Rant about Deal and their religious field trip

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I’ll tell you this much, OP: all this does is teach your kid to hate. Not good.

OP here. Honest question. Why does it teach my kids to hate?

Your unwillingness even to tolerate a dress code so that your kid can learn about a mosque strictly as an academic subject sends a message of intolerance, inflexibility, and hate.

Her kid can learn about the academic subject in class. I hope you stretched before that massive reach you just made.

Not a massive reach. She’s basically saying she refuses to let her kid enter a mosque. It’s hate, pure and simple.

OP here. Nah, I don't hate muslims, catholics, jews, buddhists, mormons, scientologists, or any other person following any religion. And I wouldn't dare visiting a temple of any denomination and not follow their rules. That's why I have no interest in visiting any religious site. What I don't like is a public school "forcing" religious rules on my kids. And if you don't think the school is forcing them, I'd argue that the school is in a position of power. You might argue they might opt out but kids that age usually want to do whatever the other kids their age do.

NP. OP, it does appear to me that you’re acting out of intolerance and, frankly, selfishness. This world needs more love, more understanding, and more support for other cultures and belief systems. Requesting that your child follow the norms of another culture is part of showing respect for that culture. The school isn’t “forcing them.” As you already stated, you can opt out. This seems like an unusual fight to pick. Instead of arguing that the school is somehow using its power to abuse you, what if you reframe your thinking to seeing this as an opportunity for education and an opportunity to show respect to another culture?

How is tolerating the subjugation of girls and women an acceptable form of “respect”? If anything, as a child I would learn to hate religion and be intolerant of such ignorance and misogyny. But evidently it’s completely cool to DCUM that the girls will be forced to cover up and exhibit their virtue while the boys are not required.

As a man, when I visit a synagogue as a visitor or tourist, I manage to cover my head without ever being subjugated or hating Judaism. When I visit a mosque as a visitor or tourist, I wear loose fitting clothing and long pants and sleeves without being subjugated or hating Islam.

There is a difference between choosing to go as a tourist and going as part of a school sponsored trip. If the dress code is different for boys and girls and distributed in writing, OP should complain to the principal and DCPS and state that their child will both attend and adhere to the dress code for boys and that you will be happy to file a civil rights complaint if the school has a problem with it.

You sound like book banner. Don't stick your head in the sand and pretend there are no viewpoints in the world that don't comply with your views.

Islam, Christianity, Judaism and mamy other religions exist in the world whether you have knowledge of them or not. Don't be ignorant. Bring educated does not mean you agree with every viewpoint or artwork or religion or author, etc. That you study.

Public schools don't get to apply discriminatory dress codes or requirements. If the school feels head coverings are necessary for girls, they can either mandate them for boys too or find another field trip.

They are not supposed to teach their pupils about discrimination?

The school does not " feel head coverings are necessary". They feel that education about major world religions is necessary. And part of that education is that these religions treat men and women differently.

It does not mean the school condones it, it means they are not pretending it does not exist.

I agree! Like, if the school visited South Africa during apartheid the black kids should be relegated to black only facilities. Or a visit to Germany in 1941, the Jewish kids should wear stars on their arms. Cause, you know, schools can't pretend this stuff doesn't exist.

(Yes, this is sarcasm. Because PP's response was insipid and weak minded.)

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I’ll tell you this much, OP: all this does is teach your kid to hate. Not good.

OP here. Honest question. Why does it teach my kids to hate?

Your unwillingness even to tolerate a dress code so that your kid can learn about a mosque strictly as an academic subject sends a message of intolerance, inflexibility, and hate.

Her kid can learn about the academic subject in class. I hope you stretched before that massive reach you just made.

Not a massive reach. She’s basically saying she refuses to let her kid enter a mosque. It’s hate, pure and simple.

OP here. Nah, I don't hate muslims, catholics, jews, buddhists, mormons, scientologists, or any other person following any religion. And I wouldn't dare visiting a temple of any denomination and not follow their rules. That's why I have no interest in visiting any religious site. What I don't like is a public school "forcing" religious rules on my kids. And if you don't think the school is forcing them, I'd argue that the school is in a position of power. You might argue they might opt out but kids that age usually want to do whatever the other kids their age do.

NP. OP, it does appear to me that you’re acting out of intolerance and, frankly, selfishness. This world needs more love, more understanding, and more support for other cultures and belief systems. Requesting that your child follow the norms of another culture is part of showing respect for that culture. The school isn’t “forcing them.” As you already stated, you can opt out. This seems like an unusual fight to pick. Instead of arguing that the school is somehow using its power to abuse you, what if you reframe your thinking to seeing this as an opportunity for education and an opportunity to show respect to another culture?

How is tolerating the subjugation of girls and women an acceptable form of “respect”? If anything, as a child I would learn to hate religion and be intolerant of such ignorance and misogyny. But evidently it’s completely cool to DCUM that the girls will be forced to cover up and exhibit their virtue while the boys are not required.

As a man, when I visit a synagogue as a visitor or tourist, I manage to cover my head without ever being subjugated or hating Judaism. When I visit a mosque as a visitor or tourist, I wear loose fitting clothing and long pants and sleeves without being subjugated or hating Islam.

There is a difference between choosing to go as a tourist and going as part of a school sponsored trip. If the dress code is different for boys and girls and distributed in writing, OP should complain to the principal and DCPS and state that their child will both attend and adhere to the dress code for boys and that you will be happy to file a civil rights complaint if the school has a problem with it.

You sound like book banner. Don't stick your head in the sand and pretend there are no viewpoints in the world that don't comply with your views.

Islam, Christianity, Judaism and mamy other religions exist in the world whether you have knowledge of them or not. Don't be ignorant. Bring educated does not mean you agree with every viewpoint or artwork or religion or author, etc. That you study.

Public schools don't get to apply discriminatory dress codes or requirements. If the school feels head coverings are necessary for girls, they can either mandate them for boys too or find another field trip.

Another parent here. I don’t want my child deprived of educational opportunities because you feel a temporary head covering is some horrible infringement on your rights. I want my child to learn through exposure to other cultures, countries, etc. You are welcome to chose ignorance and hate for your family, but the purpose of education is to explore and grow through new knowledge.

Perhaps homeschooling is an option for you?

Gaslight much? Anyone who thinks religion is a scam meant to control minorities and subjugate women is exhibiting "hate". Also, what part of OP's view about muslim's view of women and requirements is "ignorant"? Tell me where they were wrong on the facts, and not just your reflexive reaction to being told you are a victim of a scam.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I’ll tell you this much, OP: all this does is teach your kid to hate. Not good.

OP here. Honest question. Why does it teach my kids to hate?

Your unwillingness even to tolerate a dress code so that your kid can learn about a mosque strictly as an academic subject sends a message of intolerance, inflexibility, and hate.

Her kid can learn about the academic subject in class. I hope you stretched before that massive reach you just made.

Not a massive reach. She’s basically saying she refuses to let her kid enter a mosque. It’s hate, pure and simple.

OP here. Nah, I don't hate muslims, catholics, jews, buddhists, mormons, scientologists, or any other person following any religion. And I wouldn't dare visiting a temple of any denomination and not follow their rules. That's why I have no interest in visiting any religious site. What I don't like is a public school "forcing" religious rules on my kids. And if you don't think the school is forcing them, I'd argue that the school is in a position of power. You might argue they might opt out but kids that age usually want to do whatever the other kids their age do.

NP. OP, it does appear to me that you’re acting out of intolerance and, frankly, selfishness. This world needs more love, more understanding, and more support for other cultures and belief systems. Requesting that your child follow the norms of another culture is part of showing respect for that culture. The school isn’t “forcing them.” As you already stated, you can opt out. This seems like an unusual fight to pick. Instead of arguing that the school is somehow using its power to abuse you, what if you reframe your thinking to seeing this as an opportunity for education and an opportunity to show respect to another culture?

How is tolerating the subjugation of girls and women an acceptable form of “respect”? If anything, as a child I would learn to hate religion and be intolerant of such ignorance and misogyny. But evidently it’s completely cool to DCUM that the girls will be forced to cover up and exhibit their virtue while the boys are not required.

As a man, when I visit a synagogue as a visitor or tourist, I manage to cover my head without ever being subjugated or hating Judaism. When I visit a mosque as a visitor or tourist, I wear loose fitting clothing and long pants and sleeves without being subjugated or hating Islam.

There is a difference between choosing to go as a tourist and going as part of a school sponsored trip. If the dress code is different for boys and girls and distributed in writing, OP should complain to the principal and DCPS and state that their child will both attend and adhere to the dress code for boys and that you will be happy to file a civil rights complaint if the school has a problem with it.

You sound like book banner. Don't stick your head in the sand and pretend there are no viewpoints in the world that don't comply with your views.

Islam, Christianity, Judaism and mamy other religions exist in the world whether you have knowledge of them or not. Don't be ignorant. Bring educated does not mean you agree with every viewpoint or artwork or religion or author, etc. That you study.

Public schools don't get to apply discriminatory dress codes or requirements. If the school feels head coverings are necessary for girls, they can either mandate them for boys too or find another field trip.

DP. Field trips to mosques make the news periodically and they all require girls to cover their heads. Can you point to any successful lawsuits against that or is your sense of what schools "get to" do based purely on what you think they ought to do, rather than the law?

I guess the ACLU doesn't know what they're talking about? You should request that they update their site

"Dress codes can’t be explicitly discriminatory.
That means that while dress codes may specify types of attire that are acceptable, these requirements may not differ based on students’ gender, race, religion, or other protected characteristics. Under federal laws protecting against discrimination in education – including Title IX, Title VI, and the U.S. Constitution’s equal protection guarantee, public schools cannot enforce a dress code based on gender- or race-based stereotypes about appropriate dress or appearance. For example, a public school cannot require girls, and only girls, to wear skirts or dresses, or require boys, but not girls, to wear short hair. This also goes for special events and occasions – such as prom, graduation, or yearbook photos. For example, while a public school can require “formal attire” to be worn at special events, it may not require that girls, and only girls, wear gowns – or that boys, and only boys, wear a suit."

https://www.aclu.org/news/womens-rights/4-things-public-schools-can-and-cant-do-dress-codes#:~:text=Under%20federal%20laws%20protecting%20against,about%20appropriate%20dress%20or%20appearance.

It's a school-sponsored event. It has a dress code. That dress code is discriminatory. That's illegal.

That's it. The fact that the event is optional is irrelevant. The fact that it's at a house of worship is a red herring.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll tell you this much, OP: all this does is teach your kid to hate. Not good.

OP here. Honest question. Why does it teach my kids to hate?

Your unwillingness even to tolerate a dress code so that your kid can learn about a mosque strictly as an academic subject sends a message of intolerance, inflexibility, and hate.

Her kid can learn about the academic subject in class. I hope you stretched before that massive reach you just made.

Not a massive reach. She’s basically saying she refuses to let her kid enter a mosque. It’s hate, pure and simple.

OP here. Nah, I don't hate muslims, catholics, jews, buddhists, mormons, scientologists, or any other person following any religion. And I wouldn't dare visiting a temple of any denomination and not follow their rules. That's why I have no interest in visiting any religious site. What I don't like is a public school "forcing" religious rules on my kids. And if you don't think the school is forcing them, I'd argue that the school is in a position of power. You might argue they might opt out but kids that age usually want to do whatever the other kids their age do.

NP. OP, it does appear to me that you’re acting out of intolerance and, frankly, selfishness. This world needs more love, more understanding, and more support for other cultures and belief systems. Requesting that your child follow the norms of another culture is part of showing respect for that culture. The school isn’t “forcing them.” As you already stated, you can opt out. This seems like an unusual fight to pick. Instead of arguing that the school is somehow using its power to abuse you, what if you reframe your thinking to seeing this as an opportunity for education and an opportunity to show respect to another culture?

How is tolerating the subjugation of girls and women an acceptable form of “respect”? If anything, as a child I would learn to hate religion and be intolerant of such ignorance and misogyny. But evidently it’s completely cool to DCUM that the girls will be forced to cover up and exhibit their virtue while the boys are not required.

As a man, when I visit a synagogue as a visitor or tourist, I manage to cover my head without ever being subjugated or hating Judaism. When I visit a mosque as a visitor or tourist, I wear loose fitting clothing and long pants and sleeves without being subjugated or hating Islam.

There is a difference between choosing to go as a tourist and going as part of a school sponsored trip. If the dress code is different for boys and girls and distributed in writing, OP should complain to the principal and DCPS and state that their child will both attend and adhere to the dress code for boys and that you will be happy to file a civil rights complaint if the school has a problem with it.

You sound like book banner. Don't stick your head in the sand and pretend there are no viewpoints in the world that don't comply with your views.

Islam, Christianity, Judaism and mamy other religions exist in the world whether you have knowledge of them or not. Don't be ignorant. Bring educated does not mean you agree with every viewpoint or artwork or religion or author, etc. That you study.

Public schools don't get to apply discriminatory dress codes or requirements. If the school feels head coverings are necessary for girls, they can either mandate them for boys too or find another field trip.

DP. Field trips to mosques make the news periodically and they all require girls to cover their heads. Can you point to any successful lawsuits against that or is your sense of what schools "get to" do based purely on what you think they ought to do, rather than the law?

I guess the ACLU doesn't know what they're talking about? You should request that they update their site

"Dress codes can’t be explicitly discriminatory.
That means that while dress codes may specify types of attire that are acceptable, these requirements may not differ based on students’ gender, race, religion, or other protected characteristics. Under federal laws protecting against discrimination in education – including Title IX, Title VI, and the U.S. Constitution’s equal protection guarantee, public schools cannot enforce a dress code based on gender- or race-based stereotypes about appropriate dress or appearance. For example, a public school cannot require girls, and only girls, to wear skirts or dresses, or require boys, but not girls, to wear short hair. This also goes for special events and occasions – such as prom, graduation, or yearbook photos. For example, while a public school can require “formal attire” to be worn at special events, it may not require that girls, and only girls, wear gowns – or that boys, and only boys, wear a suit."

https://www.aclu.org/news/womens-rights/4-things-public-schools-can-and-cant-do-dress-codes#:~:text=Under%20federal%20laws%20protecting%20against,about%20appropriate%20dress%20or%20appearance.

It's a school-sponsored event. It has a dress code. That dress code is discriminatory. That's illegal.

That's it. The fact that the event is optional is irrelevant. The fact that it's at a house of worship is a red herring.

The correct response from the school is to say to the mosque, "as a public school, it is illegal for us to enforce a gender-based dress code. For this event we need to either have a gender-neutral dress code or cancel it. Thank you for your kind offer."

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What did your kid say when you explained to them that some houses of worship have dress code rules? If you were a tourist somewhere, you would also cover to enter some places and take your shoes off if you went to a Japanese persons house. I dont get what the big deal is. As a public school family you can opt out of the field trip but you dont get to change the rules for someones belief.

No, of course I don't want them to change their rules for my (lack of) beliefs.
And yes, if I was a tourist interested in going to a church or whatever I'd have to respect their rules. That's why I prefer other destinations.
My rant was more about the school putting parents of girls in a position where I have to let my kid go or make them feel like they are being excluded.

What's the alternative? No girls go? Everyone misses an opportunity to immerse even for an hour into something other than what they know?

Kids still study the ocean and they rarely go on a scuba diving trip

+1 these field trips would bother me too OP. Seems like a waste of time on top of everything else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If they went to the White House, would you balk at the request for them to "dress up?" If they were hiking, would you balk at the request for them to wear hiking shoes and clothes? Perhaps you might analogize it in this way--you're not submitting to a religious code you find anathema as much as you are showing respect for the location you are visiting and wearing something appropriate to that environment/activity.

None of these examples or Kennedy center etc make sense. OP is objecting yo a gendered dress code. DD could wear slacks and nice shirt to any K Cntr event or White House etc if she wanted to. None of those dress codes say gown for women etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids are in 6th grade at Deal. They are studying religion in their geography class and, as part of the class, the school is organizing a field trip to a mosque, a church, and a synagogue. We are atheist but we understand that learning about religions is part of understanding the world. However, they are asking girls to cover their head/hair when entering the mosque; which I don't like. I mean, I 100% understand that the mosque requires that of women and I respect their requirement. It's their right. As is my right to never enter a mosque (and why I also try to avoid synagogues and churches as much as possible). But now the school is forcing me to tell my kid that I am not signing the consent form for them to go on the field trip. And I have to deal with my kids telling me that they will feel excluded. I guess it is a small price to pay for living in a religious society. I was naive in thinking that a public school wouldn't do this to families...I'm pissed off...End of rant.

Contact ACLU.

That hair requirement is clearly discriminatory.

Clearly you didn’t go to law school.

Disagree. I'm a lawyer too. As ppl are saying, the problem is not the mosque and its rules, which it is clearly free to have. The problem is the public school and the gender-disaparate rules.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll tell you this much, OP: all this does is teach your kid to hate. Not good.

OP here. Honest question. Why does it teach my kids to hate?

Your unwillingness even to tolerate a dress code so that your kid can learn about a mosque strictly as an academic subject sends a message of intolerance, inflexibility, and hate.

Her kid can learn about the academic subject in class. I hope you stretched before that massive reach you just made.

Not a massive reach. She’s basically saying she refuses to let her kid enter a mosque. It’s hate, pure and simple.

OP here. Nah, I don't hate muslims, catholics, jews, buddhists, mormons, scientologists, or any other person following any religion. And I wouldn't dare visiting a temple of any denomination and not follow their rules. That's why I have no interest in visiting any religious site. What I don't like is a public school "forcing" religious rules on my kids. And if you don't think the school is forcing them, I'd argue that the school is in a position of power. You might argue they might opt out but kids that age usually want to do whatever the other kids their age do.

NP. OP, it does appear to me that you’re acting out of intolerance and, frankly, selfishness. This world needs more love, more understanding, and more support for other cultures and belief systems. Requesting that your child follow the norms of another culture is part of showing respect for that culture. The school isn’t “forcing them.” As you already stated, you can opt out. This seems like an unusual fight to pick. Instead of arguing that the school is somehow using its power to abuse you, what if you reframe your thinking to seeing this as an opportunity for education and an opportunity to show respect to another culture?

How is tolerating the subjugation of girls and women an acceptable form of “respect”? If anything, as a child I would learn to hate religion and be intolerant of such ignorance and misogyny. But evidently it’s completely cool to DCUM that the girls will be forced to cover up and exhibit their virtue while the boys are not required.

As a man, when I visit a synagogue as a visitor or tourist, I manage to cover my head without ever being subjugated or hating Judaism. When I visit a mosque as a visitor or tourist, I wear loose fitting clothing and long pants and sleeves without being subjugated or hating Islam.

There is a difference between choosing to go as a tourist and going as part of a school sponsored trip. If the dress code is different for boys and girls and distributed in writing, OP should complain to the principal and DCPS and state that their child will both attend and adhere to the dress code for boys and that you will be happy to file a civil rights complaint if the school has a problem with it.

You sound like book banner. Don't stick your head in the sand and pretend there are no viewpoints in the world that don't comply with your views.

Islam, Christianity, Judaism and mamy other religions exist in the world whether you have knowledge of them or not. Don't be ignorant. Bring educated does not mean you agree with every viewpoint or artwork or religion or author, etc. That you study.

Public schools don't get to apply discriminatory dress codes or requirements. If the school feels head coverings are necessary for girls, they can either mandate them for boys too or find another field trip.

DP. Field trips to mosques make the news periodically and they all require girls to cover their heads. Can you point to any successful lawsuits against that or is your sense of what schools "get to" do based purely on what you think they ought to do, rather than the law?

I guess the ACLU doesn't know what they're talking about? You should request that they update their site

"Dress codes can’t be explicitly discriminatory.
That means that while dress codes may specify types of attire that are acceptable, these requirements may not differ based on students’ gender, race, religion, or other protected characteristics. Under federal laws protecting against discrimination in education – including Title IX, Title VI, and the U.S. Constitution’s equal protection guarantee, public schools cannot enforce a dress code based on gender- or race-based stereotypes about appropriate dress or appearance. For example, a public school cannot require girls, and only girls, to wear skirts or dresses, or require boys, but not girls, to wear short hair. This also goes for special events and occasions – such as prom, graduation, or yearbook photos. For example, while a public school can require “formal attire” to be worn at special events, it may not require that girls, and only girls, wear gowns – or that boys, and only boys, wear a suit."

https://www.aclu.org/news/womens-rights/4-things-public-schools-can-and-cant-do-dress-codes#:~:text=Under%20federal%20laws%20protecting%20against,about%20appropriate%20dress%20or%20appearance.

It's a school-sponsored event. It has a dress code. That dress code is discriminatory. That's illegal.

That's it. The fact that the event is optional is irrelevant. The fact that it's at a house of worship is a red herring.

If it's illegal, I'm sure you can find me a court saying that, since these kinds of trips have been happening for years all over the country.

[Anonymous]

It sounds like you are more upset that your kids are pissed at you for not letting them go than you are for the fact that your kids have the opportunity to go.

[Anonymous]

I find it interesting that OP did not mention that boys will have to wear a yarmulke in the synagogue. She only mentioned the mosque.

Racist much, OP?

[Anonymous]

This whole thread is just exhausting. This is a really great and very educational field trip. My kids went on it and they still reference it years later. Honestly, part of the educational part is the experience is for the students to experience briefly the gender differences in the mosque. Those who can't see that really have a very narrow view of education and are just as bad as those who want to censor books in school libraries.

[Anonymous]

You sound extremely annoying. Get over it and let your kid go. Learning about dress codes is part of learning about religious practices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kids are in 6th grade at Deal. They are studying religion in their geography class and, as part of the class, the school is organizing a field trip to a mosque, a church, and a synagogue. We are atheist but we understand that learning about religions is part of understanding the world. However, they are asking girls to cover their head/hair when entering the mosque; which I don't like. I mean, I 100% understand that the mosque requires that of women and I respect their requirement. It's their right. As is my right to never enter a mosque (and why I also try to avoid synagogues and churches as much as possible). But now the school is forcing me to tell my kid that I am not signing the consent form for them to go on the field trip. And I have to deal with my kids telling me that they will feel excluded. I guess it is a small price to pay for living in a religious society. I was naive in thinking that a public school wouldn't do this to families...I'm pissed off...End of rant.

Are they not also requiring boys/men to cover their heads in the synagogue?

[Anonymous]

The Deal letter says long sleeves and long pants. No mention of head coverings or different requirements for girls/boys. OP, where are you getting your info?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Deal letter says long sleeves and long pants. No mention of head coverings or different requirements for girls/boys. OP, where are you getting your info?

She’s an atheist looking to be offended and outraged. It’s how they roll.