives to end the depression.

Clearly we know that isn't true now, and I believe it's not as stigmatized, but likely still looked down upon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, this is one thing that I struggle with myself.

The last church I went to, the pastor was talking about how the way we pray makes a difference, that there're correct and incorrect ways of praying. I broke down right then and there, thinking that I must not have prayed correctly b/c why else did my mom suffer so much from her cancer and die with such agony and indignity. Then I got really angry at the idea that if you pray incorrectly, God will refuse to listen.

I don't know the answer. And I suspect nobody really does.

Let me try.

God doesn't really exist in the way people think and cancer is a chain of events that happens inside the body. God does not give people cancer anymore than God heals people with cancer.

Does God dictate the laws of physics or does God follow then? If God dictates the laws of physics than surely we would see miracles that are exceptions. We don't

But God created cancer. If God wanted to create bodies in which cells didn't mutate, God could have done so - unless you don't believe that God actually has control over everything in the universe? There is no "good" God unless there is also an evil god, who also creates and dishes to humans all the traumas and pains in life.

Ultimately, the evidence is clear - there is no god. Not in any "creator" type sense. No afterlife, no being that actually starts and ends.

So where does pediatric cancer come from?

It comes from a genetic mutation gone awry, which all human bodies are susceptible to. Because that's how God chose to create human bodies (or god doesn't exist, which is more likely).

What a weird answer. The God the who definitely doesn’t exist created pediatric cancer.

OK now you are just being a petulant jerk. You’re embarrassing yourself. Every person can see that is not what PP wrote.

A bunch of people who don’t believe God exists are insisting the non-existent God created pediatric cancer. It doesn’t make any sense. Entities who do not exist do not create or destroy anything.

Many people have already answered this, you are just being purposefully obtuse.

1) Atheists don't believe in god, therefore don't believe god created cancer that kills children.
2) If you do believe in god, and god created everything, then he must have also created cancer that kills children.

Person 1 does not believe what person 2 believes. No atheist thinks a non-existent god created cancer that kills children. You just keep copy and pasting this all over every religious thread and it makes it seem like you can't read properly.

No; evil doesn’t come from God. Evil is an absence of God. Humans have free will.

God had already made the world so no cancer existed. Adam and Eve were not satisfied with that; they decided to disobey God and wanted to be gods. They rejected the pediatric cancer free world which God had graciously already provided for us.

Because we have free will and are not Westworld humanoid robots God created in His lab, preloaded with software that makes it so we like Him. And we aren’t programmed to do what He wants. We have the ability to choose what we do.

[Anonymous]

Yeah what the atheists fail to understand is that the Christian God never promised us a nice happy life free of pain and suffering. That idea comes from the dumbing down of christianity into just a nice Jesus who loves everyone.

In fact, if you look at the gospels, God promises great suffering in this life. This is why st. Paul says "but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishnes."

So why do billions of people believe in such "foolishness?" Christianity is full of these conundrums. Why did a religious figure that got tortured and died a shameful, helpless, public death gain any followers at all? Really, viewed with worldly eyes, Christianity is not attractive at all. If you really care to find out why people believe in Christianity, you need to open to rethinking all your assumptions in life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, this is one thing that I struggle with myself.

The last church I went to, the pastor was talking about how the way we pray makes a difference, that there're correct and incorrect ways of praying. I broke down right then and there, thinking that I must not have prayed correctly b/c why else did my mom suffer so much from her cancer and die with such agony and indignity. Then I got really angry at the idea that if you pray incorrectly, God will refuse to listen.

I don't know the answer. And I suspect nobody really does.

Let me try.

God doesn't really exist in the way people think and cancer is a chain of events that happens inside the body. God does not give people cancer anymore than God heals people with cancer.

Does God dictate the laws of physics or does God follow then? If God dictates the laws of physics than surely we would see miracles that are exceptions. We don't

But God created cancer. If God wanted to create bodies in which cells didn't mutate, God could have done so - unless you don't believe that God actually has control over everything in the universe? There is no "good" God unless there is also an evil god, who also creates and dishes to humans all the traumas and pains in life.

Ultimately, the evidence is clear - there is no god. Not in any "creator" type sense. No afterlife, no being that actually starts and ends.

So where does pediatric cancer come from?

It comes from a genetic mutation gone awry, which all human bodies are susceptible to. Because that's how God chose to create human bodies (or god doesn't exist, which is more likely).

What a weird answer. The God the who definitely doesn’t exist created pediatric cancer.

OK now you are just being a petulant jerk. You’re embarrassing yourself. Every person can see that is not what PP wrote.

A bunch of people who don’t believe God exists are insisting the non-existent God created pediatric cancer. It doesn’t make any sense. Entities who do not exist do not create or destroy anything.

Many people have already answered this, you are just being purposefully obtuse.

1) Atheists don't believe in god, therefore don't believe god created cancer that kills children.
2) If you do believe in god, and god created everything, then he must have also created cancer that kills children.

Person 1 does not believe what person 2 believes. No atheist thinks a non-existent god created cancer that kills children. You just keep copy and pasting this all over every religious thread and it makes it seem like you can't read properly.

No; evil doesn’t come from God. Evil is an absence of God. Humans have free will.

God had already made the world so no cancer existed. Adam and Eve were not satisfied with that; they decided to disobey God and wanted to be gods. They rejected the pediatric cancer free world which God had graciously already provided for us.

Because we have free will and are not Westworld humanoid robots God created in His lab, preloaded with software that makes it so we like Him. And we aren’t programmed to do what He wants. We have the ability to choose what we do.

K well I want to use my free will to not get cancer, or have my children or family get cancer. Unfortunately that's not how free will works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, this is one thing that I struggle with myself.

The last church I went to, the pastor was talking about how the way we pray makes a difference, that there're correct and incorrect ways of praying. I broke down right then and there, thinking that I must not have prayed correctly b/c why else did my mom suffer so much from her cancer and die with such agony and indignity. Then I got really angry at the idea that if you pray incorrectly, God will refuse to listen.

I don't know the answer. And I suspect nobody really does.

Let me try.

God doesn't really exist in the way people think and cancer is a chain of events that happens inside the body. God does not give people cancer anymore than God heals people with cancer.

Does God dictate the laws of physics or does God follow then? If God dictates the laws of physics than surely we would see miracles that are exceptions. We don't

But God created cancer. If God wanted to create bodies in which cells didn't mutate, God could have done so - unless you don't believe that God actually has control over everything in the universe? There is no "good" God unless there is also an evil god, who also creates and dishes to humans all the traumas and pains in life.

Ultimately, the evidence is clear - there is no god. Not in any "creator" type sense. No afterlife, no being that actually starts and ends.

So where does pediatric cancer come from?

It comes from a genetic mutation gone awry, which all human bodies are susceptible to. Because that's how God chose to create human bodies (or god doesn't exist, which is more likely).

What a weird answer. The God the who definitely doesn’t exist created pediatric cancer.

OK now you are just being a petulant jerk. You’re embarrassing yourself. Every person can see that is not what PP wrote.

A bunch of people who don’t believe God exists are insisting the non-existent God created pediatric cancer. It doesn’t make any sense. Entities who do not exist do not create or destroy anything.

Many people have already answered this, you are just being purposefully obtuse.

1) Atheists don't believe in god, therefore don't believe god created cancer that kills children.
2) If you do believe in god, and god created everything, then he must have also created cancer that kills children.

Person 1 does not believe what person 2 believes. No atheist thinks a non-existent god created cancer that kills children. You just keep copy and pasting this all over every religious thread and it makes it seem like you can't read properly.

No; evil doesn’t come from God. Evil is an absence of God. Humans have free will.

God had already made the world so no cancer existed. Adam and Eve were not satisfied with that; they decided to disobey God and wanted to be gods. They rejected the pediatric cancer free world which God had graciously already provided for us.

Because we have free will and are not Westworld humanoid robots God created in His lab, preloaded with software that makes it so we like Him. And we aren’t programmed to do what He wants. We have the ability to choose what we do.

K well I want to use my free will to not get cancer, or have my children or family get cancer. Unfortunately that's not how free will works.

We would all love perfect lives. There isn’t a single human being on earth that would choose to be poor or sick.

Free will is how we live our lives no matter how poor or sick or healthy or rich we are. Very wealthy people who are given so much can be terrible people. Poor people who have nothing can be the most wonderful and beautiful souls on earth.

Free will is the capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action. It is not choosing to live forever, choosing to not be sick, choosing to win the lottery, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First off, this question, the question of suffering (and evil) is one of the toughest questions for Christianity, so you are not alone in raising this. It has been written about over and over from different angles by different theologians. If are looking for an answer, start with some books, not here.

Here are some personal thoughts on this issue. First, Christianity looks at suffering through a very different lens than secular society. In Christianity, suffering is redemptive. Part of the reason Jesus has to die (as someone asked) is precisely to show us the power of obedience and suffering. So I think for the faithful, they view tragic events differently, or aspire to. They try to focus on the love in the situation, and the grief, while real, is an extension of that love.

Second is the idea that whatever suffering there is in this world will pale in comparison to the glory of heaven. We feel suffering and evil acutely because this world is all we know and anything that shatters our lives in this world feels catastrophic. However, this is not how God sees things. It is like if your 2 year old needs to have some procedure, it might feel like the end of the world for him, but you as the parent know that the small pain is worth it because it will make him healthier in the long run. We don't have the long view but God does.

Third is the idea that God does not create any of the evil or suffering. He allows it, which might be a small distinction but it is an important one. And he only allows suffering and evil when it would ultimately bring about a greater good. I find the parent analogy really apt here. A good parent would never cause harm or suffering to their child but might allow a certain amount of suffering in order to bring about a greater good (natural consequences, for example, or to learn value of hard work etc).

Thanks for this thoughtful answer.

To me though, it still doesn't quite track. If we believe that God is omnipotent, God gets to decide what is redemptive and God gets to decide the relative positive experience of worldly suffering v. heavenly glory. He sets up the system. So why would suffering even need to enter into the equation?

Your question goes deep into philosophical/theological territory. I have my own views, which I'll share, but I think ultimately we will never know (in this world) why the world had to be set up the exact way that it is. To me, that is not a cop out because if God is defined, as it classically is, as that which nothing greater can be thought, then God's thinking is way above ours. It is like a 2 dimensional creature trying to understand the 3D world, only perhaps the gulf is even greater. We will never understand to our satisfaction here, but I believe God gives us enough, through our mental faculties, that we can understand enough to have faith.

Ok now my random thoughts. God is omnipotent but that doesn't mean that he can do anything. He cannot contradict himself, for example, or perform logical absurdities. He cannot make a creature greater than himself, he cannot commit evil, etc. The fact that God cannot defy logic is not a limitation on God but rather logic as we know it, comes from God and is part of his essence. Anyways, part of God's logic is that true love can only be freely given, and that growth comes through overcoming hardship. These are not foreign concepts. We see these themes echoed in story after story (secular and biblical), art, personal experience, observations in the natural world (did anyone read Anxious Generation? look at concept of anti-fragility). Because God does not want slaves or servants, but to be friends with us, he wants us to gain a deeper understanding of him and to freely love him. It is in this context we have evil and suffering. God does not want to force us to love him, to do the right thing. God does not want us to stay as children, pampered, spoiled, and helpless. Once again I go to the parent-child analogy. The child might put up a big fuss about learning his letters or getting sick or being denied certain things, but the parent knows that it is worth it in the long view.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, this is one thing that I struggle with myself.

The last church I went to, the pastor was talking about how the way we pray makes a difference, that there're correct and incorrect ways of praying. I broke down right then and there, thinking that I must not have prayed correctly b/c why else did my mom suffer so much from her cancer and die with such agony and indignity. Then I got really angry at the idea that if you pray incorrectly, God will refuse to listen.

I don't know the answer. And I suspect nobody really does.

Let me try.

God doesn't really exist in the way people think and cancer is a chain of events that happens inside the body. God does not give people cancer anymore than God heals people with cancer.

Does God dictate the laws of physics or does God follow then? If God dictates the laws of physics than surely we would see miracles that are exceptions. We don't

But God created cancer. If God wanted to create bodies in which cells didn't mutate, God could have done so - unless you don't believe that God actually has control over everything in the universe? There is no "good" God unless there is also an evil god, who also creates and dishes to humans all the traumas and pains in life.

Ultimately, the evidence is clear - there is no god. Not in any "creator" type sense. No afterlife, no being that actually starts and ends.

So where does pediatric cancer come from?

It comes from a genetic mutation gone awry, which all human bodies are susceptible to. Because that's how God chose to create human bodies (or god doesn't exist, which is more likely).

What a weird answer. The God the who definitely doesn’t exist created pediatric cancer.

OK now you are just being a petulant jerk. You’re embarrassing yourself. Every person can see that is not what PP wrote.

A bunch of people who don’t believe God exists are insisting the non-existent God created pediatric cancer. It doesn’t make any sense. Entities who do not exist do not create or destroy anything.

Many people have already answered this, you are just being purposefully obtuse.

1) Atheists don't believe in god, therefore don't believe god created cancer that kills children.
2) If you do believe in god, and god created everything, then he must have also created cancer that kills children.

Person 1 does not believe what person 2 believes. No atheist thinks a non-existent god created cancer that kills children. You just keep copy and pasting this all over every religious thread and it makes it seem like you can't read properly.

No; evil doesn’t come from God. Evil is an absence of God. Humans have free will.

God had already made the world so no cancer existed. Adam and Eve were not satisfied with that; they decided to disobey God and wanted to be gods. They rejected the pediatric cancer free world which God had graciously already provided for us.

Because we have free will and are not Westworld humanoid robots God created in His lab, preloaded with software that makes it so we like Him. And we aren’t programmed to do what He wants. We have the ability to choose what we do.

K well I want to use my free will to not get cancer, or have my children or family get cancer. Unfortunately that's not how free will works.

We would all love perfect lives. There isn’t a single human being on earth that would choose to be poor or sick.

Free will is how we live our lives no matter how poor or sick or healthy or rich we are. Very wealthy people who are given so much can be terrible people. Poor people who have nothing can be the most wonderful and beautiful souls on earth.

Free will is the capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action. It is not choosing to live forever, choosing to not be sick, choosing to win the lottery, etc.

Yes, that is the point PP is making. You just affirmed the point (I assume) you were trying to refute. That stuff is all true, so stop trying to use free will as the excuse for the god you believe in’s behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, this is one thing that I struggle with myself.

The last church I went to, the pastor was talking about how the way we pray makes a difference, that there're correct and incorrect ways of praying. I broke down right then and there, thinking that I must not have prayed correctly b/c why else did my mom suffer so much from her cancer and die with such agony and indignity. Then I got really angry at the idea that if you pray incorrectly, God will refuse to listen.

I don't know the answer. And I suspect nobody really does.

Let me try.

God doesn't really exist in the way people think and cancer is a chain of events that happens inside the body. God does not give people cancer anymore than God heals people with cancer.

Does God dictate the laws of physics or does God follow then? If God dictates the laws of physics than surely we would see miracles that are exceptions. We don't

But God created cancer. If God wanted to create bodies in which cells didn't mutate, God could have done so - unless you don't believe that God actually has control over everything in the universe? There is no "good" God unless there is also an evil god, who also creates and dishes to humans all the traumas and pains in life.

Ultimately, the evidence is clear - there is no god. Not in any "creator" type sense. No afterlife, no being that actually starts and ends.

So where does pediatric cancer come from?

It comes from a genetic mutation gone awry, which all human bodies are susceptible to. Because that's how God chose to create human bodies (or god doesn't exist, which is more likely).

What a weird answer. The God the who definitely doesn’t exist created pediatric cancer.

OK now you are just being a petulant jerk. You’re embarrassing yourself. Every person can see that is not what PP wrote.

A bunch of people who don’t believe God exists are insisting the non-existent God created pediatric cancer. It doesn’t make any sense. Entities who do not exist do not create or destroy anything.

Many people have already answered this, you are just being purposefully obtuse.

1) Atheists don't believe in god, therefore don't believe god created cancer that kills children.
2) If you do believe in god, and god created everything, then he must have also created cancer that kills children.

Person 1 does not believe what person 2 believes. No atheist thinks a non-existent god created cancer that kills children. You just keep copy and pasting this all over every religious thread and it makes it seem like you can't read properly.

No; evil doesn’t come from God. Evil is an absence of God. Humans have free will.

God had already made the world so no cancer existed. Adam and Eve were not satisfied with that; they decided to disobey God and wanted to be gods. They rejected the pediatric cancer free world which God had graciously already provided for us.

Because we have free will and are not Westworld humanoid robots God created in His lab, preloaded with software that makes it so we like Him. And we aren’t programmed to do what He wants. We have the ability to choose what we do.

K well I want to use my free will to not get cancer, or have my children or family get cancer. Unfortunately that's not how free will works.

We would all love perfect lives. There isn’t a single human being on earth that would choose to be poor or sick.

Free will is how we live our lives no matter how poor or sick or healthy or rich we are. Very wealthy people who are given so much can be terrible people. Poor people who have nothing can be the most wonderful and beautiful souls on earth.

Free will is the capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action. It is not choosing to live forever, choosing to not be sick, choosing to win the lottery, etc.

Yes, that is the point PP is making. You just affirmed the point (I assume) you were trying to refute. That stuff is all true, so stop trying to use free will as the excuse for the god you believe in’s behavior.

So you’re one of the “I don’t believe in God, but He gives babies cancer” posters. That doesn’t make any sense. It explains why you are obsessed and miserable though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First off, this question, the question of suffering (and evil) is one of the toughest questions for Christianity, so you are not alone in raising this. It has been written about over and over from different angles by different theologians. If are looking for an answer, start with some books, not here.

Here are some personal thoughts on this issue. First, Christianity looks at suffering through a very different lens than secular society. In Christianity, suffering is redemptive. Part of the reason Jesus has to die (as someone asked) is precisely to show us the power of obedience and suffering. So I think for the faithful, they view tragic events differently, or aspire to. They try to focus on the love in the situation, and the grief, while real, is an extension of that love.

Second is the idea that whatever suffering there is in this world will pale in comparison to the glory of heaven. We feel suffering and evil acutely because this world is all we know and anything that shatters our lives in this world feels catastrophic. However, this is not how God sees things. It is like if your 2 year old needs to have some procedure, it might feel like the end of the world for him, but you as the parent know that the small pain is worth it because it will make him healthier in the long run. We don't have the long view but God does.

Third is the idea that God does not create any of the evil or suffering. He allows it, which might be a small distinction but it is an important one. And he only allows suffering and evil when it would ultimately bring about a greater good. I find the parent analogy really apt here. A good parent would never cause harm or suffering to their child but might allow a certain amount of suffering in order to bring about a greater good (natural consequences, for example, or to learn value of hard work etc).

Thanks for this thoughtful answer.

To me though, it still doesn't quite track. If we believe that God is omnipotent, God gets to decide what is redemptive and God gets to decide the relative positive experience of worldly suffering v. heavenly glory. He sets up the system. So why would suffering even need to enter into the equation?

Your question goes deep into philosophical/theological territory. I have my own views, which I'll share, but I think ultimately we will never know (in this world) why the world had to be set up the exact way that it is. To me, that is not a cop out because if God is defined, as it classically is, as that which nothing greater can be thought, then God's thinking is way above ours. It is like a 2 dimensional creature trying to understand the 3D world, only perhaps the gulf is even greater. We will never understand to our satisfaction here, but I believe God gives us enough, through our mental faculties, that we can understand enough to have faith.

Ok now my random thoughts. God is omnipotent but that doesn't mean that he can do anything. He cannot contradict himself, for example, or perform logical absurdities. He cannot make a creature greater than himself, he cannot commit evil, etc. The fact that God cannot defy logic is not a limitation on God but rather logic as we know it, comes from God and is part of his essence. Anyways, part of God's logic is that true love can only be freely given, and that growth comes through overcoming hardship. These are not foreign concepts. We see these themes echoed in story after story (secular and biblical), art, personal experience, observations in the natural world (did anyone read Anxious Generation? look at concept of anti-fragility). Because God does not want slaves or servants, but to be friends with us, he wants us to gain a deeper understanding of him and to freely love him. It is in this context we have evil and suffering. God does not want to force us to love him, to do the right thing. God does not want us to stay as children, pampered, spoiled, and helpless. Once again I go to the parent-child analogy. The child might put up a big fuss about learning his letters or getting sick or being denied certain things, but the parent knows that it is worth it in the long view.

PP here. Thanks again for another thoughtful answer.

I don't say this to be dismissive, but I think this exchange gets to the crux of why non-believers, like myself, can never reconcile the concept of an omnipotent and loving god.
In the end, belief is not logical or reasonable, at least not completely.

Some people are capable and willing to make that "leap of faith." Others are either not capable, or not willing, or both.

So then, at least on this board, either group just devolves into pointlessly hurling insults at the other....

It is sad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The flip side is, what do atheist believe about such suffering? If you don't believe in God, then it is all just random and meaningless. For people who are deeply affected by suffering (and not everyone is), they either end up religious or they become depressed.

Disabled atheist who thinks there is no intentional meaning in anything in this world. Errors in bodies like mine, accidents or sickness are mostly random (except when something is induced by carcinogens). War and poverty are caused by humans and we could put an end to those things if we acted collectively, but choose not to. But suffering can make you more empathetic to others, so that’s at least one takeaway.

I am neither religious nor depressed. Life is what it is. Make the most of it. Change what you can. Don’t dwell on what you can’t. This is from the pov of someone leading a relatively comfortable life outside a war zone. Harder for those in severe pain that can’t be lessened, those being bombed or who cannot escape poverty for whatever greater forces are out there.

If there were a god and an afterlife I would expect and hope that people who have suffered in this world would get to have the best that the afterlife has to offer to make up for their trials and tribulations, the first class accommodations if you will. Whereas those who have lead a charmed and pampered life would just get the basics. That of course is a very human notion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Cold is the absence of heat. Darkness is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good.

God gave His creatures freedom. When He created angels and humans, they had the capacity to freely choose to love God and all that is good. Instead, Lucifer and other angels abused their freedom and tried to take God’s place in order to lead the whole world astray.

Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they cooperated with Satan’s evil plan.

Instead of destroying all evil people, God set up a plan. God himself decided to enter history as a human being in Jesus Christ. He never did anything that was evil. But he lived a truly good life. Yet, as God, he decided to absorb all the world’s evil into Himself. He let evil crush him on the cross.

In Genesis 3, a serpent tempts the woman:
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
— Genesis 3:4–5, KJV

The serpent told Eve that eating the fruit from the tree would make her and Adam as gods. Adam and Eve didn’t want knowledge: they wanted to be gods.


Their physical condition changed as a result of their eating the forbidden fruit. As God had promised, they became mortal. Now Adam and Eve could get sick and die. They had to leave the garden of Eden. That’s where the physical illness and death that humans now experience originated. God’s plan was not for us to experience illness and death.

If you don’t believe in God, you don’t believe any of that happened. You must have an alternative theory to why people get sick and die, and why humans are not immortal and get diseases and can die from accidents and injuries. Something else makes humans mortal and age and die.

Humans age and die just like animals and plants because that’s the way nature is. If there’s a beginning (conception) then there’s bound to be an ending. Certainly you couldn’t have children if no one ever died cause it would get awfully crowded if not. This earth is beautiful but also imperfect. Sometimes those random imperfections, of which there are many, lead to new things, some of which are positive and some of which are negative. There is not some being out there who is directing it all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cold is the absence of heat. Darkness is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good.

God gave His creatures freedom. When He created angels and humans, they had the capacity to freely choose to love God and all that is good. Instead, Lucifer and other angels abused their freedom and tried to take God’s place in order to lead the whole world astray.

Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they cooperated with Satan’s evil plan.

Instead of destroying all evil people, God set up a plan. God himself decided to enter history as a human being in Jesus Christ. He never did anything that was evil. But he lived a truly good life. Yet, as God, he decided to absorb all the world’s evil into Himself. He let evil crush him on the cross.

In Genesis 3, a serpent tempts the woman:
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
— Genesis 3:4–5, KJV

The serpent told Eve that eating the fruit from the tree would make her and Adam as gods. Adam and Eve didn’t want knowledge: they wanted to be gods.


Their physical condition changed as a result of their eating the forbidden fruit. As God had promised, they became mortal. Now Adam and Eve could get sick and die. They had to leave the garden of Eden. That’s where the physical illness and death that humans now experience originated. God’s plan was not for us to experience illness and death.

If you don’t believe in God, you don’t believe any of that happened. You must have an alternative theory to why people get sick and die, and why humans are not immortal and get diseases and can die from accidents and injuries. Something else makes humans mortal and age and die.

Humans age and die just like animals and plants because that’s the way nature is. If there’s a beginning (conception) then there’s bound to be an ending. Certainly you couldn’t have children if no one ever died cause it would get awfully crowded if not. This earth is beautiful but also imperfect. Sometimes those random imperfections, of which there are many, lead to new things, some of which are positive and some of which are negative. There is not some being out there who is directing it all.

That’s your personal opinion, which is all well and good. Everyone in the US has a right to have their opinions about everything. However that doesn’t mean your opinion is valid for everyone else. Some people think like you, others do not. That’s why we have a great country; we have absolute freedom of thought and expression.

I think that God exists and I don’t think He chooses anyone to give a painful disease to. I don’t think He looks down and sees a person crossing the road and wiggles His fingers and makes another person driving a car speed up against their will and smash into the pedestrian. I don’t think God has a list of people He gives cancer or AIDS, and I don’t think He decides who wins the lottery or gets a prize at the county fair.

Both our opinions are valid and reasonable and acceptable. Neither are wrong or right; they simply are what we choose to believe. I don’t care what other people believe nor do I want to make them believe as I do. I wish atheists would enjoy their freedom and stop trying to convince people that the way they think is “right.” Nobody should worry about what others think and we all should appreciate our freedom to think as we wish. It says a lot about a person when they decide they have to advertise their own opinions and pretend their opinions are special and correct.