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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]First off, this question, the question of suffering (and evil) is one of the toughest questions for Christianity, so you are not alone in raising this. It has been written about over and over from different angles by different theologians. If are looking for an answer, start with some books, not here.

Here are some personal thoughts on this issue. First, Christianity looks at suffering through a very different lens than secular society. In Christianity, [b]suffering is redemptive.[/b] Part of the reason Jesus has to die (as someone asked) is precisely to show us the power of obedience and suffering. So I think for the faithful, they view tragic events differently, or aspire to. They try to focus on the love in the situation, and the grief, while real, is an extension of that love.

Second is the idea that [b]whatever suffering there is in this world will pale in comparison to the glory of heaven.[/b] We feel suffering and evil acutely because this world is all we know and anything that shatters our lives in this world feels catastrophic. However, this is not how God sees things. It is like if your 2 year old needs to have some procedure, it might feel like the end of the world for him, but you as the parent know that the small pain is worth it because it will make him healthier in the long run. We don't have the long view but God does.

Third is the idea that God does not create any of the evil or suffering. He allows it, which might be a small distinction but it is an important one. And he only allows suffering and evil when it would ultimately bring about a greater good. I find the parent analogy really apt here. A good parent would never cause harm or suffering to their child but might allow a certain amount of suffering in order to bring about a greater good (natural consequences, for example, or to learn value of hard work etc).[/quote]

Thanks for this thoughtful answer.

To me though, it still doesn't quite track.  If we believe that God is omnipotent, God gets to decide what is redemptive and God gets to decide the relative positive experience of worldly suffering v. heavenly glory.  He sets up the system.  So why would suffering even need to enter into the equation?[/quote]

Your question goes deep into philosophical/theological territory. I have my own views, which I'll share, but I think ultimately we will never know (in this world) why the world had to be set up the exact way that it is. To me, that is not a cop out because if God is defined, as it classically is, as that which nothing greater can be thought, then God's thinking is way above ours.  It is like a 2 dimensional creature trying to understand the 3D world, only perhaps the gulf is even greater.  We will never understand to our satisfaction here, but I believe God gives us enough, through our mental faculties, that we can understand enough to have faith.

Ok now my random thoughts. God is omnipotent but that doesn't mean that he can do anything.  He cannot contradict himself, for example, or perform logical absurdities.  He cannot make a creature greater than himself, he cannot commit evil, etc.  The fact that God cannot defy logic is not a limitation on God but rather logic as we know it, comes from God and is part of his essence. Anyways, part of God's logic is that true love can only be freely given, and that growth comes through overcoming hardship.  These are not foreign concepts.  We see these themes echoed in story after story (secular and biblical), art, personal experience, observations in the natural world (did anyone read Anxious Generation?  look at concept of anti-fragility). Because God does not want slaves or servants, but to be friends with us, he wants us to gain a deeper understanding of him and to freely love him.  It is in this context we have evil and suffering.  God does not want to force us to love him, to do the right thing.  God does not want us to stay as children, pampered, spoiled, and helpless.  Once again I go to the parent-child analogy.  The child might put up a big fuss about learning his letters or getting sick or being denied certain things, but the parent knows that it is worth it in the long view.

[/quote]

PP here.  Thanks again for another thoughtful answer.

I don't say this to be dismissive, but I think this exchange gets to the crux of why non-believers, like myself, can never reconcile the concept of an omnipotent and loving god.
In the end, belief is not logical or reasonable, at least not completely.

Some people are capable and willing to make that "leap of faith."  Others are either not capable, or not willing, or both.

So then, at least on this board, either group just devolves into pointlessly hurling insults at the other....

It is sad.[/quote]

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