Is it typical for elementary to group all IEP kids together in the same class

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Yes, it's very typical to group students with IEPs rather than spreading them across all classes. It's much easier to provide support that way.

This is not ok. Parents need to file complaints when they see this.

Then you better also open your checkbooks because there are only a certain amount of SPED teachers on schools budgets and they aren't able to split themselves into multiple places at once.

If its not okay to group students with IEPs rather than spreading them across all classes, what is your proposed suggestion to deliver service hours? If there are more children with IEPs than there are classes, how else can you manage? At some point, there are multiple children with IEPs in a given classroom.

Nobody is saying that there should be only 1 IEP student in each class. Why do you think anyone is saying that?

Then what is being said? Parents need to file complaints when they see this...this being a grouping of students with IEPs. What is a group then--3, 4, 5? How many students with IEPs make a group?

The title of this thread is: Is it typical for elementary to group all IEP kids together in the same class

That means if there are 20 students with IEPs, theoretically those 20 students would be grouped together in one class. Obviously, that number will be dependent on the number of students with IEPs in any given grade. Is that what "inclusion" means?

That would depend on whether there were also gen-ed students in the class, and what content is taught. I do not believe "inclusion" requires that all classrooms have an equal number of students with IEPs.

What if there are 4 classes and only 3 kids with IEPs? How do you separate them equally?

This thread is entering ridiculous territory.

Yep.
Basically, it is a common and efficient practice to put students in IEPs in one homeroom so that the SPED teacher that is assigned to that grade is able to push in to one class and keep as an inclusive setting. When schools have students with IEPs spread out in multiple classrooms they have no choice but to pull students out for specialized instruction, "excluding them" from the classroom.

Re: Parent complaints. Go ahead. You're wrong and they will go nowhere

Is it common for there to be 4 classes in a grade and only 3 children with IEPs within that grade?

No, that would be rare and would raise red flags that the school is not identifying children who need IEPs.

Ok. There are 3 kids with IEPs and 2 classes. How do you split them?

Wow you really got me there. I was not envisioning a situation where there would be only 3 students with IEPs in a grade, since that would be unusual in MCPS. At that point, grouping them together does not seem like an issue to me. The concern I heard described happening in a school was a class that was all the students with IEPs in that grade, who comprised the majority of the class, with a small number of children without IEPs. I don't know the specific numbers were.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is how it works. Let's say there are 70 students in the grade. About 14 kids have IEP's. They all automatically get put in one classroom regardless of the need. From serious behavioral issues to mild developmental delays. Then, they mix in a few other kids and call it an inclusive classroom. As a parent, you do not have a choice. Your child goes in that classroom as long as they have an IEP. The only way to remove your child from the classroom the next year is to remove the IEP.

We are not talking about 3 kids with IEP's. Generally, the kids are mixed between the classrooms like PP stated and the child goes with the best fit of kids/teacher. This is a good situation for kids with high needs but often the low-needs kids get ignored as the services and help are focused on the higher-needs kids.

Where specifically is this the policy?

[Anonymous]

I can see how putting all the IEP kids in one class may not be in the LRE. Suppose they are all in Language Arts together. All 12 of them in a class size of 24. The reading groups and project teams may have many more challenges because multiple neuro-diverse students are on the same teams and in the same book clubs. The IEP kids only learn from mostly other IEP kids, dealing with focus challenges, dyslexia, dysgraphia, etc. This happens repeatedly across the school year. Then next year the principal does the same thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a 3 yo with what appear to be mild special needs and are zoned for Oakland Terrace ES in MCPS. I have seen some posts on DCUM complaining that IEP kids at this school were segregated from other children into.the same class. We do not have an IEP yet (have requested Child Find screening) but am paranoid if she gets one, this model will not work for her for a few reasons. I thought kids with IEPs should be integrated, not segregated.

They shouldn’t only be in certain classes. It is not Least Restrictive Environment. It is also not fair to the teachers. They are basically treating them as something akin to team taught classes. It is not inclusion.

OP, it's unclear what you want. Are you asking for your child to be the only one in the classroom with an IEP? Because that's not going to happen. There are going to be a bunch of kids with IEPs in the gen-ed classroom and, hopefully, additional staff to meet their needs. It's not possible for one teacher to teach gen-ed and also meet all IEPs, so the other adults have to be present. If that's "team taught", okay, but what's so bad about it?

+1

[Anonymous]

Btw—it does seem like the IEPs are grouped together in one class so then only one Special Ed teacher is needed in one room. I think there’s an argument that it’s not for the best for child development even though it helps the principal with staffing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Btw—it does seem like the IEPs are grouped together in one class so then only one Special Ed teacher is needed in one room. I think there’s an argument that it’s not for the best for child development even though it helps the principal with staffing.

Well yes, but there's no right to "the best".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is how it works. Let's say there are 70 students in the grade. About 14 kids have IEP's. They all automatically get put in one classroom regardless of the need. From serious behavioral issues to mild developmental delays. Then, they mix in a few other kids and call it an inclusive classroom. As a parent, you do not have a choice. Your child goes in that classroom as long as they have an IEP. The only way to remove your child from the classroom the next year is to remove the IEP.

We are not talking about 3 kids with IEP's. Generally, the kids are mixed between the classrooms like PP stated and the child goes with the best fit of kids/teacher. This is a good situation for kids with high needs but often the low-needs kids get ignored as the services and help are focused on the higher-needs kids.

Where specifically is this the policy?

There doesn't have to be a policy for something to happen. There are no laws or regulations against it, the law only guarantees students with IEPs are educated in LRE. It makes no provisions for the number or type of IEPs included in a classroom, and no school system is going to do so because it would mean hiring more Sped teachers, when they can barely find enough to staff their needs now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can see how putting all the IEP kids in one class may not be in the LRE. Suppose they are all in Language Arts together. All 12 of them in a class size of 24. The reading groups and project teams may have many more challenges because multiple neuro-diverse students are on the same teams and in the same book clubs. The IEP kids only learn from mostly other IEP kids, dealing with focus challenges, dyslexia, dysgraphia, etc. This happens repeatedly across the school year. Then next year the principal does the same thing.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Btw—it does seem like the IEPs are grouped together in one class so then only one Special Ed teacher is needed in one room. I think there’s an argument that it’s not for the best for child development even though it helps the principal with staffing.

Well yes, but there's no right to "the best".

The point is that the principal is creating the restrictive environment for learning by placing 12 IEPs together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, it's very typical to group students with IEPs rather than spreading them across all classes. It's much easier to provide support that way.

This is not ok. Parents need to file complaints when they see this.

Then you better also open your checkbooks because there are only a certain amount of SPED teachers on schools budgets and they aren't able to split themselves into multiple places at once.

If its not okay to group students with IEPs rather than spreading them across all classes, what is your proposed suggestion to deliver service hours? If there are more children with IEPs than there are classes, how else can you manage? At some point, there are multiple children with IEPs in a given classroom.

Nobody is saying that there should be only 1 IEP student in each class. Why do you think anyone is saying that?

I

Then what is being said? Parents need to file complaints when they see this...this being a grouping of students with IEPs. What is a group then--3, 4, 5? How many students with IEPs make a group?

The title of this thread is: Is it typical for elementary to group all IEP kids together in the same class

That means if there are 20 students with IEPs, theoretically those 20 students would be grouped together in one class. Obviously, that number will be dependent on the number of students with IEPs in any given grade. Is that what "inclusion" means?

That would depend on whether there were also gen-ed students in the class, and what content is taught. I do not believe "inclusion" requires that all classrooms have an equal number of students with IEPs.

What if there are 4 classes and only 3 kids with IEPs? How do you separate them equally?

This thread is entering ridiculous territory.

Yep.
Basically, it is a common and efficient practice to put students in IEPs in one homeroom so that the SPED teacher that is assigned to that grade is able to push in to one class and keep as an inclusive setting. When schools have students with IEPs spread out in multiple classrooms they have no choice but to pull students out for specialized instruction, "excluding them" from the classroom.

Re: Parent complaints. Go ahead. You're wrong and they will go nowhere

Is it common for there to be 4 classes in a grade and only 3 children with IEPs within that grade?

No, that would be rare and would raise red flags that the school is not identifying children who need IEPs.

Ok. There are 3 kids with IEPs and 2 classes. How do you split them?

You assess each student individually . The I in IEP is Individual. When a Principal builds the classes for the grade (since we are talking about ES here), they should place each student in the classroom with the teacher that works for that student. It may be that all three are in different rooms or all three are in the same room. When my DC was in elementary, with an IEP (for dyslexia and dysgraphia) and a flair in math and science, they were generally placed with the ES teacher that was more math/science leaning. There were three classes in each of of their grades and the students with IEPs were placed in all three homeroom classrooms every year.

That just doesn’t happen in a school with 700 elementary school kids. You may think the principal did that for everyone. But they may have just been doing it for you.

There were over 600 kids in the school and the Principal was known for building good classes. It wasn’t just us. It is somewhat of an art form, but they had developed a good way of evaluating the students based on the prior year teachers input and parents were asked to submit a paragraph about their child too.

You aren't understanding. At a school like this, ALL IEP kids go to the same classroom. If you have an IEP, you go in this classroom. The only way out is to drop the IEP. When you drop the IEP, then the process you are saying happens - prior teachers and you get to submit a paragraph on what you want.

What am I misunderstanding, I am relaying my actual experience. Our school did it differently. The IEP students were not grouped in the same class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Btw—it does seem like the IEPs are grouped together in one class so then only one Special Ed teacher is needed in one room. I think there’s an argument that it’s not for the best for child development even though it helps the principal with staffing.

Well yes, but there's no right to "the best".

The point is that the principal is creating the restrictive environment for learning by placing 12 IEPs together.

What's restrictive about it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, it's very typical to group students with IEPs rather than spreading them across all classes. It's much easier to provide support that way.

This is not ok. Parents need to file complaints when they see this.

Then you better also open your checkbooks because there are only a certain amount of SPED teachers on schools budgets and they aren't able to split themselves into multiple places at once.

If its not okay to group students with IEPs rather than spreading them across all classes, what is your proposed suggestion to deliver service hours? If there are more children with IEPs than there are classes, how else can you manage? At some point, there are multiple children with IEPs in a given classroom.

Nobody is saying that there should be only 1 IEP student in each class. Why do you think anyone is saying that?

I

Then what is being said? Parents need to file complaints when they see this...this being a grouping of students with IEPs. What is a group then--3, 4, 5? How many students with IEPs make a group?

The title of this thread is: Is it typical for elementary to group all IEP kids together in the same class

That means if there are 20 students with IEPs, theoretically those 20 students would be grouped together in one class. Obviously, that number will be dependent on the number of students with IEPs in any given grade. Is that what "inclusion" means?

That would depend on whether there were also gen-ed students in the class, and what content is taught. I do not believe "inclusion" requires that all classrooms have an equal number of students with IEPs.

What if there are 4 classes and only 3 kids with IEPs? How do you separate them equally?

This thread is entering ridiculous territory.

Yep.
Basically, it is a common and efficient practice to put students in IEPs in one homeroom so that the SPED teacher that is assigned to that grade is able to push in to one class and keep as an inclusive setting. When schools have students with IEPs spread out in multiple classrooms they have no choice but to pull students out for specialized instruction, "excluding them" from the classroom.

Re: Parent complaints. Go ahead. You're wrong and they will go nowhere

Is it common for there to be 4 classes in a grade and only 3 children with IEPs within that grade?

No, that would be rare and would raise red flags that the school is not identifying children who need IEPs.

Ok. There are 3 kids with IEPs and 2 classes. How do you split them?

You assess each student individually . The I in IEP is Individual. When a Principal builds the classes for the grade (since we are talking about ES here), they should place each student in the classroom with the teacher that works for that student. It may be that all three are in different rooms or all three are in the same room. When my DC was in elementary, with an IEP (for dyslexia and dysgraphia) and a flair in math and science, they were generally placed with the ES teacher that was more math/science leaning. There were three classes in each of of their grades and the students with IEPs were placed in all three homeroom classrooms every year.

This most likely means your child was pulled out for services, which is the opposite of inclusion. Either that or your district is resource rich beyond what is normal.

Some services were pull out and some were push in. It depended on the subject and the individual student. It was Fairfax County.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Btw—it does seem like the IEPs are grouped together in one class so then only one Special Ed teacher is needed in one room. I think there’s an argument that it’s not for the best for child development even though it helps the principal with staffing.

Well yes, but there's no right to "the best".

The point is that the principal is creating the restrictive environment for learning by placing 12 IEPs together.

What's restrictive about it?

They are restricting the IEP students to one specific classroom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Btw—it does seem like the IEPs are grouped together in one class so then only one Special Ed teacher is needed in one room. I think there’s an argument that it’s not for the best for child development even though it helps the principal with staffing.

Well yes, but there's no right to "the best".

The point is that the principal is creating the restrictive environment for learning by placing 12 IEPs together.

What's restrictive about it?

They are restricting the IEP students to one specific classroom.

Some of you have no clue what you're talking about and it shows.

The gen Ed classroom is the least restrictive environment. It doesn't become more restrictive just because other students also have IEPs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is how it works. Let's say there are 70 students in the grade. About 14 kids have IEP's. They all automatically get put in one classroom regardless of the need. From serious behavioral issues to mild developmental delays. Then, they mix in a few other kids and call it an inclusive classroom. As a parent, you do not have a choice. Your child goes in that classroom as long as they have an IEP. The only way to remove your child from the classroom the next year is to remove the IEP.

We are not talking about 3 kids with IEP's. Generally, the kids are mixed between the classrooms like PP stated and the child goes with the best fit of kids/teacher. This is a good situation for kids with high needs but often the low-needs kids get ignored as the services and help are focused on the higher-needs kids.

In my experience (sped para) 14 kids with IEPs in a grade with 70 kids would be split across two of three (or maybe four if really young) classes, with a sped para and a sped teacher alternating days in the two classes. Three kids would be put together in the same class.