If you had a bad sleeper but didn’t sleep train…

[Anonymous]

I taught both of my younger kids how to fall asleep on their own without crying at about three months. However, each parent still sleeps in the same room (not cosleeping) due to the layout of the house and a nighttime wanderer. We all sleep very well so I don’t have any complaints.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Can all those who want to argue about sleep training please leave the thread? I posted the way I did specifically because I didn’t want this thread to get detailed with another tedious sleep training debate. There are SO many places you can go argue about that!

Please just post your experience if you didn’t sleep train. No advice please, just experience. Thank you.

LOL this is DCUM. This happens every time someone posts about sleep training. If you want compassionate responses you should try the BreakingMom Reddit.

But here's my experience, since you asked. We did not do CIO, defined as letting a our child cry indefinitely, until 13 months. We were terrified of it. We did let her cry for 5 minutes around 4 months, and after that she was able to put herself to sleep. However, she never consistently slept through the night during that first year, and after we got into a bad habit of feeding her to sleep circa 9 months, things slowly went downhill, such that she was waking up every 1-2 hours by the time she was 12 months old. Maybe if we had waiting several more months, she would have learned to STTN by herself or at least stop waking up so often, but we were going insane. So my experience is it probably won't get better by itself anytime soon. What I have heard is generally around 2 years many children that weren't sleeping well before then do better.

Helpful, thank you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, is the problem just the number of night wakes or is it also really difficult to get her down to sleep for the night (i.e lots of wakes on transfers and having to start the whole thing over)? If she goes down relatively easily but is just waking a bunch to nurse back to sleep, you could try to gently night wean her. She’s only 7 months, so maybe pick a cut off time to keep a night feed (say one feed after 6 hours or whatever) but otherwise send your husband in to do the soothing back to sleep via rocking, singing, bouncing, whatever works for her. If she (and he) are used to you simply nursing her back to sleep for every wake, the first few nights will likely be hard. But hopefully she gets the hang of it, goes back to sleep with other forms of comfort from the non milk source, and without multiple night feeds, stops waking so frequently.

This is what did the trick for my son around the same age. Though instead of a cut off time, we did a dream feed around 11pm to be sure he was full. Once he got used to my husband responding to night feeds without milk, he stopped waking, and we cut the dream feed a month or two later when he was solidly eating 2 meals a day on top of milk.

I had been considering night weaning so this helps. Since I’m breastfeeding it’s hard to know how much she’s taking and whether she’s truly hungry but my sense is it’s more for comfort since she used to only wake once a night to feed and now wakes many times throughout the night. I’m so tired I forget to think of things like this. Thank you

Pp here. Mine was similar though bottlefed during the day so a bit easier to know. He had gone down to 0-1 night feed before the 4 month regression when sleep became an all out battle. Then we just got in the groove of it being easiest to nurse back to sleep for the night wakes. But I noticed he was barely taking his morning bottle feed after we got in this pattern. So when we switched to an 11pm dream feed and then otherwise sent my husband in to respond to wakes, he was suddenly taking a full feed again in the morning. This set us up for more regular full feeds all day too. And I think was a snowball effect for him sleeping better at night.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, if sleep training won’t work for your child, you have to commit to doing something to help him sleep. If he’s wild with exhaustion, he needs help or medication or something. I’m a PP whose second child didn’t respond to sleep training, and my husband and I didn’t many nights sleeping while holding him in a chair! I spent several months sitting by his crib for an hour holding his hand til he fell asleep, even after he was able to sleep through the night. He finally starting falling asleep fast and staying asleep all night when we dropped his nap at 2.5.

To me, if you know you don’t want to CIO, just cosleep from the beginning. A lot of people who try to cosleep later either do it on nights where they are desperate bc their kid is having a particularly bad night, but it’s not going to work bc your kid is having a bad night that night. Or it’s such a novel thing that the kid can’t relax while cosleeping for the first couple nights.

I completely agree, I just haven’t found the answer. CMPA diet hasn’t fixed it. We’ve been to 3 different pediatricians who have all been dismissive and said she’s doing great. We’ve tried: cosleeping (huge failure), every sleep sack imaginable, Babywise schedule and many different bedtimes, mini crib, Snoo, bassinet, regular crib, our room, own room, different temperatures, solids, Dohm and Hatch sound machines, dad puts to sleep, mom puts to spring, dream feeds, “le pause”, a lovey, I could go on and on. We are trying. It’s all I think about. Trust me, the urgency of helping my child get enough sleep and avoid cognitive decline is not lost on me.

Despite her not getting enough sleep, she’s very happy and always wakes up happy, almost never cries, and is hitting her all milestones. I think that’s why pediatricians are blowing us off.

[Anonymous]

Janet Lansbury (who famously has no RIE advice on sleep because it’s such a tough subject) recently had a podcast episode with a sleep coach. The part that sticks out to me is that she recommends mastering the nap—with observation, minimal crying, darkness, all the hygiene—before even thinking about nighttime sleep. The expert said this teaches the baby how to fall asleep and allows the parent to focus without the ominous stress of bedtime. I’m past this stage so haven’t tried it myself but I would have (I am one of the posters who wouldn’t CIO). Wishing you luck!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have you tried bedsharing/co-sleeping (assuming safe sleep 7)? It may be the key to getting better rest with a bad sleeper without sleep training. It’s exhausting getting up multiple times a night to resettle them in their crib only to have them wake up again on transfer or an hour or 2 later.

I’m this PP and just want to add that we did sleep train at 6 months despite my initially being opposed to it. I totally respect not wanting to which is why I offered this suggestion, but I found my attachment to my kid was deteriorating on sleep deprivation - I was impatient, short fuse, even ragey with everyone. Sleep training was awful, I won’t sugar coat it, but it was pretty quick and he’s been a great sleeper ever since. And I’m well rested and happy and have all the patience in the world to gentle parent him and nurture our attachment. I read a lot of things that scared me tons about sleep training but ultimately bedsharing didn’t work for our family for a variety of reasons and I’m happy to report my almost 2 year old is happily, securely attached to me and has been incredibly well rested since he was 6 months old after a few rough nights.

I know many anti-sleep training advocates would say my reasons were selfish but my lack of patience for an infant on lack of sleep was not healthy for anyone. I do not regret the decision at all, in hindsight.

Ditto. My child is happy and well-rested. We spend great days together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not a crunchy mom, I am more a Cheetos-and-Cocomelon mom, but I just could not do anything that even vaguely approached sleep training. Kid woke up every 90 min for two solid years. I lived in the city and I didn’t work so it was doable.

Magically kid started sleeping thru the night at 2. Really nothing had changed, he just one day? out of no where? slept all night. It was and is glorious. That day will come for you, too.

Are you really recommending a family not sleep well for 2 years or 8?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, if sleep training won’t work for your child, you have to commit to doing something to help him sleep. If he’s wild with exhaustion, he needs help or medication or something. I’m a PP whose second child didn’t respond to sleep training, and my husband and I didn’t many nights sleeping while holding him in a chair! I spent several months sitting by his crib for an hour holding his hand til he fell asleep, even after he was able to sleep through the night. He finally starting falling asleep fast and staying asleep all night when we dropped his nap at 2.5.

To me, if you know you don’t want to CIO, just cosleep from the beginning. A lot of people who try to cosleep later either do it on nights where they are desperate bc their kid is having a particularly bad night, but it’s not going to work bc your kid is having a bad night that night. Or it’s such a novel thing that the kid can’t relax while cosleeping for the first couple nights.

I completely agree, I just haven’t found the answer. CMPA diet hasn’t fixed it. We’ve been to 3 different pediatricians who have all been dismissive and said she’s doing great. We’ve tried: cosleeping (huge failure), every sleep sack imaginable, Babywise schedule and many different bedtimes, mini crib, Snoo, bassinet, regular crib, our room, own room, different temperatures, solids, Dohm and Hatch sound machines, dad puts to sleep, mom puts to spring, dream feeds, “le pause”, a lovey, I could go on and on. We are trying. It’s all I think about. Trust me, the urgency of helping my child get enough sleep and avoid cognitive decline is not lost on me.

Despite her not getting enough sleep, she’s very happy and always wakes up happy, almost never cries, and is hitting her all milestones. I think that’s why pediatricians are blowing us off.

Can I ask how much total sleep she gets in 24hours? Much is made about nighttime sleep but as long as she is meeting the average 24hr needs she is fine. 12-16 hours TOTAL is considered normal. The stories you hear about kids who sleep 12 hours overnight and still nap 2x for 1-2 hours are at the other end of the spectrum. If your kid sleeps 8hrs total over the night (8p-8am with 2 wakeups) and has (2) 1.5 hour+ naps plus a mini nap of 30-1hr she is getting enough sleep. It isnt the way you want it or isnt the way our society typically works but that might be what she needs.

I really think that some kids who take until 2/3 to sleep overnight for long stretches are frequent or long nappers. They prefer sleep in bits vs one long consolidated sleep. Every kid I know who sleep 10-12 hours overnight at some young age is either on the high end of sleep needs (upper limit or over so 16-17 hours for a 7month old) or they drop naps faster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m the “delusional” PP. You would be surprised how many parents have shared with me that they also refused to CIO but can’t say it openly because people like you are so judgmental and certain you have it all figured out. One is a neonatologist.

I don’t think my children are “better” than yours in any way, and it says something about you that you phrase things so crudely. What I do believe: my children were exposed to less stress during the first two years of their life. With skyrocketing childhood anxiety, it was worth it to me. I also felt that because I didn’t breastfeed I didn’t want to cut off another channel of attachment—being gently put to sleep.

Please don’t lump all of us in some “mommy martyr” category because it makes you feel better. I hold firm boundaries with my kids and have no issue saying no, never coslept, minimal baby wearing, allow candy and tv, etc. CIO was a bridge too far and my pov is more common than you might think.

I don't believe that. Millenials are really into gentle parenting and shit. Not sleep training is not looked down apart.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, if sleep training won’t work for your child, you have to commit to doing something to help him sleep. If he’s wild with exhaustion, he needs help or medication or something. I’m a PP whose second child didn’t respond to sleep training, and my husband and I didn’t many nights sleeping while holding him in a chair! I spent several months sitting by his crib for an hour holding his hand til he fell asleep, even after he was able to sleep through the night. He finally starting falling asleep fast and staying asleep all night when we dropped his nap at 2.5.

To me, if you know you don’t want to CIO, just cosleep from the beginning. A lot of people who try to cosleep later either do it on nights where they are desperate bc their kid is having a particularly bad night, but it’s not going to work bc your kid is having a bad night that night. Or it’s such a novel thing that the kid can’t relax while cosleeping for the first couple nights.

I completely agree, I just haven’t found the answer. CMPA diet hasn’t fixed it. We’ve been to 3 different pediatricians who have all been dismissive and said she’s doing great. We’ve tried: cosleeping (huge failure), every sleep sack imaginable, Babywise schedule and many different bedtimes, mini crib, Snoo, bassinet, regular crib, our room, own room, different temperatures, solids, Dohm and Hatch sound machines, dad puts to sleep, mom puts to spring, dream feeds, “le pause”, a lovey, I could go on and on. We are trying. It’s all I think about. Trust me, the urgency of helping my child get enough sleep and avoid cognitive decline is not lost on me.

Despite her not getting enough sleep, she’s very happy and always wakes up happy, almost never cries, and is hitting her all milestones. I think that’s why pediatricians are blowing us off.

Sorry, I think I misunderstood part of the thread - I thought you said somewhere your child was tired and unhappy all day. But she’s actually happy, well rested, and meeting her milestones? So why do you say she’s not getting enough sleep?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the “delusional” PP. You would be surprised how many parents have shared with me that they also refused to CIO but can’t say it openly because people like you are so judgmental and certain you have it all figured out. One is a neonatologist.

I don’t think my children are “better” than yours in any way, and it says something about you that you phrase things so crudely. What I do believe: my children were exposed to less stress during the first two years of their life. With skyrocketing childhood anxiety, it was worth it to me. I also felt that because I didn’t breastfeed I didn’t want to cut off another channel of attachment—being gently put to sleep.

Please don’t lump all of us in some “mommy martyr” category because it makes you feel better. I hold firm boundaries with my kids and have no issue saying no, never coslept, minimal baby wearing, allow candy and tv, etc. CIO was a bridge too far and my pov is more common than you might think.

I don't believe that. Millenials are really into gentle parenting and shit. Not sleep training is not looked down apart.

DP. This is not my experience as a millennial. Anyone who doesn’t sleep train is considered a martyr. All pediatricians tell you to sleep train these days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m the “delusional” PP. You would be surprised how many parents have shared with me that they also refused to CIO but can’t say it openly because people like you are so judgmental and certain you have it all figured out. One is a neonatologist.

I don’t think my children are “better” than yours in any way, and it says something about you that you phrase things so crudely. What I do believe: my children were exposed to less stress during the first two years of their life. With skyrocketing childhood anxiety, it was worth it to me. I also felt that because I didn’t breastfeed I didn’t want to cut off another channel of attachment—being gently put to sleep.

Please don’t lump all of us in some “mommy martyr” category because it makes you feel better. I hold firm boundaries with my kids and have no issue saying no, never coslept, minimal baby wearing, allow candy and tv, etc. CIO was a bridge too far and my pov is more common than you might think.

DP and sorry to burst your bubble, but my DD was sleep trained in literally 18 minutes. You probably stressed your kid out more eventually taking away their pacifier (which mine never used) than whatever brain-bending trauma you think I inflicted on my kid with sleep training. Anxiety is largely genetic and starting with a mom who worries about their kid developing anxiety when they're 4 months old is the definition of "behind the 8 ball."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, if sleep training won’t work for your child, you have to commit to doing something to help him sleep. If he’s wild with exhaustion, he needs help or medication or something. I’m a PP whose second child didn’t respond to sleep training, and my husband and I didn’t many nights sleeping while holding him in a chair! I spent several months sitting by his crib for an hour holding his hand til he fell asleep, even after he was able to sleep through the night. He finally starting falling asleep fast and staying asleep all night when we dropped his nap at 2.5.

To me, if you know you don’t want to CIO, just cosleep from the beginning. A lot of people who try to cosleep later either do it on nights where they are desperate bc their kid is having a particularly bad night, but it’s not going to work bc your kid is having a bad night that night. Or it’s such a novel thing that the kid can’t relax while cosleeping for the first couple nights.

I completely agree, I just haven’t found the answer. CMPA diet hasn’t fixed it. We’ve been to 3 different pediatricians who have all been dismissive and said she’s doing great. We’ve tried: cosleeping (huge failure), every sleep sack imaginable, Babywise schedule and many different bedtimes, mini crib, Snoo, bassinet, regular crib, our room, own room, different temperatures, solids, Dohm and Hatch sound machines, dad puts to sleep, mom puts to spring, dream feeds, “le pause”, a lovey, I could go on and on. We are trying. It’s all I think about. Trust me, the urgency of helping my child get enough sleep and avoid cognitive decline is not lost on me.

Despite her not getting enough sleep, she’s very happy and always wakes up happy, almost never cries, and is hitting her all milestones. I think that’s why pediatricians are blowing us off.

Sorry, I think I misunderstood part of the thread - I thought you said somewhere your child was tired and unhappy all day. But she’s actually happy, well rested, and meeting her milestones? So why do you say she’s not getting enough sleep?

OP here: She was unhappy all day when we tried co-sleeping for two weeks because she slept so unbelievably poorly.

And to the pp who asked about her total sleep, most days it’s 11 hours total so not enough: 8-9 at night, and 2-3 of naps (she still does 4 naps because she’ll only sleep 40 minutes and will only nap being held, which I’m also in total despair about and have tried many times to fix).

[Anonymous]

We attempted CIO with my son but it didn’t work. Looking back I wonder if he had a milk intolerance because he had horrible colic and just cried all the time and was super gassy at night, but oh well. Anyway, he started sleeping through the night around 2. We managed because I am a SAHM and was able to nap with him during the day -I would nurse him sitting up in bed and then slide down next to him when he fell asleep. And my DH took him for 2 hours in the morning while I slept, and then I slept a lot on weekends. He also was not ever into co-sleeping, except for some reason it was okay for naps. Second baby we didn’t attempt to sleep train, but she loved co-sleeping, so we did that and she started sleeping thru the night around age 2 also. Not sure why that was the magical age for both kids.

[Anonymous]

OP, have you considered that adamance against sleep training is tied to your own lack of sleep? That's pretty much what happened in our case- my spouse was dead set against it, but eventually it was clear we needed to do something.

You know sleeping training is more than just pure extinction, right?