If you had a bad sleeper but didn’t sleep train…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, if sleep training won’t work for your child, you have to commit to doing something to help him sleep. If he’s wild with exhaustion, he needs help or medication or something. I’m a PP whose second child didn’t respond to sleep training, and my husband and I didn’t many nights sleeping while holding him in a chair! I spent several months sitting by his crib for an hour holding his hand til he fell asleep, even after he was able to sleep through the night. He finally starting falling asleep fast and staying asleep all night when we dropped his nap at 2.5.

To me, if you know you don’t want to CIO, just cosleep from the beginning. A lot of people who try to cosleep later either do it on nights where they are desperate bc their kid is having a particularly bad night, but it’s not going to work bc your kid is having a bad night that night. Or it’s such a novel thing that the kid can’t relax while cosleeping for the first couple nights.

I completely agree, I just haven’t found the answer. CMPA diet hasn’t fixed it. We’ve been to 3 different pediatricians who have all been dismissive and said she’s doing great. We’ve tried: cosleeping (huge failure), every sleep sack imaginable, Babywise schedule and many different bedtimes, mini crib, Snoo, bassinet, regular crib, our room, own room, different temperatures, solids, Dohm and Hatch sound machines, dad puts to sleep, mom puts to spring, dream feeds, “le pause”, a lovey, I could go on and on. We are trying. It’s all I think about. Trust me, the urgency of helping my child get enough sleep and avoid cognitive decline is not lost on me.

Despite her not getting enough sleep, she’s very happy and always wakes up happy, almost never cries, and is hitting her all milestones. I think that’s why pediatricians are blowing us off.

Sorry, I think I misunderstood part of the thread - I thought you said somewhere your child was tired and unhappy all day. But she’s actually happy, well rested, and meeting her milestones? So why do you say she’s not getting enough sleep?

OP here: She was unhappy all day when we tried co-sleeping for two weeks because she slept so unbelievably poorly.

And to the pp who asked about her total sleep, most days it’s 11 hours total so not enough: 8-9 at night, and 2-3 of naps (she still does 4 naps because she’ll only sleep 40 minutes and will only nap being held, which I’m also in total despair about and have tried many times to fix).

I really think you are driving yourself crazy with too high expectations.

If your daughter is happy and meeting milestones on 11 hrs of sleep and you’ve tried everything to change it, then she probably does not need more sleep! For my son who was a “bad sleeper,” he pretty much always got 11 hrs of sleep, and it took dropping naps completely to put all those 11 hrs at night.

I think you need to let go of your nap ideas. My first baby, who slept through the night 12 hrs at 4 months, I actually held her for naps til she was 10 months old! There was a time where she was taking 2 35-min naps during the day, and it was fine! It’s not what the books said, but she was happy and growing great. Maybe your 4 naps is why she doesn’t sleep well at night? Also I’m imagining that you’re spending a lot of time settling down for these naps instead of being up and outside and exploring and using her energy.

OP here. This is a really interesting post. Maybe you are right. I guess I find it hard to believe my child is so weird/special that somehow she just doesn’t need even close to the amount of sleep all other babies need. I’m worried she seems fine but it’s actually affecting her development and we’ll just never know what she would have been like had she gotten enough sleep. But maybe you’re right and she’s fine and I need to lower my expectations and accept she’s abnormal but fine.

Worried horribly about my horrible napper/good night sleeper too. She only slept 23 minutes at a time 3-4 times a day until she was like six months old and never got as much sleeps as the newborn things said she should. Then she was normal for 6-24 months. She’s two now and has suddenly decided she either needs 10 hours of sleep a night OR a 2 hour nap, definitely not both. While I hope your kid starts sleeping better so YOU can get sleep, I wouldn’t be quite so stressed about whether her low sleep needs are harming her if the ped isn’t concerned.

Person above who posted about a chronic cat napper until we dropped to 2 naps. Basically same experience. Never slept all day like every other newborn and I worried so much. He’s totally fine now and a normal sleeper since we dropped to 2 (now 1) naps. Will be interesting to see if he drops naps altogether earlier than many - trending that way with 2 naps at 6 months and 1 nap right at 12 months. Always a few months ahead of our friends with the nap transitions but very happy and healthy.

Don’t stress it OP. The range of normal is so much wider than many of the books and blogs would have you believe.

[Anonymous]

+1 to the posters saying sleep train at night, not for naps. One of our kids was a disaster to get down for naps. He stopped napping when he was two years old, which was great for us but terrible for his daycare.

And we never let him cry for hours. We kept a routine for bedtime, then progressively lengthened the amount of time between checks-ins. And when we went in, we didn't pick him up - we just rubbed his back for a while in the crib.

For our other son, we would sometimes lay down on the floor next to the crib if he was having a really rough night.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:+1 to the posters saying sleep train at night, not for naps. One of our kids was a disaster to get down for naps. He stopped napping when he was two years old, which was great for us but terrible for his daycare.

And we never let him cry for hours. We kept a routine for bedtime, then progressively lengthened the amount of time between checks-ins. And when we went in, we didn't pick him up - we just rubbed his back for a while in the crib.

For our other son, we would sometimes lay down on the floor next to the crib if he was having a really rough night.

OP: she screams harder if we pat/rub/hold hand and don’t pick up. She’s not crying for our presence. She wants us to boob/rock her back to sleep, that’s it. That’s why cosleeping didn’t work. It’s not comfort she’s after.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not a crunchy mom, I am more a Cheetos-and-Cocomelon mom, but I just could not do anything that even vaguely approached sleep training. Kid woke up every 90 min for two solid years. I lived in the city and I didn’t work so it was doable.

Magically kid started sleeping thru the night at 2. Really nothing had changed, he just one day? out of no where? slept all night. It was and is glorious. That day will come for you, too.

Are you really recommending a family not sleep well for 2 years or 8?

It's a really personal decision. For me, I remember watching the news stories about the romanian orphanages. and then, growing in the dc area, meeting those kids who had been adopted into the US...letting babies cry themselves to sleep, vomit from fear, accept that no caretaker is coming to soothe them-- it just seemed too similar to how those kids were raised.

I understand why people sleep train--if you have to work to support your family, you need sleep to function. But on a deeply personal level, i could not do it. I shared my story because I think people take advantage of the fear of young parents, telling them that if they don't sleep train, that their kid will never learn to sleep on their own, that they will be 8 before it happens, etc. And it's just not true.

You are a very dramatic person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:+1 to the posters saying sleep train at night, not for naps. One of our kids was a disaster to get down for naps. He stopped napping when he was two years old, which was great for us but terrible for his daycare.

And we never let him cry for hours. We kept a routine for bedtime, then progressively lengthened the amount of time between checks-ins. And when we went in, we didn't pick him up - we just rubbed his back for a while in the crib.

For our other son, we would sometimes lay down on the floor next to the crib if he was having a really rough night.

OP: she screams harder if we pat/rub/hold hand and don’t pick up. She’s not crying for our presence. She wants us to boob/rock her back to sleep, that’s it. That’s why cosleeping didn’t work. It’s not comfort she’s after.

DP we tried the gentle method of sleep training. I would try just holding her without bouncing and planned to slowly phase things out. But like you say she just screamed when we did that. My experience with my own child is that we could either go all in on full extinction CIO, or do nothing at all. The in between "gentle" methods were just confusing for her, and therefore, cruel.

You've said several times you don't want to sleep train. So stop trying to sleep train! She wants you to bounce her to sleep, so that is what you need to do if you don't want to teach her another way to fall asleep. Honestly if you are not all in, it's really not fair to your child.

[Anonymous]

My baby was a terrible sleeper, woke multiple times a night until one night around 15 months old, she just started sleeping through the night. Never sleep trained.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:+1 to the posters saying sleep train at night, not for naps. One of our kids was a disaster to get down for naps. He stopped napping when he was two years old, which was great for us but terrible for his daycare.

And we never let him cry for hours. We kept a routine for bedtime, then progressively lengthened the amount of time between checks-ins. And when we went in, we didn't pick him up - we just rubbed his back for a while in the crib.

For our other son, we would sometimes lay down on the floor next to the crib if he was having a really rough night.

OP: she screams harder if we pat/rub/hold hand and don’t pick up. She’s not crying for our presence. She wants us to boob/rock her back to sleep, that’s it. That’s why cosleeping didn’t work. It’s not comfort she’s after.

DP we tried the gentle method of sleep training. I would try just holding her without bouncing and planned to slowly phase things out. But like you say she just screamed when we did that. My experience with my own child is that we could either go all in on full extinction CIO, or do nothing at all. The in between "gentle" methods were just confusing for her, and therefore, cruel.

You've said several times you don't want to sleep train. So stop trying to sleep train! She wants you to bounce her to sleep, so that is what you need to do if you don't want to teach her another way to fall asleep. Honestly if you are not all in, it's really not fair to your child.

Fair. Thanks. The sleep deprivation has made me stupid: “Maybe THIS time/way it will work…”

[Anonymous]

To answer OP's original question...

Both my SILs were opposed to sleep training. Nephew started sleeping longer (5+ hours) at 18 months and he's now an excellent sleeper at 7 years old. Niece (not same family) was such an awful sleeper. I'm sorry to say she's still waking multiple times a night at 2.5 years old. My SIL sleeps in with her. I hope you get some longer stretches soon. It will get better eventually but just impossible to say precisely when. It's so much better when they can tell you what's wrong - for example, my niece tells her mother that her legs hurt at night. So growing pains must be a part of her poor sleeping.

I did sleep training with both my kids around 6 months, but that's just my personal preference. I have no problem with people parenting differently - it doesn't make me feel insecure about my own choices Both my SILs are wonderful mothers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To answer OP's original question...

Both my SILs were opposed to sleep training. Nephew started sleeping longer (5+ hours) at 18 months and he's now an excellent sleeper at 7 years old. Niece (not same family) was such an awful sleeper. I'm sorry to say she's still waking multiple times a night at 2.5 years old. My SIL sleeps in with her. I hope you get some longer stretches soon. It will get better eventually but just impossible to say precisely when. It's so much better when they can tell you what's wrong - for example, my niece tells her mother that her legs hurt at night. So growing pains must be a part of her poor sleeping.

I did sleep training with both my kids around 6 months, but that's just my personal preference. I have no problem with people parenting differently - it doesn't make me feel insecure about my own choices Both my SILs are wonderful mothers.

Magnesium may help your niece. Calm for kids is great! Epsom salt baths before bed can help. Calcium and Vit D deficiency. Massages and stretching.

Personally tight ankles/calves run in my family so with lots of running and jumping the ankles, calves, and hips can get sore. My son has inherited it so we are working on mobility and stretching daily. Also really good shoes make a difference. Im obsessed with sandals because I hate wearing shoes but they arent usually good for walking/daily use. I limit my son to only wearing at the pool and going barefoot around the house. Flip flops are the worst but I love my rainbows. They are beach only now. These legs need support now.

[Anonymous]

My sister did not sleep train her almost 3 year old. She does not sleep. Basically the whole family doesn’t sleep. They are up multiple times every night, still. Their lives, work, marriage, and health is taking a big hit because they are so tired. I have no idea when my niece will figure it out, she obviously will eventually, but it seems like it will be a while.

[Anonymous]

I never sleep trained my 11 year old…he coslept until he was 9/10, and has always struggled with sleep. He takes melatonin every night to sleep. I feel so bad he struggles so much.

I have a 3 month old daughter now who I have been lightly sleep training (just good sleep habits really), and she sleeps 11-12 hours a night with just 2 wakes to eat then goes right back to sleep in her crib. She also gets an appropriate amount of naps during the day (totaling 4-5 hours) and is such a happy baby.

My biggest regret was that I didn’t help my son learn good habits and it’s still impacting him . Trying to avoid the same with my daughter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I never sleep trained my 11 year old…he coslept until he was 9/10, and has always struggled with sleep. He takes melatonin every night to sleep. I feel so bad he struggles so much.

I have a 3 month old daughter now who I have been lightly sleep training (just good sleep habits really), and she sleeps 11-12 hours a night with just 2 wakes to eat then goes right back to sleep in her crib. She also gets an appropriate amount of naps during the day (totaling 4-5 hours) and is such a happy baby.

My biggest regret was that I didn’t help my son learn good habits and it’s still impacting him . Trying to avoid the same with my daughter.

OP here. I did all that when she was a newborn, and she slept 10.5 hours a night with only one wake up until one morning at 2.5 months she just decided she was never going to sleep independently again. Trust me, not all these things are parents’ fault or controllable.

[Anonymous]

My horrible sleeper also had CMPI. Any milk or milks derivatives triggered night terrors from 12 months old. He hated naps and dropped them around 2 - even as an infant he would only take a total of 1 hour of naps if it wasn’t a contact nap. He went from asleep to gagging/vomiting screaming with no in between. He was constantly teething between 6 m and 2 years old (all of his teeth including pre-molars came in by 2). He didn’t STTN (5-7 hours) until he was 1.5. Around 2.5 he started sleeping for 10-12 hours with no sleep training. I might weaned at 2.25 so it wasn’t tied to that.

What worked for us:

Cosleep - he loved it and I got sleep. He also was a reverse cycler and only took minimal from bottles at daycare. Moved him to his own bed for bedtime around 18 months but he would still end up with us after his middle of the nurse. Relatedly, he finally decided food was awesome at 18 months and would actually eat meals. The food came before the move to his own bed.

Early bedtime - he went to sleep by 5/5:30. He is a naturally early waker and trying to keep him up so he’d sleep later was counter productive. Once he dropped his nap, trying to get him to nap was also counter productive as he ended up with less sleep over all.

Rocked to sleep and a floor bed - he never transferred well but a floor bed let me slip away easily.

Good luck OP. I remember horrible sleep and was prepared to do it again with #2. He slept in 4-5 hour stretches coming home from the hospital.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My horrible sleeper also had CMPI. Any milk or milks derivatives triggered night terrors from 12 months old. He hated naps and dropped them around 2 - even as an infant he would only take a total of 1 hour of naps if it wasn’t a contact nap. He went from asleep to gagging/vomiting screaming with no in between. He was constantly teething between 6 m and 2 years old (all of his teeth including pre-molars came in by 2). He didn’t STTN (5-7 hours) until he was 1.5. Around 2.5 he started sleeping for 10-12 hours with no sleep training. I might weaned at 2.25 so it wasn’t tied to that.

What worked for us:

Cosleep - he loved it and I got sleep. He also was a reverse cycler and only took minimal from bottles at daycare. Moved him to his own bed for bedtime around 18 months but he would still end up with us after his middle of the nurse. Relatedly, he finally decided food was awesome at 18 months and would actually eat meals. The food came before the move to his own bed.

Early bedtime - he went to sleep by 5/5:30. He is a naturally early waker and trying to keep him up so he’d sleep later was counter productive. Once he dropped his nap, trying to get him to nap was also counter productive as he ended up with less sleep over all.

Rocked to sleep and a floor bed - he never transferred well but a floor bed let me slip away easily.

Good luck OP. I remember horrible sleep and was prepared to do it again with #2. He slept in 4-5 hour stretches coming home from the hospital.

Forgot to add - my horrible sleeper is 5.5 now. He goes to bed at 6:30 and sleeps until 5:30.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:+1 to the posters saying sleep train at night, not for naps. One of our kids was a disaster to get down for naps. He stopped napping when he was two years old, which was great for us but terrible for his daycare.

And we never let him cry for hours. We kept a routine for bedtime, then progressively lengthened the amount of time between checks-ins. And when we went in, we didn't pick him up - we just rubbed his back for a while in the crib.

For our other son, we would sometimes lay down on the floor next to the crib if he was having a really rough night.

OP: she screams harder if we pat/rub/hold hand and don’t pick up. She’s not crying for our presence. She wants us to boob/rock her back to sleep, that’s it. That’s why cosleeping didn’t work. It’s not comfort she’s after.

DP we tried the gentle method of sleep training. I would try just holding her without bouncing and planned to slowly phase things out. But like you say she just screamed when we did that. My experience with my own child is that we could either go all in on full extinction CIO, or do nothing at all. The in between "gentle" methods were just confusing for her, and therefore, cruel.

You've said several times you don't want to sleep train. So stop trying to sleep train! She wants you to bounce her to sleep, so that is what you need to do if you don't want to teach her another way to fall asleep. Honestly if you are not all in, it's really not fair to your child.

Fair. Thanks. The sleep deprivation has made me stupid: “Maybe THIS time/way it will work…”

Full extinction will work.