WE WANT SCHOOL WIDE SOL SCORES

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think TJ students should be passing at 100%. I don't understand why they are not. Maybe, a few on English because of ESOL--but the idea of TJ was that they learn quickly and easily.

Um, they pretty much are. You are trolling. Their pass rates are exceptionally high. Pass advanced rates for math and science are almost double or more what you see at other top schools. Not good enough? But as noted, to understand why pass advanced scores aren't higher comes down to who is actually taking the tests. Many aren't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is all very informative, thank you. I had no idea. But I'm still wondering why there would be different rates of participation from pre to post pandemic for different racial groups. Because if we assume the massive variation is as you describe (in who takes what and when), if such patterns don't change systematically by school, you can still some get a sense of which school is doing better. Of course that's a big IF and I'm curious about how differences in patterns of test taking could affect how schools look when compared to one another. As noted earlier, I saw a pattern in some of the so-called top schools with the decline is test-taking among Asians from 2018/19 to 2022/23 being less than the decline among White students. Why would that be? It does seem to correlate with the change or lackthereof in test scores.

The decision to have students only take one EOC SOL in high school stemmed from the changes in accreditation that Virginia made in 2017. Students taking Algebra 1 in 7th grade were unaffected by this change because they take the Algebra 1 SOL in 7th grade, Geometry 8th grade, and Algebra 2 in 9th grade. Students taking Algebra 1 in 8th grade would take that SOL and then Geometry SOL in 9th grade and now stop. Students taking Algebra 1 in 9th grade would only take that SOL and then stop, assuming they passed. Thus, maybe the patterns you're noticing stem from differences in the demographic shares of accelerated math.

Basically for some schools there's a pattern where the #of Asian test takers rebounds more than White, and this relates to SOL pass advanced scores. Not so surprising given we know the Asian students generally perform better, but it's still hard to understand is why you'd see this differential rebounding, by demographics, in # of test takers. Langely in particular sees a major rebound in Asian test takers of math SOL from 2018 to 2022 (170 to 151) but much less so for White test takers (528 to 302), and this undoubtedly affects how Langley looks in terms of recovery from pandemic (pass advanced rate in 2018/19 is 31 and pass advanced rate in 2022/23 is 26). Contrast with TJ, with rebound of math SOL test takers from 392 to 217 for Asians and 145 to 104 for White students, the pass advanced rate went from 91 in 2018/19 to 53 in 2022/23. TJ looks worse than Langley but this is no doubt in part due to changes in the demographic make up of who is taking the tests.

In terms of why the change in demographic makeup of test takers, maybe this can be explained as you suggested in terms of students at some schools not needing to take the test which makes the scores lower (at TJ?) or could be more sinister if schools want their scores to look better they might encourage students from specific groups to take the tests...but maybe that's unlikely? I'm not an insider so no idea how plausible that is.

Either way, when the underlying demographics of who is taking the tests changes so dramatically, the scores are going to change a lot. I don't think it means the scores are useless but there's certainly a lot of noise and changes from pre to post pandemic are very difficult if not impossible to interpret.

There have also been changes in math course enrollment for entering TJ students. Previously, more than 90% of TJ students had taken Algebra 1 by 7th grade. Now, more TJ students have taken Algebra 1 in 8th grade so you would likely see some change in the number of students taking the various SOLs from that factor as well.

Yes, but the issue isn't so much the overall rate they are taking SOLs but why there might be group differences in who is taking the tests and changes in test-taking rates by group since 2018 (i.e., Why is it that in some, but not all, schools White students are still taking SOL tests much less than they did in 2018 but we don't see the same pattern for Asian students, which of course inflates the schools' scores?)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think TJ students should be passing at 100%. I don't understand why they are not. Maybe, a few on English because of ESOL--but the idea of TJ was that they learn quickly and easily.

Um, they pretty much are. You are trolling. Their pass rates are exceptionally high. Pass advanced rates for math and science are almost double or more what you see at other top schools. Not good enough? But as noted, to understand why pass advanced scores aren't higher comes down to who is actually taking the tests. Many aren't.

You have to get to the details I think.

TJ 9th graders scored a lower pass advanced rate in geometry than nearly every middle school in the county. These would be the 30% of kids that came in with only Algebra.

I guess I’m more surprised that by the end of the freshman year at the one of the best STEM schools in the country, they couldn’t muster better scores than any number of other 8th grade cohorts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think TJ students should be passing at 100%. I don't understand why they are not. Maybe, a few on English because of ESOL--but the idea of TJ was that they learn quickly and easily.

Um, they pretty much are. You are trolling. Their pass rates are exceptionally high. Pass advanced rates for math and science are almost double or more what you see at other top schools. Not good enough? But as noted, to understand why pass advanced scores aren't higher comes down to who is actually taking the tests. Many aren't.

You have to get to the details I think.

TJ 9th graders scored a lower pass advanced rate in geometry than nearly every middle school in the county. These would be the 30% of kids that came in with only Algebra.

I guess I’m more surprised that by the end of the freshman year at the one of the best STEM schools in the country, they couldn’t muster better scores than any number of other 8th grade cohorts.

The math department at TJ is notorious. This seems to reflect that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think TJ students should be passing at 100%. I don't understand why they are not. Maybe, a few on English because of ESOL--but the idea of TJ was that they learn quickly and easily.

Um, they pretty much are. You are trolling. Their pass rates are exceptionally high. Pass advanced rates for math and science are almost double or more what you see at other top schools. Not good enough? But as noted, to understand why pass advanced scores aren't higher comes down to who is actually taking the tests. Many aren't.

You have to get to the details I think.

TJ 9th graders scored a lower pass advanced rate in geometry than nearly every middle school in the county. These would be the 30% of kids that came in with only Algebra.

I guess I’m more surprised that by the end of the freshman year at the one of the best STEM schools in the country, they couldn’t muster better scores than any number of other 8th grade cohorts.

The math department at TJ is notorious. This seems to reflect that.

The math department doesn’t create or grade SOLs. And their previous SOL rates were much much better.

It really doesn’t make sense for this freshman class to score so poorly on the geometry SOL. Previous years Alg II pass advanced rates were nearly double this freshman classes geo scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think TJ students should be passing at 100%. I don't understand why they are not. Maybe, a few on English because of ESOL--but the idea of TJ was that they learn quickly and easily.

Um, they pretty much are. You are trolling. Their pass rates are exceptionally high. Pass advanced rates for math and science are almost double or more what you see at other top schools. Not good enough? But as noted, to understand why pass advanced scores aren't higher comes down to who is actually taking the tests. Many aren't.

You have to get to the details I think.

TJ 9th graders scored a lower pass advanced rate in geometry than nearly every middle school in the county. These would be the 30% of kids that came in with only Algebra.

I guess I’m more surprised that by the end of the freshman year at the one of the best STEM schools in the country, they couldn’t muster better scores than any number of other 8th grade cohorts.

The math department at TJ is notorious. This seems to reflect that.

The math department doesn’t create or grade SOLs. And their previous SOL rates were much much better.

It really doesn’t make sense for this freshman class to score so poorly on the geometry SOL. Previous years Alg II pass advanced rates were nearly double this freshman classes geo scores.

Look back through the thread. I think it's selection effects. Not everyone taking the test and the ones who are may not be the strongest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think TJ students should be passing at 100%. I don't understand why they are not. Maybe, a few on English because of ESOL--but the idea of TJ was that they learn quickly and easily.

Um, they pretty much are. You are trolling. Their pass rates are exceptionally high. Pass advanced rates for math and science are almost double or more what you see at other top schools. Not good enough? But as noted, to understand why pass advanced scores aren't higher comes down to who is actually taking the tests. Many aren't.

You have to get to the details I think.

TJ 9th graders scored a lower pass advanced rate in geometry than nearly every middle school in the county. These would be the 30% of kids that came in with only Algebra.

I guess I’m more surprised that by the end of the freshman year at the one of the best STEM schools in the country, they couldn’t muster better scores than any number of other 8th grade cohorts.

The math department at TJ is notorious. This seems to reflect that.

The math department doesn’t create or grade SOLs. And their previous SOL rates were much much better.

It really doesn’t make sense for this freshman class to score so poorly on the geometry SOL. Previous years Alg II pass advanced rates were nearly double this freshman classes geo scores.

The math department teaches math. The SOL test is supposed to test how well teachers teach. And the TJ math department is infamous for not teaching math and expecting the students to figure it out for themselves. This works for students who have been through Aops or RSM for years and already know the subject but not so well for regular students who come to class ready to learn new material.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think TJ students should be passing at 100%. I don't understand why they are not. Maybe, a few on English because of ESOL--but the idea of TJ was that they learn quickly and easily.

Um, they pretty much are. You are trolling. Their pass rates are exceptionally high. Pass advanced rates for math and science are almost double or more what you see at other top schools. Not good enough? But as noted, to understand why pass advanced scores aren't higher comes down to who is actually taking the tests. Many aren't.

You have to get to the details I think.

TJ 9th graders scored a lower pass advanced rate in geometry than nearly every middle school in the county. These would be the 30% of kids that came in with only Algebra.

I guess I’m more surprised that by the end of the freshman year at the one of the best STEM schools in the country, they couldn’t muster better scores than any number of other 8th grade cohorts.

The math department at TJ is notorious. This seems to reflect that.

The math department doesn’t create or grade SOLs. And their previous SOL rates were much much better.

It really doesn’t make sense for this freshman class to score so poorly on the geometry SOL. Previous years Alg II pass advanced rates were nearly double this freshman classes geo scores.

Look back through the thread. I think it's selection effects. Not everyone taking the test and the ones who are may not be the strongest.

That’s not correct. Nearly every geometry student took the geometry SOL. 120 of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think TJ students should be passing at 100%. I don't understand why they are not. Maybe, a few on English because of ESOL--but the idea of TJ was that they learn quickly and easily.

Um, they pretty much are. You are trolling. Their pass rates are exceptionally high. Pass advanced rates for math and science are almost double or more what you see at other top schools. Not good enough? But as noted, to understand why pass advanced scores aren't higher comes down to who is actually taking the tests. Many aren't.

You have to get to the details I think.

TJ 9th graders scored a lower pass advanced rate in geometry than nearly every middle school in the county. These would be the 30% of kids that came in with only Algebra.

I guess I’m more surprised that by the end of the freshman year at the one of the best STEM schools in the country, they couldn’t muster better scores than any number of other 8th grade cohorts.

The math department at TJ is notorious. This seems to reflect that.

The math department doesn’t create or grade SOLs. And their previous SOL rates were much much better.

It really doesn’t make sense for this freshman class to score so poorly on the geometry SOL. Previous years Alg II pass advanced rates were nearly double this freshman classes geo scores.

The math department teaches math. The SOL test is supposed to test how well teachers teach. And the TJ math department is infamous for not teaching math and expecting the students to figure it out for themselves. This works for students who have been through Aops or RSM for years and already know the subject but not so well for regular students who come to class ready to learn new material.

That may very well be the case. The thread took a turn with some kind of spiking the football about TJ SOL scores.

Upon closer inspection, the reality is that many of the new students are underperforming against virtually every middle school in the county and in large quantities.

But you may be right that these new students are not prepared for the teaching style of TJ. And that’s OK.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think TJ students should be passing at 100%. I don't understand why they are not. Maybe, a few on English because of ESOL--but the idea of TJ was that they learn quickly and easily.

Um, they pretty much are. You are trolling. Their pass rates are exceptionally high. Pass advanced rates for math and science are almost double or more what you see at other top schools. Not good enough? But as noted, to understand why pass advanced scores aren't higher comes down to who is actually taking the tests. Many aren't.

You have to get to the details I think.

TJ 9th graders scored a lower pass advanced rate in geometry than nearly every middle school in the county. These would be the 30% of kids that came in with only Algebra.

I guess I’m more surprised that by the end of the freshman year at the one of the best STEM schools in the country, they couldn’t muster better scores than any number of other 8th grade cohorts.

The math department at TJ is notorious. This seems to reflect that.

The math department doesn’t create or grade SOLs. And their previous SOL rates were much much better.

It really doesn’t make sense for this freshman class to score so poorly on the geometry SOL. Previous years Alg II pass advanced rates were nearly double this freshman classes geo scores.

Look back through the thread. I think it's selection effects. Not everyone taking the test and the ones who are may not be the strongest.

That’s not correct. Nearly every geometry student took the geometry SOL. 120 of them.

Sorry, I meant that it's not clear that you can compare with previous years if not everyone enrolls in geometry or takes the test.

But if you break the data down by race and economic status, you will see why the scores are down. When you look at White or Asian who are NOT economically disadvantaged, pass rates are 100%, pass advanced are 71 and 64, respectively.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think TJ students should be passing at 100%. I don't understand why they are not. Maybe, a few on English because of ESOL--but the idea of TJ was that they learn quickly and easily.

Um, they pretty much are. You are trolling. Their pass rates are exceptionally high. Pass advanced rates for math and science are almost double or more what you see at other top schools. Not good enough? But as noted, to understand why pass advanced scores aren't higher comes down to who is actually taking the tests. Many aren't.

You have to get to the details I think.

TJ 9th graders scored a lower pass advanced rate in geometry than nearly every middle school in the county. These would be the 30% of kids that came in with only Algebra.

I guess I’m more surprised that by the end of the freshman year at the one of the best STEM schools in the country, they couldn’t muster better scores than any number of other 8th grade cohorts.

The math department at TJ is notorious. This seems to reflect that.

Notorious for what?

[Anonymous]

If you are strictly talking about freshmen taking the Geometry SOL, it's probably because they already got their verified credit for graduation by passing the Algebra 1 SOL in Middle School, and now that they are in high school they have to take one Math SOL for federal participation only. Federal participation doesn't require you to pass the test, only that you take one while in high school for Math... so they have no motivation or care to do well on that or get pass advanced. It's a hoop to jump through.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you are strictly talking about freshmen taking the Geometry SOL, it's probably because they already got their verified credit for graduation by passing the Algebra 1 SOL in Middle School, and now that they are in high school they have to take one Math SOL for federal participation only. Federal participation doesn't require you to pass the test, only that you take one while in high school for Math... so they have no motivation or care to do well on that or get pass advanced. It's a hoop to jump through.

Not sure that works with Algebra II SOL pass advanced rate for freshman at TJ is nearly 20 points higher than freshmen geometry SOL students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you are strictly talking about freshmen taking the Geometry SOL, it's probably because they already got their verified credit for graduation by passing the Algebra 1 SOL in Middle School, and now that they are in high school they have to take one Math SOL for federal participation only. Federal participation doesn't require you to pass the test, only that you take one while in high school for Math... so they have no motivation or care to do well on that or get pass advanced. It's a hoop to jump through.

Wouldn’t that also apply to all the middle schools with much higher pass advanced rates in geometry? They also have an Algebra SOL done but are scoring much higher. I don’t know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you are strictly talking about freshmen taking the Geometry SOL, it's probably because they already got their verified credit for graduation by passing the Algebra 1 SOL in Middle School, and now that they are in high school they have to take one Math SOL for federal participation only. Federal participation doesn't require you to pass the test, only that you take one while in high school for Math... so they have no motivation or care to do well on that or get pass advanced. It's a hoop to jump through.

In 2018-19, the pass advanced share for 9th graders taking Algebra 2 was 93%. No detail provided for Geometry SOL that year because too few students took that test. Wasn't 2018-19 the first year that the changes in VA's standards of accreditation took effect?