If you had a bad sleeper but didn’t sleep train…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, if sleep training won’t work for your child, you have to commit to doing something to help him sleep. If he’s wild with exhaustion, he needs help or medication or something. I’m a PP whose second child didn’t respond to sleep training, and my husband and I didn’t many nights sleeping while holding him in a chair! I spent several months sitting by his crib for an hour holding his hand til he fell asleep, even after he was able to sleep through the night. He finally starting falling asleep fast and staying asleep all night when we dropped his nap at 2.5.

To me, if you know you don’t want to CIO, just cosleep from the beginning. A lot of people who try to cosleep later either do it on nights where they are desperate bc their kid is having a particularly bad night, but it’s not going to work bc your kid is having a bad night that night. Or it’s such a novel thing that the kid can’t relax while cosleeping for the first couple nights.

I completely agree, I just haven’t found the answer. CMPA diet hasn’t fixed it. We’ve been to 3 different pediatricians who have all been dismissive and said she’s doing great. We’ve tried: cosleeping (huge failure), every sleep sack imaginable, Babywise schedule and many different bedtimes, mini crib, Snoo, bassinet, regular crib, our room, own room, different temperatures, solids, Dohm and Hatch sound machines, dad puts to sleep, mom puts to spring, dream feeds, “le pause”, a lovey, I could go on and on. We are trying. It’s all I think about. Trust me, the urgency of helping my child get enough sleep and avoid cognitive decline is not lost on me.

Despite her not getting enough sleep, she’s very happy and always wakes up happy, almost never cries, and is hitting her all milestones. I think that’s why pediatricians are blowing us off.

Sorry, I think I misunderstood part of the thread - I thought you said somewhere your child was tired and unhappy all day. But she’s actually happy, well rested, and meeting her milestones? So why do you say she’s not getting enough sleep?

OP here: She was unhappy all day when we tried co-sleeping for two weeks because she slept so unbelievably poorly.

And to the pp who asked about her total sleep, most days it’s 11 hours total so not enough: 8-9 at night, and 2-3 of naps (she still does 4 naps because she’ll only sleep 40 minutes and will only nap being held, which I’m also in total despair about and have tried many times to fix).

I really think you are driving yourself crazy with too high expectations.

If your daughter is happy and meeting milestones on 11 hrs of sleep and you’ve tried everything to change it, then she probably does not need more sleep! For my son who was a “bad sleeper,” he pretty much always got 11 hrs of sleep, and it took dropping naps completely to put all those 11 hrs at night.

I think you need to let go of your nap ideas. My first baby, who slept through the night 12 hrs at 4 months, I actually held her for naps til she was 10 months old! There was a time where she was taking 2 35-min naps during the day, and it was fine! It’s not what the books said, but she was happy and growing great. Maybe your 4 naps is why she doesn’t sleep well at night? Also I’m imagining that you’re spending a lot of time settling down for these naps instead of being up and outside and exploring and using her energy.

[Anonymous]

It took about 2 years. Ear tubes helped.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think having to be held for naps at 7 months is all that weird, sorry to say. I had to hold my son until 9 months for naps, and then I did some kind of Sleep training for naps and it actually worked. Attempts before 9 months were just failures. Whole thing was exhausting but it’s over now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not a crunchy mom, I am more a Cheetos-and-Cocomelon mom, but I just could not do anything that even vaguely approached sleep training. Kid woke up every 90 min for two solid years. I lived in the city and I didn’t work so it was doable.

Magically kid started sleeping thru the night at 2. Really nothing had changed, he just one day? out of no where? slept all night. It was and is glorious. That day will come for you, too.

Are you really recommending a family not sleep well for 2 years or 8?

It's a really personal decision. For me, I remember watching the news stories about the romanian orphanages. and then, growing in the dc area, meeting those kids who had been adopted into the US...letting babies cry themselves to sleep, vomit from fear, accept that no caretaker is coming to soothe them-- it just seemed too similar to how those kids were raised.

I understand why people sleep train--if you have to work to support your family, you need sleep to function. But on a deeply personal level, i could not do it. I shared my story because I think people take advantage of the fear of young parents, telling them that if they don't sleep train, that their kid will never learn to sleep on their own, that they will be 8 before it happens, etc. And it's just not true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not a crunchy mom, I am more a Cheetos-and-Cocomelon mom, but I just could not do anything that even vaguely approached sleep training. Kid woke up every 90 min for two solid years. I lived in the city and I didn’t work so it was doable.

Magically kid started sleeping thru the night at 2. Really nothing had changed, he just one day? out of no where? slept all night. It was and is glorious. That day will come for you, too.

Are you really recommending a family not sleep well for 2 years or 8?

It's a really personal decision. For me, I remember watching the news stories about the romanian orphanages. and then, growing in the dc area, meeting those kids who had been adopted into the US...letting babies cry themselves to sleep, vomit from fear, accept that no caretaker is coming to soothe them-- it just seemed too similar to how those kids were raised.

I understand why people sleep train--if you have to work to support your family, you need sleep to function. But on a deeply personal level, i could not do it. I shared my story because I think people take advantage of the fear of young parents, telling them that if they don't sleep train, that their kid will never learn to sleep on their own, that they will be 8 before it happens, etc. And it's just not true.

This is such a crazy understanding of sleep training that it reads like satire. You can't honestly believe that's what's happening in the homes of the people all over this thread saying they sleep trained. Timed checks = Romanian orphanage?

[Anonymous]

OP here. We tried sleep training for naps (and yes, I have since learned you’re supposed to do nights first). It was a dismal failure. Hours of crying for every nap for 3 days only to have her wake up 15-30 minutes later crying not refreshed like all the sleep training zealots claim happens. It also alerted her personality and made her fearful, clingy, and sad for weeks. Again, there are reasons I am not interested in sleep training for nights.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. We tried sleep training for naps (and yes, I have since learned you’re supposed to do nights first). It was a dismal failure. Hours of crying for every nap for 3 days only to have her wake up 15-30 minutes later crying not refreshed like all the sleep training zealots claim happens. It also alerted her personality and made her fearful, clingy, and sad for weeks. Again, there are reasons I am not interested in sleep training for nights.

Wow. I am pro sleep training, but parents that let their baby cry for hours without bothering to read a book about proper sleep training methods should really not sleep train at all. Please, if for whatever reason you change your mind, please read Precious Little Sleep before you try again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not a crunchy mom, I am more a Cheetos-and-Cocomelon mom, but I just could not do anything that even vaguely approached sleep training. Kid woke up every 90 min for two solid years. I lived in the city and I didn’t work so it was doable.

Magically kid started sleeping thru the night at 2. Really nothing had changed, he just one day? out of no where? slept all night. It was and is glorious. That day will come for you, too.

Are you really recommending a family not sleep well for 2 years or 8?

It's a really personal decision. For me, I remember watching the news stories about the romanian orphanages. and then, growing in the dc area, meeting those kids who had been adopted into the US...letting babies cry themselves to sleep, vomit from fear, accept that no caretaker is coming to soothe them-- it just seemed too similar to how those kids were raised.

I understand why people sleep train--if you have to work to support your family, you need sleep to function. But on a deeply personal level, i could not do it. I shared my story because I think people take advantage of the fear of young parents, telling them that if they don't sleep train, that their kid will never learn to sleep on their own, that they will be 8 before it happens, etc. And it's just not true.

You know what's also just not true? That parents who sleep train raise children have upbringings that even remotely resemble children in Romanian orphanages. You do realize that a) sleep training isn't neglect, and b) there is a whole lot of OTHER factors at play in orphanages beyond what happens at bedtime?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. We tried sleep training for naps (and yes, I have since learned you’re supposed to do nights first). It was a dismal failure. Hours of crying for every nap for 3 days only to have her wake up 15-30 minutes later crying not refreshed like all the sleep training zealots claim happens. It also alerted her personality and made her fearful, clingy, and sad for weeks. Again, there are reasons I am not interested in sleep training for nights.

I’m a NP here and I don’t want to pile on, OP. But, if it’s helpful, I found it absolutely impossible to sleep train for naps, even following books to the letter. My baby just cried and was miserable, and I gave up quickly. I did work on sleep training for nights after that and it was (sorry for the cringy pun) night and day difference. I did timed checks so she wouldn’t fee abandoned, and it probably took 2-3 nights total. Afterwards, she was calmer and happier after having better sleep at night. She never really figured out naps until she dropped to one nap a day sometime after 12/18 months.

Only you can decide what’s best for you and your family, and you should make your choices. But, I would caution against using the nap training experience as a proxy for how night sleep training would go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, if sleep training won’t work for your child, you have to commit to doing something to help him sleep. If he’s wild with exhaustion, he needs help or medication or something. I’m a PP whose second child didn’t respond to sleep training, and my husband and I didn’t many nights sleeping while holding him in a chair! I spent several months sitting by his crib for an hour holding his hand til he fell asleep, even after he was able to sleep through the night. He finally starting falling asleep fast and staying asleep all night when we dropped his nap at 2.5.

To me, if you know you don’t want to CIO, just cosleep from the beginning. A lot of people who try to cosleep later either do it on nights where they are desperate bc their kid is having a particularly bad night, but it’s not going to work bc your kid is having a bad night that night. Or it’s such a novel thing that the kid can’t relax while cosleeping for the first couple nights.

I completely agree, I just haven’t found the answer. CMPA diet hasn’t fixed it. We’ve been to 3 different pediatricians who have all been dismissive and said she’s doing great. We’ve tried: cosleeping (huge failure), every sleep sack imaginable, Babywise schedule and many different bedtimes, mini crib, Snoo, bassinet, regular crib, our room, own room, different temperatures, solids, Dohm and Hatch sound machines, dad puts to sleep, mom puts to spring, dream feeds, “le pause”, a lovey, I could go on and on. We are trying. It’s all I think about. Trust me, the urgency of helping my child get enough sleep and avoid cognitive decline is not lost on me.

Despite her not getting enough sleep, she’s very happy and always wakes up happy, almost never cries, and is hitting her all milestones. I think that’s why pediatricians are blowing us off.

Sorry, I think I misunderstood part of the thread - I thought you said somewhere your child was tired and unhappy all day. But she’s actually happy, well rested, and meeting her milestones? So why do you say she’s not getting enough sleep?

OP here: She was unhappy all day when we tried co-sleeping for two weeks because she slept so unbelievably poorly.

And to the pp who asked about her total sleep, most days it’s 11 hours total so not enough: 8-9 at night, and 2-3 of naps (she still does 4 naps because she’ll only sleep 40 minutes and will only nap being held, which I’m also in total despair about and have tried many times to fix).

She may only be taking 40 minute naps because you’re still offering 4. My son didn’t stretch his naps beyond 30-40 minutes until we dropped to 2 and stretched to 3 hour wake windows all day. I couldn’t believe it but even being rocked to sleep for naps, he finally had enough sleep pressure to just connect sleep cycles on his own after being a chronic cat napper since 4 weeks old. I held to extend every nap until he was on 2.

Our days looked roughly like this once we dropped to 2 naps:
7am - wake up
10-11:30 am morning nap
2:30-4pm afternoon nap
7pm bedtime

Wasn’t always exactly like that but hour+ for both naps once we extended. If he didn’t get 3 hours of day sleep between the 2 naps, we’d put him to bed at 6/6:30 so he wasn’t overtired by bedtime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. We tried sleep training for naps (and yes, I have since learned you’re supposed to do nights first). It was a dismal failure. Hours of crying for every nap for 3 days only to have her wake up 15-30 minutes later crying not refreshed like all the sleep training zealots claim happens. It also alerted her personality and made her fearful, clingy, and sad for weeks. Again, there are reasons I am not interested in sleep training for nights.

Wow. I am pro sleep training, but parents that let their baby cry for hours without bothering to read a book about proper sleep training methods should really not sleep train at all. Please, if for whatever reason you change your mind, please read Precious Little Sleep before you try again.

We did not just leave her to cry. We did Ferber. I also read Precious Little Sleep cover to cover. SWAPs all failed. It annoys me that people don’t believe we have TRIED IT ALL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, if sleep training won’t work for your child, you have to commit to doing something to help him sleep. If he’s wild with exhaustion, he needs help or medication or something. I’m a PP whose second child didn’t respond to sleep training, and my husband and I didn’t many nights sleeping while holding him in a chair! I spent several months sitting by his crib for an hour holding his hand til he fell asleep, even after he was able to sleep through the night. He finally starting falling asleep fast and staying asleep all night when we dropped his nap at 2.5.

To me, if you know you don’t want to CIO, just cosleep from the beginning. A lot of people who try to cosleep later either do it on nights where they are desperate bc their kid is having a particularly bad night, but it’s not going to work bc your kid is having a bad night that night. Or it’s such a novel thing that the kid can’t relax while cosleeping for the first couple nights.

I completely agree, I just haven’t found the answer. CMPA diet hasn’t fixed it. We’ve been to 3 different pediatricians who have all been dismissive and said she’s doing great. We’ve tried: cosleeping (huge failure), every sleep sack imaginable, Babywise schedule and many different bedtimes, mini crib, Snoo, bassinet, regular crib, our room, own room, different temperatures, solids, Dohm and Hatch sound machines, dad puts to sleep, mom puts to spring, dream feeds, “le pause”, a lovey, I could go on and on. We are trying. It’s all I think about. Trust me, the urgency of helping my child get enough sleep and avoid cognitive decline is not lost on me.

Despite her not getting enough sleep, she’s very happy and always wakes up happy, almost never cries, and is hitting her all milestones. I think that’s why pediatricians are blowing us off.

Sorry, I think I misunderstood part of the thread - I thought you said somewhere your child was tired and unhappy all day. But she’s actually happy, well rested, and meeting her milestones? So why do you say she’s not getting enough sleep?

OP here: She was unhappy all day when we tried co-sleeping for two weeks because she slept so unbelievably poorly.

And to the pp who asked about her total sleep, most days it’s 11 hours total so not enough: 8-9 at night, and 2-3 of naps (she still does 4 naps because she’ll only sleep 40 minutes and will only nap being held, which I’m also in total despair about and have tried many times to fix).

She may only be taking 40 minute naps because you’re still offering 4. My son didn’t stretch his naps beyond 30-40 minutes until we dropped to 2 and stretched to 3 hour wake windows all day. I couldn’t believe it but even being rocked to sleep for naps, he finally had enough sleep pressure to just connect sleep cycles on his own after being a chronic cat napper since 4 weeks old. I held to extend every nap until he was on 2.

Our days looked roughly like this once we dropped to 2 naps:
7am - wake up
10-11:30 am morning nap
2:30-4pm afternoon nap
7pm bedtime

Wasn’t always exactly like that but hour+ for both naps once we extended. If he didn’t get 3 hours of day sleep between the 2 naps, we’d put him to bed at 6/6:30 so he wasn’t overtired by bedtime.

Were we doing 4 because she was still only sleeping 30-40 min with 3 naps but that was a while ago so maybe we should extend the wake windows and try again. Thank you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, if sleep training won’t work for your child, you have to commit to doing something to help him sleep. If he’s wild with exhaustion, he needs help or medication or something. I’m a PP whose second child didn’t respond to sleep training, and my husband and I didn’t many nights sleeping while holding him in a chair! I spent several months sitting by his crib for an hour holding his hand til he fell asleep, even after he was able to sleep through the night. He finally starting falling asleep fast and staying asleep all night when we dropped his nap at 2.5.

To me, if you know you don’t want to CIO, just cosleep from the beginning. A lot of people who try to cosleep later either do it on nights where they are desperate bc their kid is having a particularly bad night, but it’s not going to work bc your kid is having a bad night that night. Or it’s such a novel thing that the kid can’t relax while cosleeping for the first couple nights.

I completely agree, I just haven’t found the answer. CMPA diet hasn’t fixed it. We’ve been to 3 different pediatricians who have all been dismissive and said she’s doing great. We’ve tried: cosleeping (huge failure), every sleep sack imaginable, Babywise schedule and many different bedtimes, mini crib, Snoo, bassinet, regular crib, our room, own room, different temperatures, solids, Dohm and Hatch sound machines, dad puts to sleep, mom puts to spring, dream feeds, “le pause”, a lovey, I could go on and on. We are trying. It’s all I think about. Trust me, the urgency of helping my child get enough sleep and avoid cognitive decline is not lost on me.

Despite her not getting enough sleep, she’s very happy and always wakes up happy, almost never cries, and is hitting her all milestones. I think that’s why pediatricians are blowing us off.

Sorry, I think I misunderstood part of the thread - I thought you said somewhere your child was tired and unhappy all day. But she’s actually happy, well rested, and meeting her milestones? So why do you say she’s not getting enough sleep?

OP here: She was unhappy all day when we tried co-sleeping for two weeks because she slept so unbelievably poorly.

And to the pp who asked about her total sleep, most days it’s 11 hours total so not enough: 8-9 at night, and 2-3 of naps (she still does 4 naps because she’ll only sleep 40 minutes and will only nap being held, which I’m also in total despair about and have tried many times to fix).

I really think you are driving yourself crazy with too high expectations.

If your daughter is happy and meeting milestones on 11 hrs of sleep and you’ve tried everything to change it, then she probably does not need more sleep! For my son who was a “bad sleeper,” he pretty much always got 11 hrs of sleep, and it took dropping naps completely to put all those 11 hrs at night.

I think you need to let go of your nap ideas. My first baby, who slept through the night 12 hrs at 4 months, I actually held her for naps til she was 10 months old! There was a time where she was taking 2 35-min naps during the day, and it was fine! It’s not what the books said, but she was happy and growing great. Maybe your 4 naps is why she doesn’t sleep well at night? Also I’m imagining that you’re spending a lot of time settling down for these naps instead of being up and outside and exploring and using her energy.

OP here. This is a really interesting post. Maybe you are right. I guess I find it hard to believe my child is so weird/special that somehow she just doesn’t need even close to the amount of sleep all other babies need. I’m worried she seems fine but it’s actually affecting her development and we’ll just never know what she would have been like had she gotten enough sleep. But maybe you’re right and she’s fine and I need to lower my expectations and accept she’s abnormal but fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. We tried sleep training for naps (and yes, I have since learned you’re supposed to do nights first). It was a dismal failure. Hours of crying for every nap for 3 days only to have her wake up 15-30 minutes later crying not refreshed like all the sleep training zealots claim happens. It also alerted her personality and made her fearful, clingy, and sad for weeks. Again, there are reasons I am not interested in sleep training for nights.

Wow. I am pro sleep training, but parents that let their baby cry for hours without bothering to read a book about proper sleep training methods should really not sleep train at all. Please, if for whatever reason you change your mind, please read Precious Little Sleep before you try again.

We did not just leave her to cry. We did Ferber. I also read Precious Little Sleep cover to cover. SWAPs all failed. It annoys me that people don’t believe we have TRIED IT ALL.

I did not say you left her to cry, I said you LET her cry. These books will all tell you to night train before nap training, so clearly you didn't read them very carefully.

You said in your OP that you have "exhausted everything else" besides sleep training. Now you are saying you TRIED IT ALL. Something is not adding up here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, if sleep training won’t work for your child, you have to commit to doing something to help him sleep. If he’s wild with exhaustion, he needs help or medication or something. I’m a PP whose second child didn’t respond to sleep training, and my husband and I didn’t many nights sleeping while holding him in a chair! I spent several months sitting by his crib for an hour holding his hand til he fell asleep, even after he was able to sleep through the night. He finally starting falling asleep fast and staying asleep all night when we dropped his nap at 2.5.

To me, if you know you don’t want to CIO, just cosleep from the beginning. A lot of people who try to cosleep later either do it on nights where they are desperate bc their kid is having a particularly bad night, but it’s not going to work bc your kid is having a bad night that night. Or it’s such a novel thing that the kid can’t relax while cosleeping for the first couple nights.

I completely agree, I just haven’t found the answer. CMPA diet hasn’t fixed it. We’ve been to 3 different pediatricians who have all been dismissive and said she’s doing great. We’ve tried: cosleeping (huge failure), every sleep sack imaginable, Babywise schedule and many different bedtimes, mini crib, Snoo, bassinet, regular crib, our room, own room, different temperatures, solids, Dohm and Hatch sound machines, dad puts to sleep, mom puts to spring, dream feeds, “le pause”, a lovey, I could go on and on. We are trying. It’s all I think about. Trust me, the urgency of helping my child get enough sleep and avoid cognitive decline is not lost on me.

Despite her not getting enough sleep, she’s very happy and always wakes up happy, almost never cries, and is hitting her all milestones. I think that’s why pediatricians are blowing us off.

Sorry, I think I misunderstood part of the thread - I thought you said somewhere your child was tired and unhappy all day. But she’s actually happy, well rested, and meeting her milestones? So why do you say she’s not getting enough sleep?

OP here: She was unhappy all day when we tried co-sleeping for two weeks because she slept so unbelievably poorly.

And to the pp who asked about her total sleep, most days it’s 11 hours total so not enough: 8-9 at night, and 2-3 of naps (she still does 4 naps because she’ll only sleep 40 minutes and will only nap being held, which I’m also in total despair about and have tried many times to fix).

I really think you are driving yourself crazy with too high expectations.

If your daughter is happy and meeting milestones on 11 hrs of sleep and you’ve tried everything to change it, then she probably does not need more sleep! For my son who was a “bad sleeper,” he pretty much always got 11 hrs of sleep, and it took dropping naps completely to put all those 11 hrs at night.

I think you need to let go of your nap ideas. My first baby, who slept through the night 12 hrs at 4 months, I actually held her for naps til she was 10 months old! There was a time where she was taking 2 35-min naps during the day, and it was fine! It’s not what the books said, but she was happy and growing great. Maybe your 4 naps is why she doesn’t sleep well at night? Also I’m imagining that you’re spending a lot of time settling down for these naps instead of being up and outside and exploring and using her energy.

OP here. This is a really interesting post. Maybe you are right. I guess I find it hard to believe my child is so weird/special that somehow she just doesn’t need even close to the amount of sleep all other babies need. I’m worried she seems fine but it’s actually affecting her development and we’ll just never know what she would have been like had she gotten enough sleep. But maybe you’re right and she’s fine and I need to lower my expectations and accept she’s abnormal but fine.

Worried horribly about my horrible napper/good night sleeper too. She only slept 23 minutes at a time 3-4 times a day until she was like six months old and never got as much sleeps as the newborn things said she should. Then she was normal for 6-24 months. She’s two now and has suddenly decided she either needs 10 hours of sleep a night OR a 2 hour nap, definitely not both. While I hope your kid starts sleeping better so YOU can get sleep, I wouldn’t be quite so stressed about whether her low sleep needs are harming her if the ped isn’t concerned.