Rant about Deal and their religious field trip

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks to some of the (minority of) constructive comments in this thread. I took the opportunity that this field trip brought and started a long conversation about how religion, in general, treat women and also how my kids think/feel about this. It is fantastic to see my kids grow into sensible and respecting human beings. The conversation is enriching both for me and for my kids, I hope! For that I thank the school and some of you people with your different perspectives.

Apparently, the school change the mosque they are planning on visiting and are no longer requiring girls to cover their head/hair. As far as I know the school decided this on their own (I didn't complain nor did any of the other parents I talked to about this issue). This speaks well of Deal, I think.

In any case, I had decided to let my kids decide what to do. They told me that they didn't mind covering their hair/head, that they find it strange but they wanted to go on the field trip. I told them that I respected their decision and that was happy for them.

For me, it was an interesting learning experience as well.

Finally, I want to say that many of you need to slow down before insulting/jumping to conclusions about fellow posters here. FWIW, I wrote only the comments announcing that I was OP and I don't think I was disrespectful. Maybe I was inaccurate, maybe my tone was wrong? I don't know. But many of you jump off at me with insults or misrepresenting the things I said. It's ok, it's an anonymous forum and it's always hard to have a nuanced conversation via writing only. If anything, this also confirm that religion is poison. This is not hate: I don't hate religious people; you are free to believe and do whatever you want as long as you don't bother your fellow citizens/neighbors. Be happy, be well. In peace,

OP.

I was doing well with your update until I got to “if anything, this also confirms that religion is poison.” You may not hate religious people, but perhaps you can spend some more time looking at the good religion brings. I’m glad your children will be on this trip. I suspect they’ll see some of that.

-a person who came to religion late in life because of the positive relationships I formed with faithful people

Said it before, I'll say it again.

1. You found a cult. Good for you.
2. How much good does a cult have to do before one ignores centuries or evil and terror? How much abuse and marginalization?
3. Are you a woman? Are these relationships with other "faithful" women? The genius of religion is its ability to convince women to aid in the subjugation of other women as some sort of community activity

Blah blah blah you know-it-all angry and self righteous twit. I’ll bet you’re a lot of fun to hang out with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m also an atheist. You should let your 6th grader decide. She is not being excluded, you are the one excluding her. So you should have the wherewithal to explain why you have decided she is not allowed to do this, and what is the super important principle that is at stake.

OP here. Of course I have explained to them my rationale; and, honestly, I'm still making up my mind around this issue. And I know I'm excluding her because of an idea the school had. My rant was because I feel icky about the school's idea of this field trip.

Idk OP this is some weirdly tinged intolerance feigned as "atheism". I'm an atheist teacher whose students participate in the Embassy Adoption program. We've gone to a Buddhist temple and worn the appropriate clothing. We've had Islamic States and worn their clothes, we've had Israel and worn their clothes. Exploring cultures is not something to feel icky about. It's a learning experience not religious immersion

Exactly this. We are a non religious household but I have no problem with my 6th grader learning about other religions and cultures. And I consider it respectful to dress appropriately in those spaces.... whatever that community feels "appropriate" is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks to some of the (minority of) constructive comments in this thread. I took the opportunity that this field trip brought and started a long conversation about how religion, in general, treat women and also how my kids think/feel about this. It is fantastic to see my kids grow into sensible and respecting human beings. The conversation is enriching both for me and for my kids, I hope! For that I thank the school and some of you people with your different perspectives.

Apparently, the school change the mosque they are planning on visiting and are no longer requiring girls to cover their head/hair. As far as I know the school decided this on their own (I didn't complain nor did any of the other parents I talked to about this issue). This speaks well of Deal, I think.

In any case, I had decided to let my kids decide what to do. They told me that they didn't mind covering their hair/head, that they find it strange but they wanted to go on the field trip. I told them that I respected their decision and that was happy for them.

For me, it was an interesting learning experience as well.

Finally, I want to say that many of you need to slow down before insulting/jumping to conclusions about fellow posters here. FWIW, I wrote only the comments announcing that I was OP and I don't think I was disrespectful. Maybe I was inaccurate, maybe my tone was wrong? I don't know. But many of you jump off at me with insults or misrepresenting the things I said. It's ok, it's an anonymous forum and it's always hard to have a nuanced conversation via writing only. If anything, this also confirm that religion is poison. This is not hate: I don't hate religious people; you are free to believe and do whatever you want as long as you don't bother your fellow citizens/neighbors. Be happy, be well. In peace,

OP.

I was doing well with your update until I got to “if anything, this also confirms that religion is poison.” You may not hate religious people, but perhaps you can spend some more time looking at the good religion brings. I’m glad your children will be on this trip. I suspect they’ll see some of that.

-a person who came to religion late in life because of the positive relationships I formed with faithful people

Said it before, I'll say it again.

1. You found a cult. Good for you.
2. How much good does a cult have to do before one ignores centuries or evil and terror? How much abuse and marginalization?
3. Are you a woman? Are these relationships with other "faithful" women? The genius of religion is its ability to convince women to aid in the subjugation of other women as some sort of community activity

I’m the PP and yes, I am a woman.

You come across as blinded to what faith communities are really like. I can’t fix that for you. If you ever feel reflective, however, consider the appropriateness of my tone versus the hostility of yours. I am speaking from a place of understanding and explanation. I am not throwing insults or misconceptions about atheism your way. I am not making assumptions about your life or your communities.

I wish you the best, sincerely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would tell my daughter that all religion is sh**ty to women. Do you want to go on these field trips and cover your head? As an atheist kids need to experience the crappiness of religion so they know what they’re rejecting.

This is clearly a troll.

What? I’m not a troll. There isn’t a religion on the face of this earth that believes women are equals to men. Even in Buddhism, one cannot reach enlightenment as a woman.

Please. I'm a Catholic and I feel 100% equal to men. I've never ONCE felt "less than" during a Mass or any Church gathering. Ironically, it seems to be the self-identified athiests on this thread who want to define me as less than a man.

What if you wanted to be a priest? Would you still feel equal to men in the Catholic Church?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would tell my daughter that all religion is sh**ty to women. Do you want to go on these field trips and cover your head? As an atheist kids need to experience the crappiness of religion so they know what they’re rejecting.

This is clearly a troll.

What? I’m not a troll. There isn’t a religion on the face of this earth that believes women are equals to men. Even in Buddhism, one cannot reach enlightenment as a woman.

Please. I'm a Catholic and I feel 100% equal to men. I've never ONCE felt "less than" during a Mass or any Church gathering. Ironically, it seems to be the self-identified athiests on this thread who want to define me as less than a man.

What if you wanted to be a priest? Would you still feel equal to men in the Catholic Church?

Sorry...a women would be out of luck. Priesthood is only for men...still..in 2022. That is the message catholic females get.

[Anonymous]

Whoa.

I'm actually delighted that the school is making a field trip out of this instead of desk learning. The kids will really remember the experience and have more empathy for people with different backgrounds. They're old enough to start making their own critical assessments about how the world works.

I honestly wish they had a few more visits: a Buddhist and Hindu temple would be nice to include. But at least they have three. I don't love modest dress, but have done it as a tourist, and that's what the kids are in this context.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks to some of the (minority of) constructive comments in this thread. I took the opportunity that this field trip brought and started a long conversation about how religion, in general, treat women and also how my kids think/feel about this. It is fantastic to see my kids grow into sensible and respecting human beings. The conversation is enriching both for me and for my kids, I hope! For that I thank the school and some of you people with your different perspectives.

Apparently, the school change the mosque they are planning on visiting and are no longer requiring girls to cover their head/hair. As far as I know the school decided this on their own (I didn't complain nor did any of the other parents I talked to about this issue). This speaks well of Deal, I think.

In any case, I had decided to let my kids decide what to do. They told me that they didn't mind covering their hair/head, that they find it strange but they wanted to go on the field trip. I told them that I respected their decision and that was happy for them.

For me, it was an interesting learning experience as well.

Finally, I want to say that many of you need to slow down before insulting/jumping to conclusions about fellow posters here. FWIW, I wrote only the comments announcing that I was OP and I don't think I was disrespectful. Maybe I was inaccurate, maybe my tone was wrong? I don't know. But many of you jump off at me with insults or misrepresenting the things I said. It's ok, it's an anonymous forum and it's always hard to have a nuanced conversation via writing only. If anything, this also confirm that religion is poison. This is not hate: I don't hate religious people; you are free to believe and do whatever you want as long as you don't bother your fellow citizens/neighbors. Be happy, be well. In peace,

OP.

Oh, goodness, OP.

You will need to take your own advice re: slowing down and jumping to conclusions. That is exactly how you got this thread started. You were inaccurate and your tone was wrong regarding this field trip. You got information from kids who you know are not always reliable reporters and instead of checking the info (maybe look at the official school letter and permission slip available on the school’s web site or even contact an actual teacher for, you know, a nuanced conversation!), you jumped on here to rant. You anonymously maligned your children’s teachers (jumped off with insults?) who are easily identifiable and you talked (ranted?) with other parents. But you never confirmed the info.

Now you know the info was wrong, you appreciate the opportunity for a conversation, a learning experience, etc.? How about taking this opportunity to show your children’s teachers a little appreciation or at least some respect? Taking sixth graders on a field trip is no picnic even w/o your unwarranted and anonymous ranting.

And no, I’m not a teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would tell my daughter that all religion is sh**ty to women. Do you want to go on these field trips and cover your head? As an atheist kids need to experience the crappiness of religion so they know what they’re rejecting.

This is clearly a troll.

What? I’m not a troll. There isn’t a religion on the face of this earth that believes women are equals to men. Even in Buddhism, one cannot reach enlightenment as a woman.

Please. I'm a Catholic and I feel 100% equal to men. I've never ONCE felt "less than" during a Mass or any Church gathering. Ironically, it seems to be the self-identified athiests on this thread who want to define me as less than a man.

What if you wanted to be a priest? Would you still feel equal to men in the Catholic Church?

Sorry...a women would be out of luck. Priesthood is only for men...still..in 2022. That is the message catholic females get.

Is this such a big slight? I also can’t access other professions because I lack physical strength or a particular proclivity toward a subject.

If you aren’t Catholic, are you the right person to be commenting on how the Church makes females feel?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would tell my daughter that all religion is sh**ty to women. Do you want to go on these field trips and cover your head? As an atheist kids need to experience the crappiness of religion so they know what they’re rejecting.

This is clearly a troll.

What? I’m not a troll. There isn’t a religion on the face of this earth that believes women are equals to men. Even in Buddhism, one cannot reach enlightenment as a woman.

Please. I'm a Catholic and I feel 100% equal to men. I've never ONCE felt "less than" during a Mass or any Church gathering. Ironically, it seems to be the self-identified athiests on this thread who want to define me as less than a man.

What if you wanted to be a priest? Would you still feel equal to men in the Catholic Church?

Sorry...a women would be out of luck. Priesthood is only for men...still..in 2022. That is the message catholic females get.

Is this such a big slight? I also can’t access other professions because I lack physical strength or a particular proclivity toward a subject.

If you aren’t Catholic, are you the right person to be commenting on how the Church makes females feel?

I am Catholic. Lots of Catholics think this and other things need to change immediately. I would absolutely send my kid on the field trip but I would fill them in about the 2nd class status of females in catholicism and other religions as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The school should make the boys cover their hair as well. That keeps the school from enforcing the gender discrimination at while still following the rules of the mosque.

No, they should not. The school doesn't make the rules, the mosque does.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hard pass. Ask to see if there is an in-school option. Having had family members forcibly veiled (even though not mandated by the Quran) I cannot condone forcing children to veil during school (state actor). Adults make their own choices in a democratic society. Children should not be forced. It is always disappointing when Western feminists fail their ideals. Being Liberal does not mean supporting illiberal ideals or holding of the patriarchy.

Also disappointing that you failed to notice the school has made no such official requirement.

It’s in the original post. But I get it you see Islam as primitive and WOC as being less than and less deserving of rights. Consider reading more Islamic feminists when not trolling DCUM.

And it was disproven in subsequent posts. Try reading the thread before you comment. Is this the depth of understanding you usually bring to your “reading?”

It was actually not disproven - in fact a woman wrote about being required by the mosque to wear a head covering. That is a common practice in misjads. Again, if families want to do make their daughters wear a headscarf- that’s on their conscience. But this is a school trip - during school hours. The school should provide an in-school option for parents who want to opt out of this misogynistic practice and/or demonstrate political consciousness and solidarity with the women and girls in Iran.

Please read this post one more time when you are not so heated and angry. No, this won’t weigh on the conscience of most people, who will see this as an opportunity to learn about a different culture. No, most people will not worry about the “misogynistic practice” because they will appreciate that there are American Muslims who choose to wear a head covering because they want to, not because they have to.

I’m fascinated by this distorted “tolerance.” We are called to support others. Is another woman’s head covering here in the US really such an affront to you? If so, that’s unfortunate.

NP. I don’t think anyone on this thread has a problem with women CHOOSING to wear a headscarf. We have a problem with a public school forcing that choice on girls to participate in a school field trip.

Do you really not see the difference?

No, to be honest, I don’t. I would want my daughter to show respect to those whose house she enters. It’s the right thing to do.

It seems as if students can CHOOSE to wear a scarf on this trip. So what, exactly, is the problem?

The choice is wear a scarf, or skip the trip. Public schools aren't allowed to impose discriminatory dress codes, even on optional events.

The school isn't imposing a dress code -- you will lose this fight. And I agree you are being disrespectful to Muslims.

Groups I am not required to be respectful and tolerant of: nazis, white nationalists, muslims, catholics and other oppressive religious regimes that control and subjugate women, insurrectionists and similar. If you abuse and subjugate women or other groups you don't get my respect or civility. Your defense is an age old defense of the indefensible.

Not sure it's reasonable to say all Muslims control and subjugate women. And surely some Jews do the same. Do you object to the trip to the synagogue, too?

The base of the religion (like many others) absolutely seeks to subjugate and control women. Not all Nazis want to kill all jews and blacks. Some just want them kept in their place. Are you suggesting I can't condemn people who go to their meetings, give them money and support them?

P.S. Love your childish "whataboutism". Do you wanna go blow for blow and compare clitectomies to pedophile priests to the horrors wrought by all religions. Jews too, since you seem to think I think that's any different; no women rabbis for the orthodox and no problem with teen brides in that community.

Since you appear to be so concerned about the treatment of women, I have a question for you: I’m a woman who finds comfort in the Catholic Church. My faith has gotten me through some very, very hard times in my life. I actually find that faith and participation in a faith-based community lifts me up. I’m a stronger woman because of it. It’s my choice to participate. Nobody, parents included, encouraged this.

Does your feminism extend to granting me my choice? Does your feminism extend to granting a Muslim woman the choice to wear a head covering? I think you see where I’m going here.

Cults are successful because they make people feel welcomed and give them a sense of community. I'm glad your cult works for you.

Wow - sounds just like your aetheist pack!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hard pass. Ask to see if there is an in-school option. Having had family members forcibly veiled (even though not mandated by the Quran) I cannot condone forcing children to veil during school (state actor). Adults make their own choices in a democratic society. Children should not be forced. It is always disappointing when Western feminists fail their ideals. Being Liberal does not mean supporting illiberal ideals or holding of the patriarchy.

Also disappointing that you failed to notice the school has made no such official requirement.

It’s in the original post. But I get it you see Islam as primitive and WOC as being less than and less deserving of rights. Consider reading more Islamic feminists when not trolling DCUM.

And it was disproven in subsequent posts. Try reading the thread before you comment. Is this the depth of understanding you usually bring to your “reading?”

It was actually not disproven - in fact a woman wrote about being required by the mosque to wear a head covering. That is a common practice in misjads. Again, if families want to do make their daughters wear a headscarf- that’s on their conscience. But this is a school trip - during school hours. The school should provide an in-school option for parents who want to opt out of this misogynistic practice and/or demonstrate political consciousness and solidarity with the women and girls in Iran.

Please read this post one more time when you are not so heated and angry. No, this won’t weigh on the conscience of most people, who will see this as an opportunity to learn about a different culture. No, most people will not worry about the “misogynistic practice” because they will appreciate that there are American Muslims who choose to wear a head covering because they want to, not because they have to.

I’m fascinated by this distorted “tolerance.” We are called to support others. Is another woman’s head covering here in the US really such an affront to you? If so, that’s unfortunate.

NP. I don’t think anyone on this thread has a problem with women CHOOSING to wear a headscarf. We have a problem with a public school forcing that choice on girls to participate in a school field trip.

Do you really not see the difference?

No, to be honest, I don’t. I would want my daughter to show respect to those whose house she enters. It’s the right thing to do.

It seems as if students can CHOOSE to wear a scarf on this trip. So what, exactly, is the problem?

The choice is wear a scarf, or skip the trip. Public schools aren't allowed to impose discriminatory dress codes, even on optional events.

The school isn't imposing a dress code -- you will lose this fight. And I agree you are being disrespectful to Muslims.

Groups I am not required to be respectful and tolerant of: nazis, white nationalists, muslims, catholics and other oppressive religious regimes that control and subjugate women, insurrectionists and similar. If you abuse and subjugate women or other groups you don't get my respect or civility. Your defense is an age old defense of the indefensible.

Not sure it's reasonable to say all Muslims control and subjugate women. And surely some Jews do the same. Do you object to the trip to the synagogue, too?

The base of the religion (like many others) absolutely seeks to subjugate and control women. Not all Nazis want to kill all jews and blacks. Some just want them kept in their place. Are you suggesting I can't condemn people who go to their meetings, give them money and support them?

P.S. Love your childish "whataboutism". Do you wanna go blow for blow and compare clitectomies to pedophile priests to the horrors wrought by all religions. Jews too, since you seem to think I think that's any different; no women rabbis for the orthodox and no problem with teen brides in that community.

Since you appear to be so concerned about the treatment of women, I have a question for you: I’m a woman who finds comfort in the Catholic Church. My faith has gotten me through some very, very hard times in my life. I actually find that faith and participation in a faith-based community lifts me up. I’m a stronger woman because of it. It’s my choice to participate. Nobody, parents included, encouraged this.

Does your feminism extend to granting me my choice? Does your feminism extend to granting a Muslim woman the choice to wear a head covering? I think you see where I’m going here.

Cults are successful because they make people feel welcomed and give them a sense of community. I'm glad your cult works for you.

Wow - sounds just like your aetheist pack!

If you think Catholicism and Atheism are both religious views or sects then you are beyond reason or help. That would be like creating a false equivalence between a group home populated by people suffering from bi-polar disorder and everyone not so suffering. Just two different ways to approach the world huh?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would tell my daughter that all religion is sh**ty to women. Do you want to go on these field trips and cover your head? As an atheist kids need to experience the crappiness of religion so they know what they’re rejecting.

This is clearly a troll.

What? I’m not a troll. There isn’t a religion on the face of this earth that believes women are equals to men. Even in Buddhism, one cannot reach enlightenment as a woman.

Please. I'm a Catholic and I feel 100% equal to men. I've never ONCE felt "less than" during a Mass or any Church gathering. Ironically, it seems to be the self-identified athiests on this thread who want to define me as less than a man.

What if you wanted to be a priest? Would you still feel equal to men in the Catholic Church?

Sorry...a women would be out of luck. Priesthood is only for men...still..in 2022. That is the message catholic females get.

Is this such a big slight? I also can’t access other professions because I lack physical strength or a particular proclivity toward a subject.

If you aren’t Catholic, are you the right person to be commenting on how the Church makes females feel?

NP. You just made their point for them! Being a priest involves no physical and special skill other than a penis. Because the people with the penises said so. What's scary is how easily they've brainwashed you into believing that excluding women is just like those things.

[Anonymous]

Goodness, you’re narrow-minded, OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would tell my daughter that all religion is sh**ty to women. Do you want to go on these field trips and cover your head? As an atheist kids need to experience the crappiness of religion so they know what they’re rejecting.

This is clearly a troll.

What? I’m not a troll. There isn’t a religion on the face of this earth that believes women are equals to men. Even in Buddhism, one cannot reach enlightenment as a woman.

Please. I'm a Catholic and I feel 100% equal to men. I've never ONCE felt "less than" during a Mass or any Church gathering. Ironically, it seems to be the self-identified athiests on this thread who want to define me as less than a man.

What if you wanted to be a priest? Would you still feel equal to men in the Catholic Church?

Sorry...a women would be out of luck. Priesthood is only for men...still..in 2022. That is the message catholic females get.

Is this such a big slight? I also can’t access other professions because I lack physical strength or a particular proclivity toward a subject.

If you aren’t Catholic, are you the right person to be commenting on how the Church makes females feel?

NP. You just made their point for them! Being a priest involves no physical and special skill other than a penis. Because the people with the penises said so. What's scary is how easily they've brainwashed you into believing that excluding women is just like those things.

I’ve spent about 3 seconds of my life feeling upset about being denied the opportunity to be a priest. Heck, I’m more upset that being a woman means I’ll never earn that NFL salary. I’ve spent years actively participating in Masses and service to the community. I’ve taken on many leadership roles. I’ve never once felt “2nd class.”

I’ve already been the target of insults on this thread. You claim I’m brainwashed. You don’t know me, nor do you know any of the nuances of my beliefs. You are still comfortable making judgments about me, and you are comfortable denigrating my personhood. How is that different than what you claim the Catholic Church does to me?

This entire thread is about whether people should explore new faiths in the name of education. I’ve done that. I’ve visited mosques, synagogues, Quaker meeting houses, etc. I have actually met people from many faiths. I would never stoop to insult them or their beliefs, the same way I have not insulted yours.

I will say one thing that’s on my mind: I wonder if you consider yourself open-minded.