Does taking AP Calc freshmen year in HS give enough "bonus" points to make it worth it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. It might actually signal that the parent is driving the bus on math enrichment. No reason a kid should take Calc before 10th. Otherwise, not really enough lower tier college math courses to take to fill out 4 years if math.

lol. You clearly have no clue. Look at some degree major requirements or department policies to get an idea. You can also repeat classes or place directly into more advanced classes.

Actually, I know the curricula very well. You probably didn't understand what I was saying, or just have a unique blend of arrogance and ignorance.

My kid is a math major at a T10 (decided between 2 T10 and some other top schools, so checked curricula with departments at all) and fulfilled all the math base tier requirements in HS. Top colleges may let you use college level work in HS to place out if lower tier or pre req classes, but they won't for upper tier, so if someone took AP Calc in 9th, they may run out of those base classes. It also won't look any more impressive.

And, there is nothing super special about placing out. Some like to retake. Mine went to a magnet HS with incredible math depth and wanted the placement. Was the right choice for her.

Can you give a specific example on how a kid taking Calculus in 9th would run out of classes to take either in high school or in college? The assumption is that they can access introductory level classes at the local community college, and they could also retake some in college if they wish to.

PP here. If multi/diffeq 10th, linear/elective 11th, they could try to add discrete for 12th, but that is a semester. Or possibly logic or complex if school offers, but these wouldn't get much and may not fill the gap. The ones that can help with placement are Calc, multi, diffeq, linear. We did not see any real options to place out of other classes. I suppose those could be used to help with narrative. My kid (BC in 10th) took linear, discrete and complex in 12th. It would have gained her nothing to take BC in 9th, and she might have had a semester without a math or have to scramble to fill at cc.

A semester CC class is a year's worth of math, so no need to worry about no math for a semester

PP here. Not at my kid's school. It was a semester.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC will be taking AP Calc as 9th grader. They plans on taking AP stats at the high school, then continute to take higher math classes at the CC for 11th and 12th grade. I remember seeing that 1/3 of Princeton students took a similar path.

The upside is hopefully stand out for top colleges.

The downside is taking classes off campus and not in high school enviroment.

Is the net result that a student stands out enough that it worth the detriment?

This is ridiculous. Your DC is obviously very smart but this seems unnecessary.
College acceptances are a crap shoot. Your kid could give up their lives to study and not get into any of their dream schools.
My point is only that kids should not make every decision in high school because they worry what colleges will think. Yes he should challenge himself but let him live a normal life.
Colleges won't necessarily think he's better than other applicants who tool AP Calc later on. Find a hook and develop that. Your DC academics are going to be great no matter what.

Spot on. My kid did took Calc BC in 10th and then advanced math classes because they love math. Some sort of hook for college admissions was never a consideration. And good thing since it certainly was no golden ticket. The kid on the crew team got that.

Same for mine, but I think the post mvc classes did help her express her math interest to admissions, since she didn't do competitions. She is a math major at a T10 now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC will be taking AP Calc as 9th grader. They plans on taking AP stats at the high school, then continute to take higher math classes at the CC for 11th and 12th grade. I remember seeing that 1/3 of Princeton students took a similar path.

The upside is hopefully stand out for top colleges.

The downside is taking classes off campus and not in high school enviroment.

Is the net result that a student stands out enough that it worth the detriment?

This is ridiculous. Your DC is obviously very smart but this seems unnecessary.
College acceptances are a crap shoot. Your kid could give up their lives to study and not get into any of their dream schools.
My point is only that kids should not make every decision in high school because they worry what colleges will think. Yes he should challenge himself but let him live a normal life.
Colleges won't necessarily think he's better than other applicants who tool AP Calc later on. Find a hook and develop that. Your DC academics are going to be great no matter what.

Spot on. My kid did took Calc BC in 10th and then advanced math classes because they love math. Some sort of hook for college admissions was never a consideration. And good thing since it certainly was no golden ticket. The kid on the crew team got that.

Same for mine, but I think the post mvc classes did help her express her math interest to admissions, since she didn't do competitions. She is a math major at a T10 now.

Did your kid do any math major type math? Weird to want to be a math major but only do the school-standard engineering-style math in HS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. It might actually signal that the parent is driving the bus on math enrichment. No reason a kid should take Calc before 10th. Otherwise, not really enough lower tier college math courses to take to fill out 4 years if math.

lol. You clearly have no clue. Look at some degree major requirements or department policies to get an idea. You can also repeat classes or place directly into more advanced classes.

Actually, I know the curricula very well. You probably didn't understand what I was saying, or just have a unique blend of arrogance and ignorance.

My kid is a math major at a T10 (decided between 2 T10 and some other top schools, so checked curricula with departments at all) and fulfilled all the math base tier requirements in HS. Top colleges may let you use college level work in HS to place out if lower tier or pre req classes, but they won't for upper tier, so if someone took AP Calc in 9th, they may run out of those base classes. It also won't look any more impressive.

And, there is nothing super special about placing out. Some like to retake. Mine went to a magnet HS with incredible math depth and wanted the placement. Was the right choice for her.

Can you give a specific example on how a kid taking Calculus in 9th would run out of classes to take either in high school or in college? The assumption is that they can access introductory level classes at the local community college, and they could also retake some in college if they wish to.

PP here. If multi/diffeq 10th, linear/elective 11th, they could try to add discrete for 12th, but that is a semester. Or possibly logic or complex if school offers, but these wouldn't get much and may not fill the gap. The ones that can help with placement are Calc, multi, diffeq, linear. We did not see any real options to place out of other classes. I suppose those could be used to help with narrative. My kid (BC in 10th) took linear, discrete and complex in 12th. It would have gained her nothing to take BC in 9th, and she might have had a semester without a math or have to scramble to fill at cc.

The OPs student planed to take Calculus in 9th and AP statistics in 10. So Multi and LA in 11th, then Diff Eq and Discrete in 12th.

You don’t run out of classes, no need to take the AB+BC sequence. Another poster mentioned that CCs also have independent study that could substitute for a class.

Sure you coukd do that, but I don't view AP Stats as a math class in the vein of the others. I also don't think it is a good idea to take a year between Calc and multi. My point was that doing Calc in 9th gets you no edge. Stats does not offer an edge or contribute to math reqs (even if you can get credit), and it might feel like a decrease in rigor.

It really depends what the student wants to take besides math, but it makes more sense to take AP statistics before multivariable, which might be useful only if planning to take university level electromagnetism and thermodynamics. I wouldn’t count AP Physics C EM in that category.

Statistics will give exposure to areas that are not typically covered in high school, like counting and probability, essentially the first semester of the class, and it will help with science classes as well. It has its own issues, but in my view the right time to take Statistics is after Calculus BC. Often you hear that Statistics is not rigorous, I strongly disagree with this, it comes from either ignorance or from experiencing poor teaching in high schools.

It's not poor teaching, poor teaching would be using calculus in an algebra based class. Imagine if the AP Physics 1 teacher started pulling out derivatives and integrals to make it more rigorous to the bewildered 9th and 10th graders. The best thing to do is to take a calculus-based probability and statistics class, which you won't find in highschool.

Most community colleges don’t offer calculus based statistics. You’re arguing that if taking calculus early there won’t be enough classes to take, but don’t recommend statistics because it’s not calculus based.
You are actually using calculus in “algebra based” statistics class virtually every time you calculate any probability, but use a calculator to do the operation. If you want to understand the contents better, take statistics after calculus, it doesn’t mean it’s calculus based, it’s just the material makes a lot more sense.

PP here. I wasn't arguing that taking calculus early would lead to there being not enough courses to take.

No one uses calculus in AP statistics any more than the kids in AP Physics 1 memorizing and recalling the kinematics formulas are using calculus. It's just memorize and apply. If the teacher went into the calculus-based derivations, that would be bad teaching as most of the students haven't taken calculus yet (and even the ones who have rarely care about the derivations, and it's not on the AP exam), so virtually all teachers don't do that.

The thread is not about how Statistics is poorly taught in high school. The kid doing Calculus in 9th would absolutely care about how things are derived and understanding fundamentals, they are not just going to memorize and apply. It literally takes a few hours on Wikipedia and YouTube to understand how calculus fits in AP statistics.

AP Physics 1 teaches all the calculus you need to know to understand intro physics. The calculus of physics is just "area of a triangle"

What it doesn't do it set up complicated scenarios where you need to compute complicated derivates and integrals when the forces are smoothly varying.

Saying that intro physics needs calculus is like saying that intro chemistry needs physics, and intro biology needs chemistry, and into calculus itself needs real analysis.
That's not how science works. The universe is to complicated to prove everything from first principles.

[Anonymous]

What schools even allow a frehmen to take AP Calc? Not any I know of.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What schools even allow a frehmen to take AP Calc? Not any I know of.

Usually it's allowed whenever the student obtained Precalc in middle school, which is usually through bending or stretching rules.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What schools even allow a frehmen to take AP Calc? Not any I know of.

Usually it's allowed whenever the student obtained Precalc in middle school, which is usually through bending or stretching rules.

There are districts in the U.S. that do offer it as part of their academically talent program

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. It might actually signal that the parent is driving the bus on math enrichment. No reason a kid should take Calc before 10th. Otherwise, not really enough lower tier college math courses to take to fill out 4 years if math.

lol. You clearly have no clue. Look at some degree major requirements or department policies to get an idea. You can also repeat classes or place directly into more advanced classes.

Actually, I know the curricula very well. You probably didn't understand what I was saying, or just have a unique blend of arrogance and ignorance.

My kid is a math major at a T10 (decided between 2 T10 and some other top schools, so checked curricula with departments at all) and fulfilled all the math base tier requirements in HS. Top colleges may let you use college level work in HS to place out if lower tier or pre req classes, but they won't for upper tier, so if someone took AP Calc in 9th, they may run out of those base classes. It also won't look any more impressive.

And, there is nothing super special about placing out. Some like to retake. Mine went to a magnet HS with incredible math depth and wanted the placement. Was the right choice for her.

Can you give a specific example on how a kid taking Calculus in 9th would run out of classes to take either in high school or in college? The assumption is that they can access introductory level classes at the local community college, and they could also retake some in college if they wish to.

PP here. If multi/diffeq 10th, linear/elective 11th, they could try to add discrete for 12th, but that is a semester. Or possibly logic or complex if school offers, but these wouldn't get much and may not fill the gap. The ones that can help with placement are Calc, multi, diffeq, linear. We did not see any real options to place out of other classes. I suppose those could be used to help with narrative. My kid (BC in 10th) took linear, discrete and complex in 12th. It would have gained her nothing to take BC in 9th, and she might have had a semester without a math or have to scramble to fill at cc.

The OPs student planed to take Calculus in 9th and AP statistics in 10. So Multi and LA in 11th, then Diff Eq and Discrete in 12th.

You don’t run out of classes, no need to take the AB+BC sequence. Another poster mentioned that CCs also have independent study that could substitute for a class.

Sure you coukd do that, but I don't view AP Stats as a math class in the vein of the others. I also don't think it is a good idea to take a year between Calc and multi. My point was that doing Calc in 9th gets you no edge. Stats does not offer an edge or contribute to math reqs (even if you can get credit), and it might feel like a decrease in rigor.

It really depends what the student wants to take besides math, but it makes more sense to take AP statistics before multivariable, which might be useful only if planning to take university level electromagnetism and thermodynamics. I wouldn’t count AP Physics C EM in that category.

Statistics will give exposure to areas that are not typically covered in high school, like counting and probability, essentially the first semester of the class, and it will help with science classes as well. It has its own issues, but in my view the right time to take Statistics is after Calculus BC. Often you hear that Statistics is not rigorous, I strongly disagree with this, it comes from either ignorance or from experiencing poor teaching in high schools.

It's not poor teaching, poor teaching would be using calculus in an algebra based class. Imagine if the AP Physics 1 teacher started pulling out derivatives and integrals to make it more rigorous to the bewildered 9th and 10th graders. The best thing to do is to take a calculus-based probability and statistics class, which you won't find in highschool.

Most community colleges don’t offer calculus based statistics. You’re arguing that if taking calculus early there won’t be enough classes to take, but don’t recommend statistics because it’s not calculus based.
You are actually using calculus in “algebra based” statistics class virtually every time you calculate any probability, but use a calculator to do the operation. If you want to understand the contents better, take statistics after calculus, it doesn’t mean it’s calculus based, it’s just the material makes a lot more sense.

PP here. I wasn't arguing that taking calculus early would lead to there being not enough courses to take.

No one uses calculus in AP statistics any more than the kids in AP Physics 1 memorizing and recalling the kinematics formulas are using calculus. It's just memorize and apply. If the teacher went into the calculus-based derivations, that would be bad teaching as most of the students haven't taken calculus yet (and even the ones who have rarely care about the derivations, and it's not on the AP exam), so virtually all teachers don't do that.

The thread is not about how Statistics is poorly taught in high school. The kid doing Calculus in 9th would absolutely care about how things are derived and understanding fundamentals, they are not just going to memorize and apply. It literally takes a few hours on Wikipedia and YouTube to understand how calculus fits in AP statistics.

AP Physics 1 teaches all the calculus you need to know to understand intro physics. The calculus of physics is just "area of a triangle"

What it doesn't do it set up complicated scenarios where you need to compute complicated derivates and integrals when the forces are smoothly varying.

Saying that intro physics needs calculus is like saying that intro chemistry needs physics, and intro biology needs chemistry, and into calculus itself needs real analysis.
That's not how science works. The universe is to complicated to prove everything from first principles.

You’re basically saying that you don’t need to know that the probability is obtained by integrating the density function, because in the statistics class you can look it up in a table.

You don’t t need to do complicated scenarios, but it’s good to have a basic understanding on where things are coming from. If you think that’s not important, to each his own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What schools even allow a frehmen to take AP Calc? Not any I know of.

Usually it's allowed whenever the student obtained Precalc in middle school, which is usually through bending or stretching rules.

There are districts in the U.S. that do offer it as part of their academically talent program

DC took Algebra in 5th grade. Did precalc in 8th grade. Was placed in the class by the school. Has gotten As in math ever since. Does not compete in math competitions. DC is an athlete and focus time there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. It might actually signal that the parent is driving the bus on math enrichment. No reason a kid should take Calc before 10th. Otherwise, not really enough lower tier college math courses to take to fill out 4 years if math.

lol. You clearly have no clue. Look at some degree major requirements or department policies to get an idea. You can also repeat classes or place directly into more advanced classes.

Actually, I know the curricula very well. You probably didn't understand what I was saying, or just have a unique blend of arrogance and ignorance.

My kid is a math major at a T10 (decided between 2 T10 and some other top schools, so checked curricula with departments at all) and fulfilled all the math base tier requirements in HS. Top colleges may let you use college level work in HS to place out if lower tier or pre req classes, but they won't for upper tier, so if someone took AP Calc in 9th, they may run out of those base classes. It also won't look any more impressive.

And, there is nothing super special about placing out. Some like to retake. Mine went to a magnet HS with incredible math depth and wanted the placement. Was the right choice for her.

Can you give a specific example on how a kid taking Calculus in 9th would run out of classes to take either in high school or in college? The assumption is that they can access introductory level classes at the local community college, and they could also retake some in college if they wish to.

PP here. If multi/diffeq 10th, linear/elective 11th, they could try to add discrete for 12th, but that is a semester. Or possibly logic or complex if school offers, but these wouldn't get much and may not fill the gap. The ones that can help with placement are Calc, multi, diffeq, linear. We did not see any real options to place out of other classes. I suppose those could be used to help with narrative. My kid (BC in 10th) took linear, discrete and complex in 12th. It would have gained her nothing to take BC in 9th, and she might have had a semester without a math or have to scramble to fill at cc.

The OPs student planed to take Calculus in 9th and AP statistics in 10. So Multi and LA in 11th, then Diff Eq and Discrete in 12th.

You don’t run out of classes, no need to take the AB+BC sequence. Another poster mentioned that CCs also have independent study that could substitute for a class.

Sure you coukd do that, but I don't view AP Stats as a math class in the vein of the others. I also don't think it is a good idea to take a year between Calc and multi. My point was that doing Calc in 9th gets you no edge. Stats does not offer an edge or contribute to math reqs (even if you can get credit), and it might feel like a decrease in rigor.

It really depends what the student wants to take besides math, but it makes more sense to take AP statistics before multivariable, which might be useful only if planning to take university level electromagnetism and thermodynamics. I wouldn’t count AP Physics C EM in that category.

Statistics will give exposure to areas that are not typically covered in high school, like counting and probability, essentially the first semester of the class, and it will help with science classes as well. It has its own issues, but in my view the right time to take Statistics is after Calculus BC. Often you hear that Statistics is not rigorous, I strongly disagree with this, it comes from either ignorance or from experiencing poor teaching in high schools.

It's not poor teaching, poor teaching would be using calculus in an algebra based class. Imagine if the AP Physics 1 teacher started pulling out derivatives and integrals to make it more rigorous to the bewildered 9th and 10th graders. The best thing to do is to take a calculus-based probability and statistics class, which you won't find in highschool.

Most community colleges don’t offer calculus based statistics. You’re arguing that if taking calculus early there won’t be enough classes to take, but don’t recommend statistics because it’s not calculus based.
You are actually using calculus in “algebra based” statistics class virtually every time you calculate any probability, but use a calculator to do the operation. If you want to understand the contents better, take statistics after calculus, it doesn’t mean it’s calculus based, it’s just the material makes a lot more sense.

PP here. I wasn't arguing that taking calculus early would lead to there being not enough courses to take.

No one uses calculus in AP statistics any more than the kids in AP Physics 1 memorizing and recalling the kinematics formulas are using calculus. It's just memorize and apply. If the teacher went into the calculus-based derivations, that would be bad teaching as most of the students haven't taken calculus yet (and even the ones who have rarely care about the derivations, and it's not on the AP exam), so virtually all teachers don't do that.

The thread is not about how Statistics is poorly taught in high school. The kid doing Calculus in 9th would absolutely care about how things are derived and understanding fundamentals, they are not just going to memorize and apply. It literally takes a few hours on Wikipedia and YouTube to understand how calculus fits in AP statistics.

AP Physics 1 teaches all the calculus you need to know to understand intro physics. The calculus of physics is just "area of a triangle"

AP Physics 1 doesn't teach any calculus - show those kids a derivative symbol or an integral and they'll have no idea what you're talking about. More fundamentally, show them a parabolic displacement-time graph and they won't be able to tell you the acceleration. There's a reason why Physics C is it's own course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. It might actually signal that the parent is driving the bus on math enrichment. No reason a kid should take Calc before 10th. Otherwise, not really enough lower tier college math courses to take to fill out 4 years if math.

lol. You clearly have no clue. Look at some degree major requirements or department policies to get an idea. You can also repeat classes or place directly into more advanced classes.

Actually, I know the curricula very well. You probably didn't understand what I was saying, or just have a unique blend of arrogance and ignorance.

My kid is a math major at a T10 (decided between 2 T10 and some other top schools, so checked curricula with departments at all) and fulfilled all the math base tier requirements in HS. Top colleges may let you use college level work in HS to place out if lower tier or pre req classes, but they won't for upper tier, so if someone took AP Calc in 9th, they may run out of those base classes. It also won't look any more impressive.

And, there is nothing super special about placing out. Some like to retake. Mine went to a magnet HS with incredible math depth and wanted the placement. Was the right choice for her.

Can you give a specific example on how a kid taking Calculus in 9th would run out of classes to take either in high school or in college? The assumption is that they can access introductory level classes at the local community college, and they could also retake some in college if they wish to.

PP here. If multi/diffeq 10th, linear/elective 11th, they could try to add discrete for 12th, but that is a semester. Or possibly logic or complex if school offers, but these wouldn't get much and may not fill the gap. The ones that can help with placement are Calc, multi, diffeq, linear. We did not see any real options to place out of other classes. I suppose those could be used to help with narrative. My kid (BC in 10th) took linear, discrete and complex in 12th. It would have gained her nothing to take BC in 9th, and she might have had a semester without a math or have to scramble to fill at cc.

The OPs student planed to take Calculus in 9th and AP statistics in 10. So Multi and LA in 11th, then Diff Eq and Discrete in 12th.

You don’t run out of classes, no need to take the AB+BC sequence. Another poster mentioned that CCs also have independent study that could substitute for a class.

Sure you coukd do that, but I don't view AP Stats as a math class in the vein of the others. I also don't think it is a good idea to take a year between Calc and multi. My point was that doing Calc in 9th gets you no edge. Stats does not offer an edge or contribute to math reqs (even if you can get credit), and it might feel like a decrease in rigor.

It really depends what the student wants to take besides math, but it makes more sense to take AP statistics before multivariable, which might be useful only if planning to take university level electromagnetism and thermodynamics. I wouldn’t count AP Physics C EM in that category.

Statistics will give exposure to areas that are not typically covered in high school, like counting and probability, essentially the first semester of the class, and it will help with science classes as well. It has its own issues, but in my view the right time to take Statistics is after Calculus BC. Often you hear that Statistics is not rigorous, I strongly disagree with this, it comes from either ignorance or from experiencing poor teaching in high schools.

It's not poor teaching, poor teaching would be using calculus in an algebra based class. Imagine if the AP Physics 1 teacher started pulling out derivatives and integrals to make it more rigorous to the bewildered 9th and 10th graders. The best thing to do is to take a calculus-based probability and statistics class, which you won't find in highschool.

Most community colleges don’t offer calculus based statistics. You’re arguing that if taking calculus early there won’t be enough classes to take, but don’t recommend statistics because it’s not calculus based.
You are actually using calculus in “algebra based” statistics class virtually every time you calculate any probability, but use a calculator to do the operation. If you want to understand the contents better, take statistics after calculus, it doesn’t mean it’s calculus based, it’s just the material makes a lot more sense.

PP here. I wasn't arguing that taking calculus early would lead to there being not enough courses to take.

No one uses calculus in AP statistics any more than the kids in AP Physics 1 memorizing and recalling the kinematics formulas are using calculus. It's just memorize and apply. If the teacher went into the calculus-based derivations, that would be bad teaching as most of the students haven't taken calculus yet (and even the ones who have rarely care about the derivations, and it's not on the AP exam), so virtually all teachers don't do that.

The kid doing Calculus in 9th would absolutely care about how things are derived and understanding fundamentals, they are not just going to memorize and apply.

This is exactly why AP statistics would be a poor fit, especially when compared to calculus-based university statistics. Statistics is a subject that deserves much more than AP stats + a few hours on YouTube and Wikipedia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What schools even allow a frehmen to take AP Calc? Not any I know of.

Usually it's allowed whenever the student obtained Precalc in middle school, which is usually through bending or stretching rules.

There are districts in the U.S. that do offer it as part of their academically talent program

DC took Algebra in 5th grade. Did precalc in 8th grade. Was placed in the class by the school. Has gotten As in math ever since. Does not compete in math competitions. DC is an athlete and focus time there.

Which district/school was this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC will be taking AP Calc as 9th grader. They plans on taking AP stats at the high school, then continute to take higher math classes at the CC for 11th and 12th grade. I remember seeing that 1/3 of Princeton students took a similar path.

The upside is hopefully stand out for top colleges.

The downside is taking classes off campus and not in high school enviroment.

Is the net result that a student stands out enough that it worth the detriment?

This is ridiculous. Your DC is obviously very smart but this seems unnecessary.
College acceptances are a crap shoot. Your kid could give up their lives to study and not get into any of their dream schools.
My point is only that kids should not make every decision in high school because they worry what colleges will think. Yes he should challenge himself but let him live a normal life.
Colleges won't necessarily think he's better than other applicants who tool AP Calc later on. Find a hook and develop that. Your DC academics are going to be great no matter what.

Spot on. My kid did took Calc BC in 10th and then advanced math classes because they love math. Some sort of hook for college admissions was never a consideration. And good thing since it certainly was no golden ticket. The kid on the crew team got that.

Same for mine, but I think the post mvc classes did help her express her math interest to admissions, since she didn't do competitions. She is a math major at a T10 now.

Did your kid do any math major type math? Weird to want to be a math major but only do the school-standard engineering-style math in HS.

?? Just because she didn't want to do competitions, she's "school standard?" 🙄
She took mvc/diffeQ, linear, discrete and complex in HS. Enough for you? Even if she didn't, you can pursue a math major from any tier. There's nothing that says you have to advance super early. But, in the case of mine, doing Calc in 10th allowed her to explore in 12th.

But, we've gotten away from OP's original question. There's no reason to push for Calc in 9th. 10th gives a chance to dabble in classes like linear, 11th still allows for mvc, 12th is fine too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. It might actually signal that the parent is driving the bus on math enrichment. No reason a kid should take Calc before 10th. Otherwise, not really enough lower tier college math courses to take to fill out 4 years if math.

lol. You clearly have no clue. Look at some degree major requirements or department policies to get an idea. You can also repeat classes or place directly into more advanced classes.

Actually, I know the curricula very well. You probably didn't understand what I was saying, or just have a unique blend of arrogance and ignorance.

My kid is a math major at a T10 (decided between 2 T10 and some other top schools, so checked curricula with departments at all) and fulfilled all the math base tier requirements in HS. Top colleges may let you use college level work in HS to place out if lower tier or pre req classes, but they won't for upper tier, so if someone took AP Calc in 9th, they may run out of those base classes. It also won't look any more impressive.

And, there is nothing super special about placing out. Some like to retake. Mine went to a magnet HS with incredible math depth and wanted the placement. Was the right choice for her.

Can you give a specific example on how a kid taking Calculus in 9th would run out of classes to take either in high school or in college? The assumption is that they can access introductory level classes at the local community college, and they could also retake some in college if they wish to.

PP here. If multi/diffeq 10th, linear/elective 11th, they could try to add discrete for 12th, but that is a semester. Or possibly logic or complex if school offers, but these wouldn't get much and may not fill the gap. The ones that can help with placement are Calc, multi, diffeq, linear. We did not see any real options to place out of other classes. I suppose those could be used to help with narrative. My kid (BC in 10th) took linear, discrete and complex in 12th. It would have gained her nothing to take BC in 9th, and she might have had a semester without a math or have to scramble to fill at cc.

The OPs student planed to take Calculus in 9th and AP statistics in 10. So Multi and LA in 11th, then Diff Eq and Discrete in 12th.

You don’t run out of classes, no need to take the AB+BC sequence. Another poster mentioned that CCs also have independent study that could substitute for a class.

Sure you coukd do that, but I don't view AP Stats as a math class in the vein of the others. I also don't think it is a good idea to take a year between Calc and multi. My point was that doing Calc in 9th gets you no edge. Stats does not offer an edge or contribute to math reqs (even if you can get credit), and it might feel like a decrease in rigor.

It really depends what the student wants to take besides math, but it makes more sense to take AP statistics before multivariable, which might be useful only if planning to take university level electromagnetism and thermodynamics. I wouldn’t count AP Physics C EM in that category.

Statistics will give exposure to areas that are not typically covered in high school, like counting and probability, essentially the first semester of the class, and it will help with science classes as well. It has its own issues, but in my view the right time to take Statistics is after Calculus BC. Often you hear that Statistics is not rigorous, I strongly disagree with this, it comes from either ignorance or from experiencing poor teaching in high schools.

It's not poor teaching, poor teaching would be using calculus in an algebra based class. Imagine if the AP Physics 1 teacher started pulling out derivatives and integrals to make it more rigorous to the bewildered 9th and 10th graders. The best thing to do is to take a calculus-based probability and statistics class, which you won't find in highschool.

Most community colleges don’t offer calculus based statistics. You’re arguing that if taking calculus early there won’t be enough classes to take, but don’t recommend statistics because it’s not calculus based.
You are actually using calculus in “algebra based” statistics class virtually every time you calculate any probability, but use a calculator to do the operation. If you want to understand the contents better, take statistics after calculus, it doesn’t mean it’s calculus based, it’s just the material makes a lot more sense.

PP here. I wasn't arguing that taking calculus early would lead to there being not enough courses to take.

No one uses calculus in AP statistics any more than the kids in AP Physics 1 memorizing and recalling the kinematics formulas are using calculus. It's just memorize and apply. If the teacher went into the calculus-based derivations, that would be bad teaching as most of the students haven't taken calculus yet (and even the ones who have rarely care about the derivations, and it's not on the AP exam), so virtually all teachers don't do that.

The kid doing Calculus in 9th would absolutely care about how things are derived and understanding fundamentals, they are not just going to memorize and apply.

This is exactly why AP statistics would be a poor fit, especially when compared to calculus-based university statistics. Statistics is a subject that deserves much more than AP stats + a few hours on YouTube and Wikipedia.

Then your recommendation is to not do any statistics unless it’s calculus based. Most high school students don’t have access to that course so they need to do with AP Statistics or dual enrollment statistics. Both are more useful than multivariable in my view. You can supplement the course with other materials to get a better understanding of the contents.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:DC will be taking AP Calc as 9th grader. They plans on taking AP stats at the high school, then continute to take higher math classes at the CC for 11th and 12th grade. I remember seeing that 1/3 of Princeton students took a similar path.

The upside is hopefully stand out for top colleges.

The downside is taking classes off campus and not in high school enviroment.

Is the net result that a student stands out enough that it worth the detriment?

This is ridiculous. Your DC is obviously very smart but this seems unnecessary.
College acceptances are a crap shoot. Your kid could give up their lives to study and not get into any of their dream schools.
My point is only that kids should not make every decision in high school because they worry what colleges will think. Yes he should challenge himself but let him live a normal life.
Colleges won't necessarily think he's better than other applicants who tool AP Calc later on. Find a hook and develop that. Your DC academics are going to be great no matter what.

Spot on. My kid did took Calc BC in 10th and then advanced math classes because they love math. Some sort of hook for college admissions was never a consideration. And good thing since it certainly was no golden ticket. The kid on the crew team got that.

Same for mine, but I think the post mvc classes did help her express her math interest to admissions, since she didn't do competitions. She is a math major at a T10 now.

Did your kid do any math major type math? Weird to want to be a math major but only do the school-standard engineering-style math in HS.

?? Just because she didn't want to do competitions, she's "school standard?" 🙄
She took mvc/diffeQ, linear, discrete and complex in HS. Enough for you? Even if she didn't, you can pursue a math major from any tier. There's nothing that says you have to advance super early. But, in the case of mine, doing Calc in 10th allowed her to explore in 12th.

But, we've gotten away from OP's original question. There's no reason to push for Calc in 9th. 10th gives a chance to dabble in classes like linear, 11th still allows for mvc, 12th is fine too.

+1
The obsession of one poster with math competition is misguided.

Just because someone’s kid is doing competitions, it doesn’t mean it the best extracurricular, there are a many other things a student could do, research, internship, a job clubs, tutoring etc.

For college admissions, competition may work for very few, maybe 100 ish MOP students, but how many math majors is a university looking for? For the vast majority of students, doing competitions to improve admissions will not work. Much better to find your interest and develop it organically through extracurriculars.

You can look through what universities like MIT etc are looking for. They want smart community involved students that want to change the world and took some small steps in that direction while in high school. Doing problems sets in your room for hours doesn’t fit that profile well.