Think twice before hiring an advocate…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We did not hire an advocate and the school screwed my child.
I only found out from talking to neighbors the gap in services that my child was getting vs similar profile student who parent's went to the meeting with an advocate.
My child had 60 minutes of reading intervention a week and was 2 years behind grade level. Same school - same grade - class mate 1 year behind and was getting 150 minutes a week. When I had tried to make a case that I thought more was needed they told me it was the most they could provide.

Parents bring advocates because they have heard these stories. There is no trust in the process because the schools have not delivered FAPE. I could see on the teachers faces and in their body language that they wanted to say more - but they would not cross the school director of special education.

Why can't you do the extra reading intervention for your child? I know that question is forbidden here, but seriously, an extra 90 minutes a week I'd just do it myself and not bother with the hassle of working the school system.

I am not qualified to deliver OG training.
and why should my neighbor's kid in the same school get the extra 90 minutes a week because they had an advocate go to their IEP meeting and we be expected to pay an outside tutor for this?

You don’t know the details of the neighbors child IEP, his diagnostics etc. maybe you got that information from the parent, but those details can be very unreliable, people can exaggerate, be defensive, there’s misinterpretation, etc.

[Anonymous]

[list]

Anonymous wrote:Parents should really organize around this. These are simple fixes that could be passed at the state level and make the lives of so many kids and teachers better

Simple, cheap, and effective: pick two.

I don't know what the simple fix here. It's obvious that there's a need for more resources and staff, but that doesn't come easily.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know that many of you have had negative experiences, and I’m truly sorry about that. As a special education teacher, I have had some students with advocates that were ridiculous. We had multiple meetings where the advocate wanted to argue over every word. It should not take four meetings to finalize an IEP, especially when the school and parent were in agreement. I’ve worked with several advocates who got into the field because of their own child’s needs, and they seemed to think that every child needed what their kid did.

Some advocates have been professional and reasonable, and if you need one, I hope you get one of those.

Wording in the IEPs is important, sometimes critical. If you wrote a better IEP maybe it wouldn't take four meetings. Don't fault the advocate for fixing the language.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these parents seem to want teachers to quit and then what? Probably sue the school districts even though it’s not their fault. The fault lies with a federal law that isn’t accompanied by money. There is no way for districts to meet what parents demand these days; the system is irrevocable broken.

OP here. I think my real point got lost in my lab frustration yesterday. But this is the real truth- all students will now be getting a lot less without these two teachers, and it’s not that easy to replace them (we already have one gen ed vacancy that we have been completely unable to fill). If you want us to leave and find a job where we are respected, then fine. We might. I am just so sick of being painted like the enemy when all I want is to help kids achieve.

Then help them! And don't minimize the needs of a child who "isn't that far below grade level."

[Anonymous]

I think it's more about hiring GOOD advocates or lawyers. And good doesn't mean angry. These aren't murder cases. We're all on the same team. I've been GRILLED by lawyers picking apart the wording of my goals. Not the actual goals but minute details that don't actually change anything. Even in the moment I knew they were just trying to collect billable hours. I agreed to their changes early on (becuase it didn't actually affect anything for the kid or the staff) and it still took an hour for them to grill me on 3 objectives. The meeting itself was 6 hours.

This is what causes frustration in the staff. A reasonable person would have had a normal adult conversation about some wording and come to some agreement. But they made me feel like a criminal on trial.

I'm all for advocates and lawyers when they're actually needed. Not to bully teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
This is what causes frustration in the staff. A reasonable person would have had a normal adult conversation about some wording and come to some agreement. But they made me feel like a criminal on trial.

And yet, I've absolutely had school staff refuse to even consider changes to text. They didn't cross-examine me- they were just very direct that if I wanted any changes I'd need to try a due process complaint.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know that many of you have had negative experiences, and I’m truly sorry about that. As a special education teacher, I have had some students with advocates that were ridiculous. We had multiple meetings where the advocate wanted to argue over every word. It should not take four meetings to finalize an IEP, especially when the school and parent were in agreement. I’ve worked with several advocates who got into the field because of their own child’s needs, and they seemed to think that every child needed what their kid did.

Some advocates have been professional and reasonable, and if you need one, I hope you get one of those.

Wording in the IEPs is important, sometimes critical. If you wrote a better IEP maybe it wouldn't take four meetings. Don't fault the advocate for fixing the language.

Has it occurred to you that advocates are not always right? Some are great, and some are less so. Many have never been in a classroom or had any special education experience. While they can be valuable resources, they can sometimes be misguided (while also being antagonistic).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's more about hiring GOOD advocates or lawyers. And good doesn't mean angry. These aren't murder cases. We're all on the same team. I've been GRILLED by lawyers picking apart the wording of my goals. Not the actual goals but minute details that don't actually change anything. Even in the moment I knew they were just trying to collect billable hours. I agreed to their changes early on (becuase it didn't actually affect anything for the kid or the staff) and it still took an hour for them to grill me on 3 objectives. The meeting itself was 6 hours.

This is what causes frustration in the staff. A reasonable person would have had a normal adult conversation about some wording and come to some agreement. But they made me feel like a criminal on trial.

I'm all for advocates and lawyers when they're actually needed. Not to bully teachers.

THIS! A good advocate/lawyer understands that they aren't the special education teacher. They may be experts in the legalities of special education, but that doesn't mean they know how to write a good IEP goal or develop strong SDIs.

[Anonymous]

I think OP's friend isn't really a friend of special needs children. I can't imagine leaving my profession over an IEP meeting that happens once or twice a year. Not a huge loss to the special education committee. I've noticed our school always pulls the teacher least interested in special ed to do these meetings so they can pretend the teachers aren't capable. It's a tactic. They are never the class my child struggles the most with. Usually the single male guy that looks like a deer with the headlights just sitting back hoping not to speak.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these parents seem to want teachers to quit and then what? Probably sue the school districts even though it’s not their fault. The fault lies with a federal law that isn’t accompanied by money. There is no way for districts to meet what parents demand these days; the system is irrevocable broken.

OP here. I think my real point got lost in my lab frustration yesterday. But this is the real truth- all students will now be getting a lot less without these two teachers, and it’s not that easy to replace them (we already have one gen ed vacancy that we have been completely unable to fill). If you want us to leave and find a job where we are respected, then fine. We might. I am just so sick of being painted like the enemy when all I want is to help kids achieve.

Nobody wants teachers to quit. We do want you to follow the law.

Don't take it out on the teachers. Take it out on the system that doesn't provide anywhere close to the resources needed.

The only way to take it “ out on the system” is to pursue a child’s legal right to an education and file an ocr complaint or due process when those rights are infringed upon. Most parents don’t have that knowledge, but guess who does, advocates and attorneys. No one wants an adversarial relationship with a school/ principal/ teacher but when your child is denied an appropriate education bc they have a disability, parents are going to have feelings about that.

What the OP tried to explain, and I think has gone missing is that when you do the above, you are taking it out on the teacher. I am not a SPED teacher but work closely with that department at my school. We have 3 SPED teachers per our district budget for grades k-5. In 5th alone we have multiple students with 15+hrs per week of pull out service. In our 3rd grade we had 4 new students come in with IEPs, making that teachers caseload upwards of 15.
Now, you don't have to be a mathematician to understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE for 3 people to fulfill all those hours. This is a systemic issue.
When you are then calling for more meetings to rail at the system, you are taking those teachers away from the precious, finite hours they have to service their students.

I get it. IDEA is an unfunded mandate and absolutely needs to be revamped. However your rebelling against the machine is only hurting the people on the bottom level. You're not affecting real change, unless you consider the current teacher shortage

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these parents seem to want teachers to quit and then what? Probably sue the school districts even though it’s not their fault. The fault lies with a federal law that isn’t accompanied by money. There is no way for districts to meet what parents demand these days; the system is irrevocable broken.

OP here. I think my real point got lost in my lab frustration yesterday. But this is the real truth- all students will now be getting a lot less without these two teachers, and it’s not that easy to replace them (we already have one gen ed vacancy that we have been completely unable to fill). If you want us to leave and find a job where we are respected, then fine. We might. I am just so sick of being painted like the enemy when all I want is to help kids achieve.

Nobody wants teachers to quit. We do want you to follow the law.

Don't take it out on the teachers. Take it out on the system that doesn't provide anywhere close to the resources needed.

The only way to take it “ out on the system” is to pursue a child’s legal right to an education and file an ocr complaint or due process when those rights are infringed upon. Most parents don’t have that knowledge, but guess who does, advocates and attorneys. No one wants an adversarial relationship with a school/ principal/ teacher but when your child is denied an appropriate education bc they have a disability, parents are going to have feelings about that.

What the OP tried to explain, and I think has gone missing is that when you do the above, you are taking it out on the teacher. I am not a SPED teacher but work closely with that department at my school. We have 3 SPED teachers per our district budget for grades k-5. In 5th alone we have multiple students with 15+hrs per week of pull out service. In our 3rd grade we had 4 new students come in with IEPs, making that teachers caseload upwards of 15.
Now, you don't have to be a mathematician to understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE for 3 people to fulfill all those hours. This is a systemic issue.
When you are then calling for more meetings to rail at the system, you are taking those teachers away from the precious, finite hours they have to service their students.

I get it. IDEA is an unfunded mandate and absolutely needs to be revamped. However your rebelling against the machine is only hurting the people on the bottom level. You're not affecting real change, unless you consider the current teacher shortage

*my kid* is the one on the “bottom level.” ps they do the pull-outs in small groups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these parents seem to want teachers to quit and then what? Probably sue the school districts even though it’s not their fault. The fault lies with a federal law that isn’t accompanied by money. There is no way for districts to meet what parents demand these days; the system is irrevocable broken.

OP here. I think my real point got lost in my lab frustration yesterday. But this is the real truth- all students will now be getting a lot less without these two teachers, and it’s not that easy to replace them (we already have one gen ed vacancy that we have been completely unable to fill). If you want us to leave and find a job where we are respected, then fine. We might. I am just so sick of being painted like the enemy when all I want is to help kids achieve.

Nobody wants teachers to quit. We do want you to follow the law.

Don't take it out on the teachers. Take it out on the system that doesn't provide anywhere close to the resources needed.

The only way to take it “ out on the system” is to pursue a child’s legal right to an education and file an ocr complaint or due process when those rights are infringed upon. Most parents don’t have that knowledge, but guess who does, advocates and attorneys. No one wants an adversarial relationship with a school/ principal/ teacher but when your child is denied an appropriate education bc they have a disability, parents are going to have feelings about that.

What the OP tried to explain, and I think has gone missing is that when you do the above, you are taking it out on the teacher. I am not a SPED teacher but work closely with that department at my school. We have 3 SPED teachers per our district budget for grades k-5. In 5th alone we have multiple students with 15+hrs per week of pull out service. In our 3rd grade we had 4 new students come in with IEPs, making that teachers caseload upwards of 15.
Now, you don't have to be a mathematician to understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE for 3 people to fulfill all those hours. This is a systemic issue.
When you are then calling for more meetings to rail at the system, you are taking those teachers away from the precious, finite hours they have to service their students.

I get it. IDEA is an unfunded mandate and absolutely needs to be revamped. However your rebelling against the machine is only hurting the people on the bottom level. You're not affecting real change, unless you consider the current teacher shortage

*my kid* is the one on the “bottom level.” ps they do the pull-outs in small groups.

Sometimes yes, but often students are working toward different goals, or have behavior components of their IEP. Please don't PS me. I'm very familiar with small group, co teaching, and any other models for students with IEPs or just Gen Ed students who need support, thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these parents seem to want teachers to quit and then what? Probably sue the school districts even though it’s not their fault. The fault lies with a federal law that isn’t accompanied by money. There is no way for districts to meet what parents demand these days; the system is irrevocable broken.

OP here. I think my real point got lost in my lab frustration yesterday. But this is the real truth- all students will now be getting a lot less without these two teachers, and it’s not that easy to replace them (we already have one gen ed vacancy that we have been completely unable to fill). If you want us to leave and find a job where we are respected, then fine. We might. I am just so sick of being painted like the enemy when all I want is to help kids achieve.

Nobody wants teachers to quit. We do want you to follow the law.

Don't take it out on the teachers. Take it out on the system that doesn't provide anywhere close to the resources needed.

The only way to take it “ out on the system” is to pursue a child’s legal right to an education and file an ocr complaint or due process when those rights are infringed upon. Most parents don’t have that knowledge, but guess who does, advocates and attorneys. No one wants an adversarial relationship with a school/ principal/ teacher but when your child is denied an appropriate education bc they have a disability, parents are going to have feelings about that.

What the OP tried to explain, and I think has gone missing is that when you do the above, you are taking it out on the teacher. I am not a SPED teacher but work closely with that department at my school. We have 3 SPED teachers per our district budget for grades k-5. In 5th alone we have multiple students with 15+hrs per week of pull out service. In our 3rd grade we had 4 new students come in with IEPs, making that teachers caseload upwards of 15.
Now, you don't have to be a mathematician to understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE for 3 people to fulfill all those hours. This is a systemic issue.
When you are then calling for more meetings to rail at the system, you are taking those teachers away from the precious, finite hours they have to service their students.

I get it. IDEA is an unfunded mandate and absolutely needs to be revamped. However your rebelling against the machine is only hurting the people on the bottom level. You're not affecting real change, unless you consider the current teacher shortage

I disagree with you, we are no more taking it out of the teachers than teachers are taking it out on the kids by providing minimal services. The only way it is going to change is if it starts to cost districts more either monetarily or by public perception. The way you do that is hold them to standards and make them accountable for the standards.
It’s really frustrating to hear so many people, who I assume work in schools, basically state we should just be happy to receive something for our kids and not ask for too much. I’m fairly certain that wouldn’t be said to neurotypical children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these parents seem to want teachers to quit and then what? Probably sue the school districts even though it’s not their fault. The fault lies with a federal law that isn’t accompanied by money. There is no way for districts to meet what parents demand these days; the system is irrevocable broken.

OP here. I think my real point got lost in my lab frustration yesterday. But this is the real truth- all students will now be getting a lot less without these two teachers, and it’s not that easy to replace them (we already have one gen ed vacancy that we have been completely unable to fill). If you want us to leave and find a job where we are respected, then fine. We might. I am just so sick of being painted like the enemy when all I want is to help kids achieve.

Nobody wants teachers to quit. We do want you to follow the law.

Don't take it out on the teachers. Take it out on the system that doesn't provide anywhere close to the resources needed.

The only way to take it “ out on the system” is to pursue a child’s legal right to an education and file an ocr complaint or due process when those rights are infringed upon. Most parents don’t have that knowledge, but guess who does, advocates and attorneys. No one wants an adversarial relationship with a school/ principal/ teacher but when your child is denied an appropriate education bc they have a disability, parents are going to have feelings about that.

What the OP tried to explain, and I think has gone missing is that when you do the above, you are taking it out on the teacher. I am not a SPED teacher but work closely with that department at my school. We have 3 SPED teachers per our district budget for grades k-5. In 5th alone we have multiple students with 15+hrs per week of pull out service. In our 3rd grade we had 4 new students come in with IEPs, making that teachers caseload upwards of 15.
Now, you don't have to be a mathematician to understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE for 3 people to fulfill all those hours. This is a systemic issue.
When you are then calling for more meetings to rail at the system, you are taking those teachers away from the precious, finite hours they have to service their students.

I get it. IDEA is an unfunded mandate and absolutely needs to be revamped. However your rebelling against the machine is only hurting the people on the bottom level. You're not affecting real change, unless you consider the current teacher shortage

I disagree with you, we are no more taking it out of the teachers than teachers are taking it out on the kids by providing minimal services. The only way it is going to change is if it starts to cost districts more either monetarily or by public perception. The way you do that is hold them to standards and make them accountable for the standards.
It’s really frustrating to hear so many people, who I assume work in schools, basically state we should just be happy to receive something for our kids and not ask for too much. I’m fairly certain that wouldn’t be said to neurotypical children.

I promise you I'm not saying that. I'm saying that we are not the people in control of what you want. Stop calling meetings with us if you want to affect change. Meet with principals, district superintendents, people in central office in charge of SPED.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these parents seem to want teachers to quit and then what? Probably sue the school districts even though it’s not their fault. The fault lies with a federal law that isn’t accompanied by money. There is no way for districts to meet what parents demand these days; the system is irrevocable broken.

OP here. I think my real point got lost in my lab frustration yesterday. But this is the real truth- all students will now be getting a lot less without these two teachers, and it’s not that easy to replace them (we already have one gen ed vacancy that we have been completely unable to fill). If you want us to leave and find a job where we are respected, then fine. We might. I am just so sick of being painted like the enemy when all I want is to help kids achieve.

Nobody wants teachers to quit. We do want you to follow the law.

Don't take it out on the teachers. Take it out on the system that doesn't provide anywhere close to the resources needed.

The only way to take it “ out on the system” is to pursue a child’s legal right to an education and file an ocr complaint or due process when those rights are infringed upon. Most parents don’t have that knowledge, but guess who does, advocates and attorneys. No one wants an adversarial relationship with a school/ principal/ teacher but when your child is denied an appropriate education bc they have a disability, parents are going to have feelings about that.

What the OP tried to explain, and I think has gone missing is that when you do the above, you are taking it out on the teacher. I am not a SPED teacher but work closely with that department at my school. We have 3 SPED teachers per our district budget for grades k-5. In 5th alone we have multiple students with 15+hrs per week of pull out service. In our 3rd grade we had 4 new students come in with IEPs, making that teachers caseload upwards of 15.
Now, you don't have to be a mathematician to understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE for 3 people to fulfill all those hours. This is a systemic issue.
When you are then calling for more meetings to rail at the system, you are taking those teachers away from the precious, finite hours they have to service their students.

I get it. IDEA is an unfunded mandate and absolutely needs to be revamped. However your rebelling against the machine is only hurting the people on the bottom level. You're not affecting real change, unless you consider the current teacher shortage

I disagree with you, we are no more taking it out of the teachers than teachers are taking it out on the kids by providing minimal services. The only way it is going to change is if it starts to cost districts more either monetarily or by public perception. The way you do that is hold them to standards and make them accountable for the standards.
It’s really frustrating to hear so many people, who I assume work in schools, basically state we should just be happy to receive something for our kids and not ask for too much. I’m fairly certain that wouldn’t be said to neurotypical children.

I promise you I'm not saying that. I'm saying that we are not the people in control of what you want. Stop calling meetings with us if you want to affect change. Meet with principals, district superintendents, people in central office in charge of SPED.

NP. You mean the principal who told me in the first IEP meeting (transitioning from PEP) that they didn't have the staff or the time to provide my kindergartner the services that were in the IEP? The principal who told me and the PEP team she knew we were used to my child being "coddled" like a "baby bird", but that he would be just fine in kindergarten? That one?

I lawyered up and it was miraculous what was suddenly possible. We ended up getting a private placement without ever having to file due process. No way that would have happened without the attorney and advocate. Not with that principal.